Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby GWvsJohn » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:22 pm

And the futility continues...

Lilwik wrote:A chief is like a ruler for natural allies, and we've never seen a ruler who wasn't a commander. I think there's a pretty good reason for that. Who would want to be ruled by someone like Wrigley of Summer Update 34 and B2T24? He really doesn't have the capacity to lead anyone, and all it would take are some shmuckers to promote him to warlord just like Stanley was promoted to warlord, and then I'm pretty sure he would instantly gain all the skills and abilities that all warlords have.


We have only seen one chief explicitly (as far as I remember) and that's Vurp. What do we know about Vurp? Not much really, mainly that he was a member of the Knights in Stanley's Service. Now it's certainly possible that the "Knights" part of that is merely poetic license, but it's more likely (IMO) that's it's literal, and they are all Knight class infantry. We know they're "the top units in all the regiments." Certainly seems like they aren't Commanders if they're referred to like that.

Lilwik wrote:]It's really hard to say why barbarian casters in the Magic Kingdom don't pop units using shmuckers. I agree that we can assume barbarians can do it because it is surely necessary for barbarians to survive, but there's several reason why it might not happen in the Magic Kingdom. For one thing, if it is possible it would be illegal. For another, the Magic Kingdom itself might prevent it. On the other hand I like the idea that casters are specially unable to do it. It seems to me that each Erfworlder must have a personal menu of things that he can pop by spending shmuckers and this is how Erfworlders fill their incidental needs for things like beds and tents when making camp, and warlords probably have troops of various kinds on their menus, while a caster creates troops by entirely different means. Several disciplines can create a kind of golem: Dirtamancy, Dollamancy, Hat Magic, and who knows what other disciplines. Flower Power can create tree monsters if they need units to lead. I bet they could do all of that in the Magic Kingdom; they just don't because it is illegal and no one really wants to fight there anyway, so I doubt that the Magic Kingdom needs to magically stop barbarian casters from using shmuckers to pop stabbers. Even if a caster wanted to pop a stabber, a caster doesn't know anything about commanding a stabber and so probably doesn't have stabbers on the menu.


This paragraph makes me want to gouge my eyes out. The amount of wild speculation you do on a regular basis really is infuriating. You've taken a relatively simple idea, namely that Natural Allies pop units in a different way than Capital sides, by spending Shmuckers directly, and taken it to ridiculous extremes. There is zero, I repeat zero evidence that any Man-like unit, under any circumstance, can pop units other than through the standard city mechanic. Now you're speculating that Casters can pop units using Shmuckers, when we have already seen how Casters make units, using juice to make golems.

I feel like I'm at point where I should foe you to save my sanity, but I really hope you can be redeemed.
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:18 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:This paragraph makes me want to gouge my eyes out. The amount of wild speculation you do on a regular basis really is infuriating. You've taken a relatively simple idea, namely that Natural Allies pop units in a different way than Capital sides, by spending Shmuckers directly, and taken it to ridiculous extremes. There is zero, I repeat zero evidence that any Man-like unit, under any circumstance, can pop units other than through the standard city mechanic. Now you're speculating that Casters can pop units using Shmuckers, when we have already seen how Casters make units, using juice to make golems.

I feel like I'm at point where I should foe you to save my sanity, but I really hope you can be redeemed.

To be fair, he was saying that casters can't pop units with schmuckers, because they do it with juice instead.

I doubt however that barbarians can pop units from schmcukers, since Jillian mentioned how her remaining units kept slowly dwindling with no way to replace them while she was a barbarian.
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:33 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I doubt however that barbarians can pop units from schmuckers, since Jillian mentioned how her remaining units kept slowly dwindling with no way to replace them while she was a barbarian.
That would be very interesting. Does anyone remember where that happened? It might just mean that popping units was too expensive, but I guess that might depend on how it was phrased exactly. If she really had no way of popping units then that means that barbarians are unsustainable; the croaked and disbanded can never be replaced and so even if a ruler survives the loss of his capital he is on an inevitable downward spiral, unless he gets very lucky like Banhammer.

In searching for it I found Summer Update 41 where it is mentioned that Jillian originally had 4 megalogwiffs when Faq fell, then quickly lost them. It doesn't say anything about being able to replace them or not, unfortunately.
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:01 pm

I believe that was the update I was remembering, as I specifically remember the megalogwiffs as being part of it. I know there was another one talking about having to disband units to make upkeep and such, but I don't remember it saying anything about getting more units either. Although cost may well have been a concern, I find it really unlikely that in all that time she never did well enough to pop another of the most powerful unit she has access to for a while. After all, having a strong unit like that would make her a much more attractive hire as a merc.

But you are right, it doesn't say that she couldn't replace them, just that she never did.
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Omnimancer » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:25 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I believe that was the update I was remembering, as I specifically remember the megalogwiffs as being part of it. I know there was another one talking about having to disband units to make upkeep and such, but I don't remember it saying anything about getting more units either. Although cost may well have been a concern, I find it really unlikely that in all that time she never did well enough to pop another of the most powerful unit she has access to for a while. After all, having a strong unit like that would make her a much more attractive hire as a merc.

But you are right, it doesn't say that she couldn't replace them, just that she never did.


It's also possible that instead of popping new gwiffs, she captured and tamed wild ones. That might be the only option for barbarians without cities. Or maybe they can buy one from a side that pops them, perhaps as barter for service.
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Lipkin » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:25 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:
Lilwik wrote:]It's really hard to say why barbarian casters in the Magic Kingdom don't pop units using shmuckers. I agree that we can assume barbarians can do it because it is surely necessary for barbarians to survive, but there's several reason why it might not happen in the Magic Kingdom. For one thing, if it is possible it would be illegal. For another, the Magic Kingdom itself might prevent it. On the other hand I like the idea that casters are specially unable to do it. It seems to me that each Erfworlder must have a personal menu of things that he can pop by spending shmuckers and this is how Erfworlders fill their incidental needs for things like beds and tents when making camp, and warlords probably have troops of various kinds on their menus, while a caster creates troops by entirely different means. Several disciplines can create a kind of golem: Dirtamancy, Dollamancy, Hat Magic, and who knows what other disciplines. Flower Power can create tree monsters if they need units to lead. I bet they could do all of that in the Magic Kingdom; they just don't because it is illegal and no one really wants to fight there anyway, so I doubt that the Magic Kingdom needs to magically stop barbarian casters from using shmuckers to pop stabbers. Even if a caster wanted to pop a stabber, a caster doesn't know anything about commanding a stabber and so probably doesn't have stabbers on the menu.

Sidenote: We know making Golems requires material components. Do we think juice cost for golem construction could be drastically reduced by having non-magical units do the menial labor? I'm assuming Sizemore uses juice to manipulate rock or whatever into golem shape. Could a twoll do that instead, and just have Sizemore animate it once it's formed?
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:02 pm

Lipkin wrote:We know making Golems requires material components. Do we think juice cost for golem construction could be drastically reduced by having non-magical units do the menial labor? I'm assuming Sizemore uses juice to manipulate rock or whatever into golem shape. Could a twoll do that instead, and just have Sizemore animate it once it's formed?
Unfortunately we've never seen any details about making golems, but I would be very surprised if shaping material into the form of a person is a large portion of the work involved. There's a huge difference between an inuksuk and a robot. A twoll could pile up rocks, but the Dirtamancer still needs to do whatever magic goes on inside the rocks to cause them to move like a person, and I can only imagine that magic must be very complicated like the mechanisms of a robot.
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:11 pm

Lipkin wrote:Sidenote: We know making Golems requires material components. Do we think juice cost for golem construction could be drastically reduced by having non-magical units do the menial labor? I'm assuming Sizemore uses juice to manipulate rock or whatever into golem shape. Could a twoll do that instead, and just have Sizemore animate it once it's formed?

Well, we know that shaping rock and such does cost juice, but based on what we've seen Sizemore do, I don't think it is a very significant amount. Having a fabrication unit do the basic formation first might save a tiny amount, but I'd imagine that compared to the cost of animation in the first place, it wouldn't even really register. And actually, the golems have to constantly reshape themselves just to move, so the initial shaping is likely just part of the new ability of changing shape inherent in their animation, so it might not save anything at all after all.

I often think of the casters as having something like 1000 juice per level, or somewhere around there, with things as minor as the shaping of a golem (if it isn't fully within the animation itself) as only costing a couple points or so, maybe up to 5-10 at most. That is, of course, pure speculation on my part.
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Lipkin » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:12 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:We know making Golems requires material components. Do we think juice cost for golem construction could be drastically reduced by having non-magical units do the menial labor? I'm assuming Sizemore uses juice to manipulate rock or whatever into golem shape. Could a twoll do that instead, and just have Sizemore animate it once it's formed?
Unfortunately we've never seen any details about making golems, but I would be very surprised if shaping material into the form of a person is a large portion of the work involved. There's a huge difference between an inuksuk and a robot. A twoll could pile up rocks, but the Dirtamancer still needs to do whatever magic goes on inside the rocks to cause them to move like a person, and I can only imagine that magic must be very complicated like the mechanisms of a robot.

We saw Wanda make a snow golem. We know Ace was ordered to use Holly's patterns for golems. If Twolls were used to create cloth golems...?

Or could a corpse be repaired with needle and thread before being animated?
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby drachefly » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:51 pm

I expect that would add to the 'attention paid', which might be useful if croakamancer-attention is at a premium, which it seems it often would be.
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Beeskee » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:01 am

It seems like the question of how units pop was answered back in book 1:

B1P43: Units are produced in cities. By cities!

This came right after Wanda's "What is a 'child?'" line. I think Parson would have covered every angle of "Can a unit be produced without a city?" type of questions in the conversation that followed.

( I'm guessing that's why the possibility of unexpected offspring didn't even come up as one of his objections to fooling around with a decrypted Archon in that awkward conversation with Maggie. :D )

Heavy speculation warning:
Certain units might have the ability to pop units without direct control of a city. It's possible Barbarians can be given temporary control of a production queue to pop their own units. Jillian could have used such a method to replenish her gwiffons. Alternately they could somehow produce units without a city, maybe at a greater cost. Nothing even remotely mentioned in the story supports any of that.

It's all the more likely Jillian found a side that pops gwiffons and bought some or did free or discounted work for the side to replenish her losses. That doesn't need any new rules. Alternately, she hadn't been replenishing anything and was slowly losing all her units. She didn't take all of them on each trip since we see her losing lots of gwiffons, and she has more the next day. Surely they don't pop that fast? And there's never a mention about replacement costs or new gwiffons, not even an aside about extra expense charges to Jetstone.

On B1:P86 we see "Barbarian (19)" - I always thought that was Jillian, some gwiffons, and some other barbarians that were never mentioned, but it could easily be Jillian and 18 gwiffons. :D
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Re: Feral/Barbarian Casters & Warlords

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:33 am

Beeskee wrote:This came right after Wanda's "What is a 'child?'" line. I think Parson would have covered every angle of "Can a unit be produced without a city?" type of questions in the conversation that followed.
Whether he asked that or not, we know that units can pop without a city. Barbarians will pop at random according to Word of the Titans 6051503 and we also know that natural allies can turn shmuckers into units.

Beeskee wrote:Alternately they could somehow produce units without a city, maybe at a greater cost. Nothing even remotely mentioned in the story supports any of that.
There is B2T4 where it's mentioned that natural allies turn shmuckers into units, and it's not said in a way that makes it sound like that is a special power that only natural allies have. If natural allies can do it, then it's possible that everyone can do it. I don't think we've ever heard anything to suggest that some people can't do it. Maybe they can and just choose not to because it is too expensive.
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