The REAL War

[Housellama]

NOW we're getting down to business. We've got another piece on the board and now things are about to get very, very interesting.

First, a history lesson. For a long time, there were only two serious 'players' on the board: Parson and Charlie. They were the only ones who displayed any sort of real grasp on strategy and tactics. For the longest time in Erfworld, Charlie had the place to himself. He could play one side off the other and sit back with his Spy Satellite of Awesome (aka, the Arkendish) and run the world. As long as he kept the little sides fighting each other, all he had to do was sit back and rake in the cash.

Then Parson showed up. Charlie was first interested in him as an asset. He saw him showing an unusual level of ability for an Erfworlder and decided to say hi. Parson, being the clever guy he was, tried to see if Charlie could be used as an asset to HIM. Can't have two captains on one boat. Charlie wrote him off, figuring that GK's position was so weak that it didn't MATTER how good Parson was. He negotiated for Parson's capture, figuring that he could grab him and turn him when GK went down. Except GK didn't go down, and not only did Charlie lose, but he made GK stronger in the process. That pissed him off. So he started probing a little bit.

The more he saw of Parson, the more impressed he became. And pissed off started to turn into concern. Here was a guy who didn't have all the advantages he had, yet was taking his puppets to pieces, seemingly without effort. No matter what happened, there was an answer for it, usually on the same turn. So he made a deal with Jillian. He invested heavily into her, and had plans for taking away Parson's main tool. What happens? She turns on him after getting what she wants, forcing Charlie into the closest thing to direct action we've ever seen from him. To add insult to injury, it doesn't work.

Then Tram comes into the picture. We've seen Tram before, and we've seen hints that he knows what he's doing. The turning point though, is the moment that he turns on Slately. He lays it out for him in cold, hard facts. Despite what his king may think, they are neck deep in crap, and it's raining boopholes. That's when you realize that there's another player on the board. Tram is capable of playing on the level with Charlie and Parson.

Before, we had a two way fight. Sure, there was other wars going on, but they were simply the board through which the large game was played. Charlie hasn't moved directly against Parson, ever. He moved through intermediaries and puppets. But Tram... Tram has, and will, move against him. AND, Tram doesn't trust Charlie as far as he can throw him. Now we have a three way fight. This is where things start to get really interesting.

[the_tick_rules]

Tram is clever, but I would say he lacks the same lateral thinking as Parson.

[Ditto]

Also, however clever Tram is, he's at the helm of a battered side. Jetstone isn't going to challenge Charlescomm on its own any time soon. They're barely able to handle just GK's decrypted archons. If Charlie really wanted to screw with them (like he threaten to with Haggar, which is an indication of Charlie's muscle), then they'd be toast.

[GaryThunder]

Also, however clever Tram is, he's at the helm of a battered side. Jetstone isn't going to challenge Charlescomm on its own any time soon. They're barely able to handle just GK's decrypted archons. If Charlie really wanted to screw with them (like he threaten to with Haggar, which is an indication of Charlie's muscle), then they'd be toast.

Of course. It's not as if one brilliant warlord could save a side barely clinging to life against a vastly powerful opponent or anything.

[Thunder]

in all fairness parson really only kinda postponed GKs death.
think about it after the volcano the side basically consisted of the casters a couple of guys and what was left of Stanley's troops


in reality 2 things saved them
1) the pliers giving GK a free massive instant army
2) TV randomly deciding that the massively overpowered warlord group which was a turn from GK should not infact finish off stanley and his side but rather all head home because having jillian meet there king was of the utmost importance.

dont get me wrong parson pulled off the imposible but he didn't really win, only stalled. he is now however winning because of the above 2, the second of which pisses me off more than anything because TV planed to fight GK anyway using jillian, but apparently needed her to be queen before she could fight or something

seriously has there ever been any explanation for why TV didn't just wipe out GK that ive missed because i would really REALLY like to hear one

[ftl]

seriously has there ever been any explanation for why TV didn't just wipe out GK that ive missed because i would really REALLY like to hear one

They had no idea what happened. All that they learned was that all their allies' units had just been wiped out in a single dirtamancy trap. They had no units left there to see what exactly was going on, and thus didn't know that GK was really weak for a moment.

Would you charge blindly into a battlefield, when they only thing you know is that your allies SHOULD have had enough units to take the city easily, and instead somehow managed to get their entire coalition wiped out by an unknown force?

[GaryThunder]

2) TV randomly deciding that the massively overpowered warlord group which was a turn from GK should not infact finish off stanley and his side but rather all head home because having jillian meet there king was of the utmost importance.

Now...to be fair, they were one turn away to Stanley and his ridiculously high-move dwagons. Even given that he made the trip on partial move, I don't think the TV warlords have the 40+ move they might need to get from the pass to GK. Jillian's gwiffon might, but she ain't taking the city alone.

Also, consider: Transylvito's part in the GK fight didn't seem to be very significant. Their entire contribution to the RCC1 was Vinny (and that really seemed more like personal loyalty from Vinny than Don's official force deployment) until the battle of the pass, which was openly not an action against Stanley in particular but effectively a land grab, using Stanley's impending arrival as bait to lure in Jillian so they could force her to reveal Faq's location. Remember, this was back before Don King gave a crap about Royalty. I highly doubt he cared enough about the outcome of this fight to risk seven or eight warlords, a huge amount of bats, and Caesar.

And as for the fact that they had no idea what happened, well, I'll let Don speak for himself:

"[E]xactly what happened at the battle for Gobwin Knob?...Nobody knows. What it was, or what we're dealing with there. And you do not strike out at an unknown threat from a position of strength and security."

[Thunder]

Would you charge blindly into a battlefield, when they only thing you know is that your allies SHOULD have had enough units to take the city easily, and instead somehow managed to get their entire coalition wiped out by an unknown force?

they could do exactly what vinny did for ansom, go right up to the hex and sent in a scout bat, they had hundreds im sure they could spare one. they new it was a trap which got there allies and where, so as long as they didn't go in to the trapped area they would be fine if they just went near the volcano. its not like they had anything to fear from Stanley or his dragons, they wiped the floor with them, and they had suffered since then.

[GaryThunder]

Would you charge blindly into a battlefield, when they only thing you know is that your allies SHOULD have had enough units to take the city easily, and instead somehow managed to get their entire coalition wiped out by an unknown force?

they could do exactly what vinny did for ansom, go right up to the hex and sent in a scout bat, they had hundreds im sure they could spare one. they new it was a trap which got there allies and where, so as long as they didn't go in to the trapped area they would be fine if they just went near the volcano. its not like they had anything to fear from Stanley or his dragons, they wiped the floor with them, and they had suffered since then.

Bats have 22 move. Could they have gotten to GK? What about the warlords? Remember how much move dwagons have, and that it took Stanley two turns on dwagonback just to get to the gap.

Besides, as I said, they simply didn't care enough to risk Caesar and the big chunk of their leadership that was still hanging around. Recall that they just lost three warlords and a couple dozen bats or so for, basically, nothing. They didn't kill Stanley and they didn't find Faq. I can't imagine either Caesar or Don King being sanguine about charging into GK after they had failed so completely at the pass.

[oslecamo2]

Before, we had a two way fight. Sure, there was other wars going on, but they were simply the board through which the large game was played. Charlie hasn't moved directly against Parson, ever. He moved through intermediaries and puppets. But Tram... Tram has, and will, move against him. AND, Tram doesn't trust Charlie as far as he can throw him. Now we have a three way fight. This is where things start to get really interesting.

Eerr, it was always a multiple-way battle.

-Jetstone's previous leaders may have not been tactical genius (and honestly, the new one isn't either as he's been walking right into Hamster's traps so far), but they were still a pretty damn powerfull side with their own agenda. Charlie didn't throw Ansom after Stanley, Ansom himself hated Stanley for personal reasons.
-We have also Jillian the wild card that could've finished Wanda twice by now, but didn't for personal reasons.
-Finally we have the mancers ploting their own master plan behind the scenes all this time, only to see things not go exactly as planned.

Now, you also have to take in acount that altough neither Trams or Charlie exactly trust each other, they really don't want to go at each other throats when Hamster is outmaneuvering them both at every turn. Charlie has been actually supporting Jetstone so far. In a three-way battle Charlie would be trying to sabotage Trams as well.

[Thunder]

I can't imagine either Caesar or Don King being sanguine about charging into GK after they had failed so completely at the pass.

wait i thought they slaughtered stanley at the pass, he had to turn tail and run, jack was the only thing which kept him alive

[GaryThunder]

I can't imagine either Caesar or Don King being sanguine about charging into GK after they had failed so completely at the pass.

wait i thought they slaughtered stanley at the pass, he had to turn tail and run, jack was the only thing which kept him alive

The damage they inflicted on Stanley's troops was irrelevant. Their objective was to croak Stanley, but the Foolamancer played a fast one and Stanley got away. Therefore, they completely failed. Attrition on Stanley's forces was never an objective of Transylvito, they were seeking to decapitate but they lost their shot.

And they had no way of knowing that Stanley didn't have fifty more dwagons back at GK that he didn't or couldn't bring with him for some reason. Their information blackout on the GK fight was the biggest reason that it wasn't worth a risk, not after hearing how an entire ridiculous army got burned up in one action.

[Thunder]

hence the bats. seriously a simple scout would be all they needed. they only needed to fear this trap, as they had taken stanleys strongest and lost nothing

and my point was that they had the strength to take Stanley out thats why i needed to clarify your claim that they lost.

seriously this claim about not knowing is not really relevant. If it were relevant than why should they ever fight stanley, they will never have complete knowledge of him so then why are they fighting him now? it would be better to attack your opponent when he is next to death rather than allow him to regain his strength no?

[GaryThunder]

hence the bats. seriously a simple scout would be all they needed. they only needed to fear this trap, as they had taken stanleys strongest and lost nothing

and my point was that they had the strength to take Stanley out thats why i needed to clarify your claim that they lost.

seriously this claim about not knowing is not really relevant. If it were relevant than why should they ever fight stanley, they will never have complete knowledge of him so then why are they fighting him now? it would be better to attack your opponent when he is next to death rather than allow him to regain his strength no?

The claim about not knowing is relevant to Don King, who said it in his own words: "[E]xactly what happened at the battle for Gobwin Knob?...Nobody knows. What it was, or what we're dealing with there. And you do not strike out at an unknown threat from a position of strength and security."

And you keep missing the point: GK was not Transylvito's opponent. Transylvito didn't give a crap about GK or this whole Western conflict. Only Vinny tagged along in the RCC1, and that was out of personal loyalty to Ansom. The one action Transylvito got seriously into was the fight at the pass, which was specifically not an action against GK, but an action to seize Jillian's old capital site. See?

"No goin' after him. And no goin' back ta Gobwin Knob until you show us your capital site, and we claim it. That's why Caesar came. He din't believe you about Stanley. He came to find out about yer cities. M'sorry."

You seem to be confusing objectives here. Remember Parson's famous rant on strategy? "First, you have a goal. Then you list objectives in support of that goal, in order of importance." Transylvito's goal was never to smash GK or even to kill Stanley. Transylvito's goal was to take the ruins of Faq. Stanley's death was a tertiary objective or lower on that chart, occurring mostly by surprise and good fortune, and hauling off to GK with a huge chunk of their military force where, for all they know, a damn nuke just went off was nowhere on that list of objectives.

[Lamech]

hence the bats. seriously a simple scout would be all they needed. they only needed to fear this trap, as they had taken stanleys strongest and lost nothing

and my point was that they had the strength to take Stanley out thats why i needed to clarify your claim that they lost.

seriously this claim about not knowing is not really relevant. If it were relevant than why should they ever fight stanley, they will never have complete knowledge of him so then why are they fighting him now? it would be better to attack your opponent when he is next to death rather than allow him to regain his strength no?

They aren't Stanley's opponent. They never were. It was a free bonus. I mean arkenhammer? Or better yet, capture and brainwash?
Nor is GK weak using what they know. The entire army just got destroyed. At the very least a huge army of undead is there. And point of fact, GK was not weak. We don't know why Don said they didn't know what happened. He might not have sent a scout, or he may have and had it destroyed. He may have and saw GK, with countless archers (elves which GK can't have btw) to stop an air assult and a pool of lava to pour on ground forces. Nor could he trust said scout since, foolamancer, and that pool of lava shouldn't be their.

[Housellama]

Before, we had a two way fight. Sure, there was other wars going on, but they were simply the board through which the large game was played. Charlie hasn't moved directly against Parson, ever. He moved through intermediaries and puppets. But Tram... Tram has, and will, move against him. AND, Tram doesn't trust Charlie as far as he can throw him. Now we have a three way fight. This is where things start to get really interesting.

Eerr, it was always a multiple-way battle.

-Jetstone's previous leaders may have not been tactical genius (and honestly, the new one isn't either as he's been walking right into Hamster's traps so far), but they were still a pretty damn powerfull side with their own agenda. Charlie didn't throw Ansom after Stanley, Ansom himself hated Stanley for personal reasons.
-We have also Jillian the wild card that could've finished Wanda twice by now, but didn't for personal reasons.
-Finally we have the mancers ploting their own master plan behind the scenes all this time, only to see things not go exactly as planned.

Now, you also have to take in acount that altough neither Trams or Charlie exactly trust each other, they really don't want to go at each other throats when Hamster is outmaneuvering them both at every turn. Charlie has been actually supporting Jetstone so far. In a three-way battle Charlie would be trying to sabotage Trams as well.

I don't consider Jetstone as a factor up until now. Jetstone and the RCC was a way to break Parson in. They weren't a factor. Charlie... was. Charlie has been. Right now, I see three sides. The first was Charlie, all on his own. Then Parson entered the scene as the hippymancer's etc Warlord poster boy. Charlie, through the RCC, got his butt handed to him on a plate. He didn't like that. Through the text updates, we see that Charlie is using the GK offensive to gather more info on Parson. Then with the siege of SR, Tram starts to shine. He plays Charlie at his own game and gets info about Parson, and then recognizes Parson's unconventional move for what it is. Jetstone has been a playing piece for Charlie until Tram took the helm. NOW they are a player in their own right.

Jillian and Wanda... are wild cards. Heh. You can't plan for them. They are going to do what they are going to do. But as far as strategic players in Erfworld, far as I saw it, there were two. Tram makes three.

[Housellama]

And you keep missing the point: GK was not Transylvito's opponent. Transylvito didn't give a crap about GK or this whole Western conflict. Only Vinny tagged along in the RCC1, and that was out of personal loyalty to Ansom. The one action Transylvito got seriously into was the fight at the pass, which was specifically not an action against GK, but an action to seize Jillian's old capital site. See?

"No goin' after him. And no goin' back ta Gobwin Knob until you show us your capital site, and we claim it. That's why Caesar came. He din't believe you about Stanley. He came to find out about yer cities. M'sorry."

You seem to be confusing objectives here. Remember Parson's famous rant on strategy? "First, you have a goal. Then you list objectives in support of that goal, in order of importance." Transylvito's goal was never to smash GK or even to kill Stanley. Transylvito's goal was to take the ruins of Faq. Stanley's death was a tertiary objective or lower on that chart, occurring mostly by surprise and good fortune, and hauling off to GK with a huge chunk of their military force where, for all they know, a damn nuke just went off was nowhere on that list of objectives.

Someone's been paying attention! They sent their Chief Warlord to take Jillian's cities. Stanley was a convenient excuse to grab a capital site and a couple cities for gratis. Caesar was there to make sure that Jillian behaved herself. She was supposed to lead them to the site, which they would then take possession of, to hold them safely from GK until the conflict was complete. Or whatever other convenient excuse came to mind. The only reason they would want to stop Stanley is so that they could grab it before he did.

[Thunder]

1) TV was there to only take the cities initially

im not trying to argue this point because it is irrelevant to my point

after Don decided that they didn't want jillians cities and would rather have her join him as queen to fight Stanly (which happened after the eruption but before he told Cesar to return with her) that is when he was committed to fighting stanley and he thought the best way to do this was to give jillian her old side back and turn her lose.

clearly before he got them to return to TV to talk to jillian he decided he was going to fight stanley, which is why i say it makes no sense not to atleast scout his capital, at the moment when it was most weakened (he may not know how GK took out the coalition but if ever they were at a weak point it would be right after almost loosing to the RCC.)

[GaryThunder]

We then come to the point of "Is the pass within one turn's move for the warlords or the bats?" We know bats have lower move than dwagons, Vinny's had 22. Warlords presumably have even less move than that. Stanley wasn't able to get to the pass within one turn on dwagonback, as he had to halt overnight, which gave Caesar's group time to arrive. Since Don King only agreed to send Caesar's group the night before, the logical implication is that the pass is within one turn's move for the warlords from Transylvito, if not the capital than at least some significant holding of Transylvito's, that ten warlords were able to assemble there within one turn.

If the warlords were able to get to GK in one turn's move from the pass, that would then imply that GK is just two turns' move away from Transylvito for the warlords, who definitely don't have a move stat comparable to that of a dwagon. (Would Vinny have more than twice the move of his bats?) That's...awfully close for two empires, especially considering how little either seems to care about the other. You care more than that about your neighbor, especially if your neighbor has A. an artifact or B. a hugely overpowered flying attack force.

Edit: Even if it's just the bats that are able to get to GK in one turn from the pass, if we use Vinny's bats as a standard, that implies that Transylvito (at least the mustering point for Caesar's group) is a maximum of 44 move points (not hexes, as some hexes require multiple move points) from GK's capital. That's within one turn's move for a dwagon. If they're that close together, why hasn't Stanley ever acted against Transylvito, as belligerent as he is? Even though they don't control an Arkentool, if you can get there in one turn, it just makes sense to sally forth.

[Thunder]

stanley doesn't make sense, but thats explained away as him just being stupid. but once again irrelevant

as for the bats, they seemed to get to the battle against Stanley so they seem to be able to move quite fast since as you say they were told to move out only a turn before. and they kept up with the warlords on the return trip. im guessing they can stow away inside the warlords much like individuals can mount certain beasts.

as for the total movement of the group of warlords if you want to work it out i think Jillian comments about the relative movement of her mounts vs them, and the amount of turns difference could be used to estimate there speeds.

although id still argue that even if it takes more than one turn for the warlords, it still makes sense for them to move in as i have stated and you have ignored, Don clearly wants to fight GK and so it makes the most sense to attack when they are weakest (right after the RCC) and before they can rebuild.


as for your comment about that being accepted and now were on to bat movement, others still aren't here yet and i was addressing them.