The REAL War

[GaryThunder]

stanley doesn't make sense, but thats explained away as him just being stupid. but once again irrelevant

as for the bats, they seemed to get to the battle against Stanley so they seem to be able to move quite fast since as you say they were told to move out only a turn before. and they kept up with the warlords on the return trip. im guessing they can stow away inside the warlords much like individuals can mount certain beasts.

as for the total movement of the group of warlords if you want to work it out i think Jillian comments about the relative movement of her mounts vs them, and the amount of turns difference could be used to estimate there speeds.

although id still argue that even if it takes more than one turn for the warlords, it still makes sense for them to move in as i have stated and you have ignored, Don clearly wants to fight GK and so it makes the most sense to attack when they are weakest (right after the RCC) and before they can rebuild.


as for your comment about that being accepted and now were on to bat movement, others still aren't here yet and i was addressing them.

You still aren't grasping Transylvito's exact motives here. Don King doesn't like Stanley, but Royalty wasn't such a big thing for Don until after the cataclysm at GK. As long as Stanley was a threat being taken into hand by strong Royal sides, Stanley was little more than a gadfly. But with the destruction of the RCC1, Stanley's claims of supremacy over Royalty suddenly sting a lot harder for everyone who's a Royal. Here, Don King implies that his new plan for Jillian has been heavily influenced not just by the events at GK but by Slately:

"Prince Ansom...cared a lot about that," she said. She took a deep breath, When she let it out, it stuttered a little bit.

"His father does, too," said Don King, sounding a bit kinder now. "We've been talking, he and I."

Stanley upgraded himself from a pest to a serious threat in one trap action. What if he started using his victory as a rallying point, perhaps even convincing other sides to stand against Royalty by pointing to the victory as proof of his divine mandate? And yet, immediately going over and squashing Stanley wasn't an option. The information blackout wasn't something that could be overcome by spending a bat. Even if Transylvito learned what was going on in GK a turn or two after the battle, that still didn't explain how they had managed to destroy the RCC1 through methods that should, by all rights, be impossible. Don King has no way of knowing that it was a link - does he even know how links work? Even if he does, does he know GK had a Thinkamancer and a Croakamancer? All Don King knows is that GK somehow broke the rules to nuke an overwhelmingly powerful army in one shot, and that he was not interested in venturing a much-less-powerful force into the same space immediately after.

Don King was playing a more conservative game. Rather than immediately striking out against Stanley, he chose to sit back and consolidate his strength by installing what he hoped would be a powerful Royal ally. They would need as many Royal sides as possible to bring the fight to GK again, especially in light of the fact that GK somehow had the capability to nuke whole armies. Jillian was the perfect person for the situation - a Royal who had a personal stake in the fight against Stanley, a powerful and wild woman, who was martially minded and fierce as a tiger. Don King had no interest in recklessly sending his inchoate Queen over to GK to possibly get her face melted off by an unknown but horrifying threat, when she could be much more useful given time and space to re-establish her kingdom and her strength. Don didn't keep his throne by playing things risky. (Notice how, once he started playing things risky by funneling far more resources into Jillian than he could afford, things started crumbling for Transylvito?)

Don's increased Royal mandate as a result of Slately's influence and the destruction of the RCC1 didn't mean that he instantly had to drop everything and crush Stanley. Instead, he chose to bolster Royal strength, trying to win by making himself stronger rather than making his enemy weaker. He had no way of knowing that Decryption meant that GK could build up much, much faster than he was capable of matching, but Decryption was kept very secret by GK for a long time for a reason. Don's actions were reasonable and measured given the information he had available and the motives of his character.

[ftl]

Would you charge blindly into a battlefield, when they only thing you know is that your allies SHOULD have had enough units to take the city easily, and instead somehow managed to get their entire coalition wiped out by an unknown force?

they could do exactly what vinny did for ansom, go right up to the hex and sent in a scout bat, they had hundreds im sure they could spare one. they new it was a trap which got there allies and where,

They didn't know where it was. They knew it was multi-hex, and they had no idea what the limits of it were.

Likewise, they had no way of knowing that the multi-hex dirtamancy trap ALSO wiped out all of GK's units. And if they went to the city site, even if they could get to it, they'd have to end turn right next to it if it turned out to be too heavily guarded to take. They weren't one hex away, like with Ansom's bat, they were far away, possibly more than one turn away.

[Thunder]

Don King was playing a more conservative game. Rather than immediately striking out against Stanley, he chose to sit back and consolidate his strength by installing what he hoped would be a powerful Royal ally. They would need as many Royal sides as possible to bring the fight to GK again, especially in light of the fact that GK somehow had the capability to nuke whole armies. Jillian was the perfect person for the situation - a Royal who had a personal stake in the fight against Stanley, a powerful and wild woman, who was martially minded and fierce as a tiger. Don King had no interest in recklessly sending his inchoate Queen over to GK to possibly get her face melted off by an unknown but horrifying threat, when she could be much more useful given time and space to re-establish her kingdom and her strength. Don didn't keep his throne by playing things risky. (Notice how, once he started playing things risky by funneling far more resources into Jillian than he could afford, things started crumbling for Transylvito?)

Why does jilian establishing her kingdom somehow strengthen TV position over GK if he knows full well that any strength added is strength removed from himself. furthermore you still cant explain away how letting Stanley regroup is somehow better than finishing him off.
as far as knowing the cause of the loss either he knows it was a trap, across multiple hexs which did in the RCC, granted he knows very little about its mechanics and trigger, but here is something, he knows stanley has almost lost to the RCC, he knows he was beaten to one city, and he knows he just stopped the RCC from finishing him off. he also knows that Stanley ran because even stanley didn't think that GK could be held. which would indicate that this trap was a last ditch effort, something that isn't reliable or perhaps has a high cost. either way he knows stanley took off with what strength he had, which his forces easily overcame. Knowing just this he should have struck at stanley in this incredibly weakened condition IF he intended to strike at GK. Which he did as he planned to use jillian by setting her up to fight him (which is incredibly foolish as far as Cesar and myself would argue but that is neither here nor relevant.)

As for this bat move thing, seriously if it takes them what 3 turns to reach there capital from the turn and a half that stanley is away from GK then either TV is remarcably close to GK or those bats can move faster than 22 when they are with their warlords, i mentioned how you could calculate a more exact time frame for there trip from the choke point to GK, calculate it out if you dont think its feasible, but remember jillian managed to get there before Stanley and she doesn't move much faster than the TV guys. (vinnie also flew along side her and he made it there before stanley as well with his bats so how ever far it is they should be able to match Stanleys retreat.

[oslecamo2]

I don't consider Jetstone as a factor up until now. Jetstone and the RCC was a way to break Parson in. They weren't a factor. Charlie... was. Charlie has been. Right now, I see three sides. The first was Charlie, all on his own. Then Parson entered the scene as the hippymancer's etc Warlord poster boy. Charlie, through the RCC, got his butt handed to him on a plate. He didn't like that. Through the text updates, we see that Charlie is using the GK offensive to gather more info on Parson. Then with the siege of SR, Tram starts to shine. He plays Charlie at his own game and gets info about Parson, and then recognizes Parson's unconventional move for what it is. Jetstone has been a playing piece for Charlie until Tram took the helm. NOW they are a player in their own right.

Jillian and Wanda... are wild cards. Heh. You can't plan for them. They are going to do what they are going to do. But as far as strategic players in Erfworld, far as I saw it, there were two. Tram makes three.

Trems makes another idiot for Hamster and Charlie to manipulate. His biggest achievment so far was realizing he was manipulated by Charlie (with a big help from Charlie himself and Jillian mind you), while ignoring the massive angry pink elephant in the room ready to crush him, aka Hamster.

"What's the worst that could happen?" That's NOT something a strategic player says and bases his survival upon.

Compare to big bro Ansom. He went with the third choice of hunting down the hunted dwagons that ended up with Wanda suffering a mental breakdown that almost costed Hamster the game. Then when the dancing zombie army arrived, Ansom quickly countered with a DDR combo.

What have been Trams actions meanwhile? Not delivering the killing blow while GK was vulnerable? Positioning his troops under the enemy flying siege? Following by shooting down his own troops so they couldn't finish off Wanda?

As a strategist, Trams actions have been epic failures after epic failures. He snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by playing right into Hamster's hands, ignored the (for once) sincere aid offered by Charlie, missed a second chance for croacking Wanda, and still doesn't take in acount Hamster can travel trough the Magic Kingdom and can pop up at any moment inside their capital.

Trams will have to do a lot more than shoot his own troops while leting the enemy main forces survive to be considered anywhere near the level of Hamster, Charlie, or heck, even Ansom or Don.

[Lamech]

What have been Trams actions meanwhile? Not delivering the killing blow while GK was vulnerable? Positioning his troops under the enemy flying siege? Following by shooting down his own troops so they couldn't finish off Wanda?

Killing blow? You mean Tram had someway of croaking Stanley or taking Gobwin Knob itself? 'Cause I must have missed that comic. GK is a terribly powerful side, and still getting massive numbers of dwagons? Remember? Or perhaps recall that Translovito is falling presently and Haggar wants to stab them in the back, and Jetstone doesn't even have the income to maintain its forces? Had Tram simply attacked things would have gone marginally better, but not by much. And in the end Jetstone would likely fall. A tiny gain. Also since this was considered a near certain victory, even bumping it all the way to a 100% would be a tiny gain.
On the other hand negotiating with GK shouldn't be too hard. They try it at every turn. They even gave away the big secret of decryption for a negotiation. (Until the royals learned about that all they knew was every unit they sent into battle ended up on GK's side; the royals couldn't even begin to attempt to counter.) They really, really want to deal. And that was when they could simply crush you. You stand to gain peace from GK, ensuring that they do not destroy you. This has a good chance of saving your side. A very large gain. So what option should have Tram picked? The large gain or the small?

Trems makes another idiot for Hamster and Charlie to manipulate. His biggest achievment so far was realizing he was manipulated by Charlie (with a big help from Charlie himself and Jillian mind you), while ignoring the massive angry pink elephant in the room ready to crush him, aka Hamster.

Wait what? You say he correctly identified Charlie's manipulations, and yet you believe he should have trusted Charlie? You don't trust people manipulating you. That is common-sense. Charlie was not trustworthy. Why would Tram trust him?

as far as knowing the cause of the loss either he knows it was a trap, across multiple hexs which did in the RCC, granted he knows very little about its mechanics and trigger, but here is something, he knows stanley has almost lost to the RCC, he knows he was beaten to one city, and he knows he just stopped the RCC from finishing him off. he also knows that Stanley ran because even stanley didn't think that GK could be held. which would indicate that this trap was a last ditch effort, something that isn't reliable or perhaps has a high cost.

Not knowing if something will work before you use it for the first time does not make it unreliable. For example; I have two power-cords, and I know one of them is broken, and one is new and functional but not which one. I try one, it works. Is that power-cord reliable? Of course it is.
Here it was a link. They are hard to do right and risky, but it seems that once you have one up if your careful you can maintain it for as long as you want. So in theory GK can now fire it as much as they want, and incinerate any assault. Sure it kills GK units but the Don doesn't know that. Maybe it was the atunement to the pliers. Maybe GK just wanted to wait for the whole coalition to get in range, and had to stash Stanley somewhere safe. Maybe Stanley was just being stupid. (He was, they could have grabbed Ansom and the pliers, and held the city with ease at that point.) So there are several possibilities that include GK being able to fire their weapon again, and again.
Two, the Don DOES know (or really freaking should) that GK has a croakamancer and that the coalition is at the very least uncroaked, and defending GK. Thats not exactly vulnerable. Especially since they have the arkenpliers for artifact bonus, and uncroaked Ansom for high leadership.
Three, point of fact GK was in no way shape or form weak. They had tons of money from the trap with which to hire Charlie, and the decrypted army. Don king made the right call in not attacking. Had he tried to rush GK would have croaked his airforce, and decrypted them in short order.

[GaryThunder]

As a strategist, Trams actions have been epic failures after epic failures. He snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by playing right into Hamster's hands, ignored the (for once) sincere aid offered by Charlie, missed a second chance for croacking Wanda, and still doesn't take in acount Hamster can travel trough the Magic Kingdom and can pop up at any moment inside their capital.

You are not properly understanding the distinction between "bad ideas" and "ideas that turn out badly." Tram has been making reasonably good decisions, given his inexperience at being in command and the frankly bizarre and unorthodox events of the day. It's not exactly his fault that Parson is able to pull off the seemingly impossible and turn an utterly helpless and caged army into a powerful invasion force. It wasn't just Tramennis - not one single unit in the battlespace had any conception of Parson's plan except those that he told, directly or indirectly. Hell, even Charlie thought GK was as good as captured until he overheard Parson's plan. If Charlie couldn't figure it out on his own, it seems a bit unfair to call Tramennis an idiot for not being able to work it out by himself.

[oslecamo2]

As a strategist, Trams actions have been epic failures after epic failures. He snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by playing right into Hamster's hands, ignored the (for once) sincere aid offered by Charlie, missed a second chance for croacking Wanda, and still doesn't take in acount Hamster can travel trough the Magic Kingdom and can pop up at any moment inside their capital.

You are not properly understanding the distinction between "bad ideas" and "ideas that turn out badly." Tram has been making reasonably good decisions, given his inexperience at being in command and the frankly bizarre and unorthodox events of the day.

Let's recheck his "reasonably good" decisions:
-Leting your ground troops right under the enemy flying bombers.
-Giving the supreme warlord free maneuvering room while taunting him.

Yeah, those were indeed "reasonably good" strategies... If you want to get your own troops bombed to oblivion and let the supreme warlord prove you why he's called the supreme warlord again.

It's not exactly his fault that Parson is able to pull off the seemingly impossible and turn an utterly helpless and caged army into a powerful invasion force. It wasn't just Tramennis - not one single unit in the battlespace had any conception of Parson's plan except those that he told, directly or indirectly. Hell, even Charlie thought GK was as good as captured until he overheard Parson's plan. If Charlie couldn't figure it out on his own, it seems a bit unfair to call Tramennis an idiot for not being able to work it out by himself.

Jillian figured it out. She told Trams to simply butcher everything from GK and call it a day.

Hamster himself comfirms that if Jetstone simply shoots first and asks questions later, they're dead meat.

And then Charlie also figured it out by overhearing the conversation, and offers Trams a strategy to counter it.

Charlie also points out how Ansom himself was killed when trying to parley.

Staley himself believes it's better to take no risks and just kill them all.

Trams proceeds to ignore Jillian, Charlie, his father and his brother's demise, and plays right into the trap laid out for him.

It's not simply that Hamster could break the rules, it's that Hamster's plan was entirely based on Trams acting like his brothers and parleying for the lulz instead of finishing the battle.

So yes, ignoring two valuable allies, your own father and the mistakes of your own brothers is definetely something any self respecting stragegist wouldn't do.

[Housellama]

Jillian figured it out. She told Trams to simply butcher everything from GK and call it a day.

Hamster himself comfirms that if Jetstone simply shoots first and asks questions later, they're dead meat.

And then Charlie also figured it out by overhearing the conversation, and offers Trams a strategy to counter it.

Charlie also points out how Ansom himself was killed when trying to parley.

Staley himself believes it's better to take no risks and just kill them all.

Trams proceeds to ignore Jillian, Charlie, his father and his brother's demise, and plays right into the trap laid out for him.

It's not simply that Hamster could break the rules, it's that Hamster's plan was entirely based on Trams acting like his brothers and parleying for the lulz instead of finishing the battle.

So yes, ignoring two valuable allies, your own father and the mistakes of your own brothers is definetely something any self respecting stragegist wouldn't do.

*facepalm* Bigger game dude, bigger game.

1. Nobody (except for Charlie who had resources beyond all but the Titans themselves) had ANY idea that the GK forces were anything but DEAD after their turn ended. Seriously, even Parson himself had to resort to a cheat that even he didn't think would work and had a 33% chance of outright failure on execution. According to all Parson's research, falling gives a 33% chance of death on impact. If Wanda died, game over. For the battle and quite possibly for the war itself. That's a hail mary pass for ANY strategist. When your plan has a 1/3 chance of failing BEFORE IT EVEN STARTS, that's a desperation move. Seriously. When the turn ended, GK was over a bloody BARREL. The ONLY person who could have gotten any side out of a situation like that was Parson. I don't think even Charlie could have done it. I suspect that Charlie had no idea how Parson would have done it, except for the Arkendish. Parson's plan was made POSSIBLE by the fact that the opposition was acting predictably in a situation that they had no reason to expect that they didn't have the upper hand. That still doesn't mean that Parson wasn't throwing a hail mary.

2. Tram's entire game plan after GK's turn ended was centered around GAINING MORE INFORMATION. He wasn't looking at the turn in front of him, which to everyone in Erfworld (except for Charlie who had the arkendish and Parson who isn't an Erfworlder) was a foregone conclusion. He was looking at how to gain an advantage in the turns ahead. The one thing he needed more than anything else was more information. He had discovered several unexpected things that turn. A, Charlie was in play and he didn't know why. B, GK had a warlord who was apparently a tactical genius. C, this warlord absolutely TERRIFIED Charlie, and finally D, several people thought it might be possible to Turn the Decrypted. Like every good strategist, Tram was looking at what to do next turn, and the turn after that, and the turn after that. He even overruled his father the King because he recognized that information was his most valuable commodity at that point. He had absolutely no reason to trust Charlie's information about Parson, because he used to be a diplomat. He's used to people lying to him to gain an advantage. Since Charlie wasn't supposed to be a part of the battle to begin with, and nobody knew who had hired him, he had a lot of reason to be suspicious. And with Charlie acting so out of character (giving credit and eventually volunteering information for free), he gave Tram absolutely no reason to have confidence in his words. So he focused on gathering more info. Know your enemy, etc.

3. When things started to go wrong for him, every decision Tram made was spot on. Using magic from the tower instead of arrows, stopping the magic to find out what was going on, recognizing Parson's lateral move as the invasion that it was and the danger that it represented, then focusing on survival and counterstrike. Evacuate the leadership, recognize that fighting back only strengthens the enemy, recognizing that abandoning SR only represented a minor tactical loss and choosing to withdraw and consolidate for a solid counterstrike. Don't fight at a time and place of the enemy's choosing. Despite the... unorthodox manner in which it happened, Parson chose that ground to fight. It was, at that time, to Parson's advantage to fight in Spacerock. By choosing to abandon it instead of clinging to Royal pride and defending it, he gives GK a small prize and denies it a much larger one. If Slately had his way after things went wrong, Jetstone would be dead right there. Tram's decision to abandon Spacerock is the right one.

4. Even BEFORE things started to go wrong, Tram showed a lot of intelligence and tactical and strategic thinking. Let's start from the beginning of the second book. When Tram gets goo'ed, the first thing he yells is "Don't help!". Why? Because if Oss helps, he gets goo'ed too. He recognizes the fact that Oss is the more capable fighter and that even though he is pinned, the tactical goal of survival is best served by him remaining that way until the threat is gone. So he tells Oss not to help. When Oss is gone and Tram is in charge, rather than go with the standard Jetstone tactical doctrine of "infantry, rah!", he takes the heavies and eats the column for a salad course. He knew that the heavies would make mincemeat of the infantry, and that there's no reason to take losses when they didn't have to. When Jillian showed up and he learned about Charlie, his reaction was to worry. Charlie was involved and he didn't know why. He also learned at that time of her intentions to attempt to turn Ansom. He questioned whether that was possible and she said she was going to try. When he got back to the castle, he took steps to fill those gaps in his knowledge, first by talking to Charlie, then to Oss. Knowledge is a strategist's greatest weapon. Tram knows that, so sought to get as much as possible.

From the get-go Tram displayed much much more tactical and strategic awareness than the average Erfworld warlord that we've seen. He took on Charlie on his own turf and came out even. He looked to gain an advantage for later turns when faced with what everyone had every right to believe was a thoroughly defeated foe. When that defeated foe turned on him, he recognized it and made the right decisions to minimize his losses and focus on maximizing his advantage for a counterstrike in further turns. As far as I'm concerned, Tram is on the level with Parson and Charlie, and there's no one else in Erfword who is on their level.

[GaryThunder]

Let's recheck his "reasonably good" decisions:
-Leting your ground troops right under the enemy flying bombers.
-Giving the supreme warlord free maneuvering room while taunting him.

Yeah, those were indeed "reasonably good" strategies... If you want to get your own troops bombed to oblivion and let the supreme warlord prove you why he's called the supreme warlord again.

I'm getting quite sick of saying this, but Tramennis had no particular reason to believe that Parson is actually the perfect warlord. Whose word does he have regarding Parson's skill? Charlie? Tramennis doesn't trust Charlie as far as he can punt the Arkendish, nobody smart does. Sure, Charlie sent him a dossier, but that pretty much only told Tramennis what he already knew. Furthermore, sending the dossier backfired horribly on Charlie:

"But all this tells us, Father, is that Charlie doesn't want us talking to this man. Which could be for the reasons he states, that this unlikely-looking Warlord is some kind of transcendental tactical genius."

And then it got even worse a minute later:

"You know, I think you just want to talk to this Warlord."
"Well, he's fascinating."

Bear in mind the context Tramennis is receiving this information in. He has learned that GK has a very clever warlord on staff, now Chief Warlord. "Aha," thinks Tramennis, "finally another Warlord whose mind is bigger than just swinging swords and barking orders. He and I are probably kindred spirits. I think we could accomplish quite a lot if we were to speak over, say, the about-to-be-slaughtered-remains of GK's air force?" From Tramennis' perspective, this is the perfect situation in which to meet a superbly skilled warlord - when he is at enough of a severe disadvantage that he can't bring his full might to bear against you. It's just too bad that Parson is more than just superbly skilled, he's perfect.

And that's the other thing. To Tramennis, a "perfect warlord" means "a warlord who is very, very good at coming up with strategy and tactics," not "a warlord good enough to basically break the laws of physics." He could not possibly have anticipated Parson's plan, even given his knowledge of Parson's previous gambits. Once an opponent has the ability to seemingly violate the natural rules of the world you live in, it becomes more or less impossible to predict his actions - how can you? You have no consistent framework to restrain his possible actions, since for all you know he can do literally anything.

As for the dwagons assembling over the garrison, perhaps you missed the last part of Jetstone's dictate: "in range of their archers and casters." Where else was Jetstone going to put the dwagons? Over the outer walls, where they could crap on and damage the walls themselves as well as being out of range of most of the archers? Scattered randomly around the place, so that they were absolutely impossible to hit? Lining up the dwagons over the garrison lined them up basically down the barrel of Jetstone's gun, and by gun I mean "tower full of archers."

[the_tick_rules]

Also since it's not GK cities or turn they couldn't cross the garrison zone and back to the outer wall zone or anywhere else if they tired right? Parson does indeed have the edge in that he can think outside the box in ways no erf person, except maybe charlie, does.

[ftl]

Oh noooos! Another Tramennis intelligence discussion!

I suppose I'll throw in a different 2 cents than I've usually thrown in to these.

To me, it seems that Tram's been a victim of the way the story has had to progress. We know that
1) We the readers are SUPPOSED to think that Tram is smart. This is said lots of times - calling him clever, "do you ever tire of being right", etc. In-universe, he's supposed to be smart.
2) Parson has to beat him. Nothing that Tramennis does can actually work well for him, because the Protagonist is in the house. He is required for plot reasons to make mistakes big enough for Parson to be able to salvage a hopeless situation.

That's what leads to this sort of nonsense. We see Tram being DESCRIBED as smart, but we see all his plans failing - possibly even in ways we can forsee.

We'll see how it holds together in the end, once all is said and done.

[Housellama]

Bear in mind the context Tramennis is receiving this information in. He has learned that GK has a very clever warlord on staff, now Chief Warlord. "Aha," thinks Tramennis, "finally another Warlord whose mind is bigger than just swinging swords and barking orders. He and I are probably kindred spirits. I think we could accomplish quite a lot if we were to speak over, say, the about-to-be-slaughtered-remains of GK's air force?" From Tramennis' perspective, this is the perfect situation in which to meet a superbly skilled warlord - when he is at enough of a severe disadvantage that he can't bring his full might to bear against you. It's just too bad that Parson is more than just superbly skilled, he's perfect.

And that's the other thing. To Tramennis, a "perfect warlord" means "a warlord who is very, very good at coming up with strategy and tactics," not "a warlord good enough to basically break the laws of physics." He could not possibly have anticipated Parson's plan, even given his knowledge of Parson's previous gambits. Once an opponent has the ability to seemingly violate the natural rules of the world you live in, it becomes more or less impossible to predict his actions - how can you? You have no consistent framework to restrain his possible actions, since for all you know he can do literally anything.

This. Exactly this. In both parts. Tram really wants to talk to Parson BECAUSE he has Parson over a barrel. If you're going to talk to someone who scares the crap out of someone who is potentially one of your scariest enemies, there's no better place to do it than at gunpoint. As Jim Butcher put it in the Dresden Files: "You're in America now. Our idea of diplomacy is to show up with a sandwich in one hand and a gun in the other and ask you which one you'd like." This is EXACTLY Tram's idea when he's thinking about chatting with this 'perfect' GK warlord. "Soooo... I hear you're really good. So I'm pretty sure that you know that you're booped in the boop right now. So why don't we talk about other ways that this turn might end and see what we can work out." THAT'S how Tram would approach this conversation. Why kill troops (on EITHER side) if you don't have to? There's no better ally than one that was your enemy 10 seconds ago.

On the other hand, Tram is limited by the fact that he's an Erfworlder. He doesn't understand Parson thinking outside of the box because he was born not knowing the box existed. The major reason that Parson can do the things he can do is that he's had to learn what the box looks like by trial and error. When you experiment, you learn things. When you are born knowing, you take things for granted. Assumption leads to stagnation. It's impossible to change your point of view when you don't realize others exist. That's why Parson is walking all over most of the other Erfworlders. That's why Jack and Maggie are some of the very few people who really GET Parson. Because they habitually think about how they think. They see the world in fundamentally different ways because of their casting discipline. And even THEY don't see the full scope. Like Jack said, his plan was partially right but he was still not asking the right question. Not how to survive, but how to WIN.

No Erfworlder is currently able to beat Parson, because they see the world as a place to be lived in. Parson sees the world as a system to be gamed. That's why he's able to essentially break the laws of physics. He can't ACTUALLY break the laws of physics. He simply sees Erfworld as a system to be exploited, where anything that is technically ABLE to be done is permissible. Victory by any means. Erfworlders are bound by custom and convention and tradition. Parson's just a guy who knows how to win.

[the_tick_rules]

Well they nearly did with just sheer numbers in RCC 1.0. Or if he enters the fray personally who knows he might go down like a chump. Well until plot saves him.

[oslecamo2]

I'm getting quite sick of saying this, but Tramennis had no particular reason to believe that Parson is actually the perfect warlord. Whose word does he have regarding Parson's skill?

He has the fact that Hamster wiped out his bro's coalition despite being outnumbered 25 to 1. Not good enough?

Charlie? Tramennis doesn't trust Charlie as far as he can punt the Arkendish, nobody smart does. Sure, Charlie sent him a dossier, but that pretty much only told Tramennis what he already knew. Furthermore, sending the dossier backfired horribly on Charlie:

"But all this tells us, Father, is that Charlie doesn't want us talking to this man. Which could be for the reasons he states, that this unlikely-looking Warlord is some kind of transcendental tactical genius."

And then it got even worse a minute later:

"You know, I think you just want to talk to this Warlord."
"Well, he's fascinating."

Bear in mind the context Tramennis is receiving this information in. He has learned that GK has a very clever warlord on staff, now Chief Warlord. "Aha," thinks Tramennis, "finally another Warlord whose mind is bigger than just swinging swords and barking orders. He and I are probably kindred spirits. I think we could accomplish quite a lot if we were to speak over, say, the about-to-be-slaughtered-remains of GK's air force?" From Tramennis' perspective, this is the perfect situation in which to meet a superbly skilled warlord - when he is at enough of a severe disadvantage that he can't bring his full might to bear against you. It's just too bad that Parson is more than just superbly skilled, he's perfect.

Hamster wiped out a coalition despite being outgunned 25 to 1. By all means, Ansom could've just mindlessly charged his troops and he should still easily win. Despite that, Hamster won the battle for GK.

Hamster already proved that being at "severe disadvantage" and ""about-to-be-slaughtered" are minor incoveniences. Yet Trams insists in repeating his brothers mistakes and give him maneuvering room.

And that's the other thing. To Tramennis, a "perfect warlord" means "a warlord who is very, very good at coming up with strategy and tactics," not "a warlord good enough to basically break the laws of physics." He could not possibly have anticipated Parson's plan, even given his knowledge of Parson's previous gambits. Once an opponent has the ability to seemingly violate the natural rules of the world you live in, it becomes more or less impossible to predict his actions - how can you? You have no consistent framework to restrain his possible actions, since for all you know he can do literally anything.

Thing is, TRAMS DIDN'T NEED TO PREDICT HAMSTER! TRAMS JUST NEEDED TO ORDER HIS TROOPS TO NUKE GK FORCES INTO OBLIVION! It was the simplest course of action and, suprise suprise, the right one.

I'm tired of people complicating so much. That's precisely why Trams is in such in a bad situation. Charlie gave him the opening, and all he needed was to deliver the finishing blow. Simple as that. Not talks, not negotiations, not anything that gives Hamster the slightest maneuvering room.

Like Hamster himself said, when you know what you have to do (Kill Wanda to stop her decrypting shenigans), you have to do it. Anything else is fail. Trams fails by not finishing the job when given the chance.

As for the dwagons assembling over the garrison, perhaps you missed the last part of Jetstone's dictate: "in range of their archers and casters." Where else was Jetstone going to put the dwagons? Over the outer walls, where they could crap on and damage the walls themselves as well as being out of range of most of the archers? Scattered randomly around the place, so that they were absolutely impossible to hit? Lining up the dwagons over the garrison lined them up basically down the barrel of Jetstone's gun, and by gun I mean "tower full of archers."

Put them over the Atrium, after evacuating the atrium. Was it that hard?

This. Exactly this. In both parts. Tram really wants to talk to Parson BECAUSE he has Parson over a barrel. If you're going to talk to someone who scares the crap out of someone who is potentially one of your scariest enemies, there's no better place to do it than at gunpoint. As Jim Butcher put it in the Dresden Files: "You're in America now. Our idea of diplomacy is to show up with a sandwich in one hand and a gun in the other and ask you which one you'd like."

And that's why you shouldn't trust random fantasy books for your war strategies. America's actual most effecient use of diplomacy is to do some bombing runs first, then ask the enemy if they would like to surrender. Shoot first, ask questions later is supringly effective, because it greatly reduces the ability of your oponent to shoot you back in the face with his own hidden gun.

This is EXACTLY Tram's idea when he's thinking about chatting with this 'perfect' GK warlord. "Soooo... I hear you're really good. So I'm pretty sure that you know that you're booped in the boop right now. So why don't we talk about other ways that this turn might end and see what we can work out." THAT'S how Tram would approach this conversation. Why kill troops (on EITHER side) if you don't have to? There's no better ally than one that was your enemy 10 seconds ago.

Except Trams didn't even try actual diplomacy. He started to chit-chat with his bro while Hamster started nuking his city. So we have Trams wasting both his chance for finishing off Wanda and trying to actually do an alliance.

At least Ansom managed to counter some of Hamster's plans. Trams so far has fallen right into a trap after another.

[Lamech]

He has the fact that Hamster wiped out his bro's coalition despite being outnumbered 25 to 1. Not good enough?

That was from a nuke. If Parson can repeat that now... well, that sucks. And there is nothing Tram can do about it. Well except for get that alliance that GK keeps offering. Now assuming that Ansom reported in to Jetstone about major actions up until his demise then Tram knows that Parson is a very, very good warlord. But at no point did Parson do anything that defied the rules. Even the nuke was simply a super-massive attack. (And yes when defending your city you can fire outside your hex.)

Thing is, TRAMS DIDN'T NEED TO PREDICT HAMSTER! TRAMS JUST NEEDED TO ORDER HIS TROOPS TO NUKE GK FORCES INTO OBLIVION! It was the simplest course of action and, suprise suprise, the right one.

I'm tired of people complicating so much. That's precisely why Trams is in such in a bad situation. Charlie gave him the opening, and all he needed was to deliver the finishing blow. Simple as that. Not talks, not negotiations, not anything that gives Hamster the slightest maneuvering room.

Like Hamster himself said, when you know what you have to do (Kill Wanda to stop her decrypting shenigans), you have to do it. Anything else is fail. Trams fails by not finishing the job when given the chance.

Lets assume for a second that Tram does know that Parson is a great warlord, and what happened at the BfGK. So lets say he destroyed the entire air force. Then what? Parson has demonstrated amazing abilities; he would have won the BfGK, with out the nuke had Charlie not intervened. So what will Tram do after this turn? GK is probably in better shape that Jetstone right now, even if we don't consider the "+3 dwagons a turn", or the huge cash reserves. At the very least the odds are much closer than in book 1; GK is "terribly powerful", Unaroyal is gone, and Jetstone doesn't have enough for natural allies. If Parson is the great uber-warlord then in the coming battles Jetstone is slaughtered. So attacking Wanda is effectively committing suicide.
If Parson isn't the uber-warlord then he can crush the airforce, and talking costs them nothing, but might hold large gains. So attacking Wanda is throwing away the gains from talks for nothing.
Either way a horrible idea.

Put them over the Atrium, after evacuating the atrium. Was it that hard?

The tower was what Tram probably though would be attacked if the battle started. That is were the highest leadership was, the casters and the archers. Putting random infantry in the tower would just have made the damage worse. The units in the atrium were safe because there wasn't really any conceivable reason to shoot them.

And that's why you shouldn't trust random fantasy books for your war strategies. America's actual most effecient use of diplomacy is to do some bombing runs first, then ask the enemy if they would like to surrender. Shoot first, ask questions later is supringly effective, because it greatly reduces the ability of your oponent to shoot you back in the face with his own hidden gun.

Tram's plan was called ransom. It doesn't work if you kill the hostages.

[Housellama]

Hamster already proved that being at "severe disadvantage" and ""about-to-be-slaughtered" are minor incoveniences.

Minor correction with MAJOR implications. Hamster already proved TO THE READER that being at "severe disadvantage" and ""about-to-be-slaughtered" are minor inconveniences.

Parson has proven absolutely NOTHING to Tram. Neither has Charlie. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, who wasn't AT GK when it happened has no idea EXACTLY what happened at GK when the mountain blew up. All they know is SOMETHING happened and everyone died. It could have been Parson. It could have been Wanda. It could have been Maggie. It could have been Sizemore. It could have been ANYONE. It could have been any THING.

You need to separate what the READER knows from what the CHARACTERS know. Because there's a HUGE difference, and it MAKES a huge difference in how the characters act and react.

[Housellama]

And that's why you shouldn't trust random fantasy books for your war strategies. America's actual most effecient use of diplomacy is to do some bombing runs first, then ask the enemy if they would like to surrender. Shoot first, ask questions later is supringly effective, because it greatly reduces the ability of your oponent to shoot you back in the face with his own hidden gun.

If you wish to discuss the United States long term foreign policy and military strategy, I will be more than happy to do so, in private. I would encourage you to do so. You might learn something. Otherwise, I would respectfully ask you to limit yourself to the topic under discussion. You have plenty to learn here already.

[Oberon]

Let's recheck [Tram's] "reasonably good" decisions:
-Leting your ground troops right under the enemy flying bombers.
-Giving the supreme warlord free maneuvering room while taunting him.

Yeah, those were indeed "reasonably good" strategies... If you want to get your own troops bombed to oblivion and let the supreme warlord prove you why he's called the supreme warlord again.

Jillian figured it out. She told Trams to simply butcher everything from GK and call it a day.

Hamster himself comfirms that if Jetstone simply shoots first and asks questions later, they're dead meat.

And then Charlie also figured it out by overhearing the conversation, and offers Trams a strategy to counter it.

Charlie also points out how Ansom himself was killed when trying to parley.

Staley himself believes it's better to take no risks and just kill them all.

Trams proceeds to ignore Jillian, Charlie, his father and his brother's demise, and plays right into the trap laid out for him.

It's not simply that Hamster could break the rules, it's that Hamster's plan was entirely based on Trams acting like his brothers and parleying for the lulz instead of finishing the battle.

So yes, ignoring two valuable allies, your own father and the mistakes of your own brothers is definetely something any self respecting stragegist wouldn't do.

Hold on there, oslecamo2! Don't get all logical and list out the reasons why Tram shouldn't be considered to be a smart diplomat. In just a few minutes someone will be along to present the stunning counter-argument that Tram gained a lot of valuable intelligence by conversing with Ossomer rather than getting his message heard by the person who might have been intrigued and stayed his plan to listen, even if only until negotiations broke down. Or, you'll hear how vital it was for Tram to have attempted to turn Ossomer, the least valuable thing he was planning on asking GK to give him in these negotiations. Or maybe you'll be reminded how masterful Tram was when he became cross with Charlie, and stood up to him in their discussion, all the while taking everything Charlie told him at face value except for the fact that he shouldn't negotiate with Parson. Or you might hear that Tram couldn't have known that leading with insults is the standard operation procedure for which royals are known, and so for Tram to lead off with insults couldn't possibly have been interpreted that Tram was not planning to deal in good faith and therefore undermined the one thing he really needed to get out of this conversation.

Oh, wait...it has already happened.

[Dante]

in reality 2 things saved them
1) the pliers giving GK a free massive instant army

Wanda can still uncroak without the pliers, and she had all the time in the world to make them quality zombies because...

2) TV randomly deciding that the massively overpowered warlord group which was a turn from GK should not infact finish off stanley and his side but rather all head home because having jillian meet there king was of the utmost importance.

... Gobwin Knob's turn comes before Transylvito's in the natural order, so even if they made it there on their next turn they'd have to face nearly the entire coalition force as Uncroaked.

[Thunder]

At the very least id like to know why they didn't chase stanley down and kill him off. he fled the fight then was on his way back to GK, ending his turn in a field. after his turn ends it will be TVs turn before he gets another one, so even if they are afraid of going after GK city why not kill off stanley in the field?

as for making them quality time is important but so is juice, she couldn't mass reanimate effectivly before the pliers, spending time on a single unit makes it better but doing so on an entire army isn't doable with the massive amount of juice and time required. she could mass reanimate like during the battle possibly(if she had the juice left after the battle) but they would have fallen apart sooner, and then they would be hosed in a couple turns. the pliers also allow for her to bring back other types of units which her croaking couldnt. thats why the pliers saved them, if not for them even if she mass animated the fallen wariors in a few turns GK would be left with nothing but what stanley took with him and a few natural allies they could generate, leaving them easily crushed by the 2nd coalition