Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

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Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:14 pm

At Smoker's suggestion, here's a poll .... uhm, scratch that, apparently the "Poll creation" tab is not available in this section of the forum.

Ahem. Let's pretend that a poll was in fact made, and that the options are as follows:

"Jillian is a likeable character."

"Jillian is an interesting character."

"Jillian is an underused character."

"Jillian is among the most decent people in the comic."

"Jillian is almost a, or even a, positive role-model."

"None of the above."

You can pick more options. Proceed!

Notes:

- yes, almost all the options are positive. Since this is not a real poll, if you want to vote for the negative of one of the above, you can!
- this is about our opinions, and finding them out. Though arguments will eventually start, please refrain from commenting adversely on anyone's take on the character. We're not here to discuss whether we should like her or not, and why, merely to see what we all think. Or rather, count who thinks what.
- so because of the above, just state your options, brief reasons if you feel like it, or not, if not :P

My answer is "none of the above" btw. As Raza said, I've been going about why in several threads in the past, and will now just leave it at that.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby effataigus » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:28 pm

Jillian is an moderately compelling character that makes most of my favorite characters less compelling through their reactions to her.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Atomic » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:32 pm

effataigus wrote:Jillian is an moderately compelling character that makes most of my favorite characters less compelling through their reactions to her.
Quoted for truth.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Jorgath » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:39 pm

Jillian is a compelling character with more positive qualities than negative qualities, but she gets slightly more attention paid to her by the writer than ought to be compelled by her role in the plot to date.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Raza » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:36 pm

Hah, poll.

- Jillian is a likeable character.
- Jillian is among the most decent people in the comic.


My reasoning, from the thread that started this one:

Raza wrote:I like Jillian. She's the only character in this ridiculously mis-ethical world fighting for something worth a damn. Many of her critics seem to accept Erfworld's base assumption that furthering your side's interests is somehow a good thing; a responsibility, even. I say there is nothing good about a quest for power for your 'side' in some global free-for-all... but there is a lot to be said for living a free and thrilling life alongside your choice of lovers. Lacking an obvious way to do that peacefully and non-authoritatively, fighting for love still beats fighting for power, both ethically and poetically.

She's not exceptionally interesting though, and definitely not underused.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Lamech » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:07 pm

I strongly disagree with the idea that Jillian is in anyway a decent person, most especially in regards to how she acts towards her objects of affection. Lets go over her recent interactions with her "lovers": Wanda: when she doesn't get her way, she: makes a false truce, tries to kill Wanda and then flies off. When Ansom turns her down she kidnaps him. Thats not the behavior of a decent person. You know who does that? Horrible, horrible people. Trying to kill someone who turns you down is NOT what a decent person does. Kidnapping someone who turns you down is NOT a decent person.
Also I would accept the brainwashing makes it okay excuse in regards to Ansom except she brainwashed her top warlord too, so that makes her a freaking hypocrite if that is her excuse. Nor has Jillian done anything that would be considered decent. She goes and attacks another side simply because she wants some cash.

So none of the above.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby BakaGrappler » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:33 pm

I say that Jillian is an interesting character, but only because she is completely booped up in the head.

Jillian is an overly violent boop that lives by the thrill of the moment. I think the real reason she never wanted to be a ruler is because then she would have to do stuff like thinking about long term goals and ramifications to her actions. Yeah, that's fine, but clearly she skates by on luck and the fact that she is being used most of the time. The only time when she is capable is when she swings a sword. Sure, she can plan a battle and win a fight through preparation, but that is still counted as "when she swings a sword."

Jillian is also, by far, the most well "traveled" character I have seen since The Witcher. How many love interests does she have? Had? Going to have? The story is only one and a half books long and Jillian has slept with a quarter of the more plot important characters. And if anyone dares to say "You're saying that just because she's a woman and you buy the double standard," I say that if it was a guy I would be condemning it just as hard. How am I suppose to like a woman that not only has no sense of emotional loyalty to a lover, but is actively sought after despite that obvious flaw?

There had better be a huge Hippimancer spell or magic vortex on that girl to justify the sheer number of people chasing her tail.

My final answer is that while Jillian is an interesting character, it is interesting in terms of a car flipping over and over down an embankment. It's incredible to see something go so horribly wrong, but at the same time you know it is all that person's fault for driving straight off the road.

I dislike Jillian. And unless Rob pulls some incredible stuff out of her ruling Faq, without being a damn puppet to outside interests or having to do directly with manipulating her lovers, I am going to grow to hate her.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Raza » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:46 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:Jillian is also, by far, the most well "traveled" character I have seen since The Witcher. How many love interests does she have? Had? Going to have? The story is only one and a half books long and Jillian has slept with a quarter of the more plot important characters. And if anyone dares to say "You're saying that just because she's a woman and you buy the double standard," I say that if it was a guy I would be condemning it just as hard. How am I suppose to like a woman that not only has no sense of emotional loyalty to a lover, but is actively sought after despite that obvious flaw?

Refraining from monogamy without promising it is not a flaw. Loyalty and exclusivity are nowhere near the same thing, either, and Jillian repeatedly proves this by showing loyalty to lovers despite having been intimate with others since.

Lamech wrote:I strongly disagree with the idea that Jillian is in anyway a decent person, most especially in regards to how she acts towards her objects of affection. Lets go over her recent interactions with her "lovers": Wanda: when she doesn't get her way, she: makes a false truce, tries to kill Wanda and then flies off. When Ansom turns her down she kidnaps him. Thats not the behavior of a decent person. You know who does that? Horrible, horrible people. Trying to kill someone who turns you down is NOT what a decent person does. Kidnapping someone who turns you down is NOT a decent person.
Also I would accept the brainwashing makes it okay excuse in regards to Ansom except she brainwashed her top warlord too, so that makes her a freaking hypocrite if that is her excuse. Nor has Jillian done anything that would be considered decent. She goes and attacks another side simply because she wants some cash.

So none of the above.

Arguably, but I'd like to point out that the poll option only requires her to be decent in comparison to everyone else in Erfworld. Violence, as a general rule, is non-decent... but in Erfworld, practically everyone seems willing to deal it as their primary mode of achieving anything.

Every character or side you name as having been wronged by her would have gone on to either kill or be killed if she'd chosen to leave them be entirely - I think that does affect the ethics of her forceful interference somewhat. In the end, only Sizemore and the Hippiemancers have any claim on being more decent than Jillian on account of violent and coercive behavior... and that's not enough to rule her out as 'one of the most'.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Sixty » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:56 pm

She's ok I guess. I don't have strong feelings about her one way or the other.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Stryke » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:55 pm

First Wanda, then Ansom, then Wanda and Ansom, then Vinnie, and jack has a crush on her.
Shes a bit of a whore really. But i find that more funny than anything else.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:42 pm

Can't stand her.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:09 am

Let's try and avoid arguing pro or con; as mentioned, this thread is about merely expressing your opinion, not showing anyone else how deeply wrong and misguided they are.

Raza wrote:Arguably, but I'd like to point out that the poll option only requires her to be decent in comparison to everyone else in Erfworld.


I will comment approvingly on this however, as it catches the different nuances behind the answers. She can be comparatively decent, and not someone you'd like to emulate, for example.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Dante » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:17 am

I'm not a fan of Jillian, but I'm kind of baffled by some of the complaints leveled against her. For one, it's kind of a joke to make value judgments on promiscuity to an Erf unit. There are no STDs, no such thing as pregnancy, and it's considered normal for command units to harass and dominate their subordinates. In light of that, Jillian's romantic behaviors seem fairly modest. It's also really hard to apportion blame for what happened to Sammy and Haggar; that was what Charlie wanted to happen, and he made it so.

Actually, there's really nothing wrong with Jillian herself, other than perhaps not being a very compelling character. I mean, her motivations boil down to selfishness and revenge, and the revenge part is pretty flimsy considering she hated life in Faq anyway. Stanley did her a FAVOR by making her a barbarian; her irrational hatred of him seems misplaced, and her justifications (I didn't want Faq, but it was MINE!) are weak. So you're just left with the selfishness bit, and it fails to distinguish her now that she's Queen because every Erf Ruler is a megalomaniac. She lacks depth.

The real problem is the plot contrivances that crop up in her favor like she's some kind of Arch-Fatemancer or something. It makes her come across as a Mary-Sue, even though it's generally the actions of other characters (Charlie, Don, Tramennis) that reflect on her, rather than anything she actually did by herself. But Charlie already gave her a piece of his mind over cutting Jetstone loose, so I have hope that she won't come away squeaky-clean from squandering the resources of three sides in a vain attempt to rekindle her old flame.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Smoker » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:21 pm

This is how Jillian reads to me:

She's a force. She's a high level royal unit with buttloads of experience leading and winning battles. Moreover, now that she's got cities again, her unit types are very powerful. She's supposed to be a game changer. Get Jillian on your side and your chances of success increase by.. ahem, Jillians.

It's just controlling her that's the trick.

Don King managed to convince her to restart her side, as a way to pitch her back into the battle. Now she's relying on those cities for upkeep, she cant avoid chipping in against GK. If it weren't for the fact she had territory to maintain, I suspect she would have left Jetstone to rot, and waited for her shot at Stanley personally.

Charlie is pulling strings, basically bribing her to go along with his design, but again, Jillian only did the minimum. She handed Jetstone the battle and headed off again, without waiting for the finish. If Charlie can't completely manipulate someone, they must be powerful.

Even before that, when she was working for Jetstone, she was undermining orders and doing her own thing - even going as far as letting herself be captured for a bit of jiggy-jiggy-yah-yah with Wanda.

So I think its interesting to see how characters try to line up the Jillian cannon, and fire her in the right direction, only for her to swerve off in pursuit of her own objectives. That makes her fun.

Also, remember that Jillian has constantly lost her battles. She lost Stanley at the pass, then she lost Ansom to Bogroll, and again to Wanda when he was decrypted. She lost her side, which she may not have loved, but she DID still have a loyalty stat, plus her friends and 'family' there.

She lost Wanda when Wanda asked too much of her, she's about to lose Vinny when she brings Ansom home. She lost her freedom when Don King tied her to Faq.2 and she might very well lose her support from Charlie and/or TV after quitting the battle of Spacerock too early.

So as physically powerful as she might be, she's actually quite a failure. For that reason I find her very interesting. If it were up to me, I'd like to see her acknowledge her failures a bit more, but that doesn't stop me from liking her and her effect on the story.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby SteveMB » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:06 pm

Smoker wrote:So as physically powerful as she might be, she's actually quite a failure. For that reason I find her very interesting. If it were up to me, I'd like to see her acknowledge her failures a bit more, but that doesn't stop me from liking her and her effect on the story.

She seems like the type to not acknowledge her failures unless and until she runs out of rationalizations. I suspect that she might eventually get to that point, and the path leading there could be very interesting (albeit in a Chinese-curse sense for her).
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Smoker » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:41 am

SteveMB wrote:
Smoker wrote:So as physically powerful as she might be, she's actually quite a failure. For that reason I find her very interesting. If it were up to me, I'd like to see her acknowledge her failures a bit more, but that doesn't stop me from liking her and her effect on the story.

She seems like the type to not acknowledge her failures unless and until she runs out of rationalizations. I suspect that she might eventually get to that point, and the path leading there could be very interesting (albeit in a Chinese-curse sense for her).


I agree. We've only seen her show weakness on 2 maybe three occasions.
1) Spilling her guts to Ansom about her past.
2) Having a rage when she lost Stanely at the pass.
3) Sharing a moment with Vinny when she found out about the Volcano.
You might want to add the mind control drama to the list, but I see that more as her strength.

I guess what I'm saying is she needs a darker side to balance her out. Maybe when she's got Ansom in the dungeon she'll have a nice setting for such a thing. (I also seem to remember a sketch of Ansom with a ball-gag...)
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Sylvan » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:07 am

Meh.

I kind of agree with Smoker in that she is a force in the comic, but I don't really have strong opinions about her.

I think I have yet to fully grasp her role in all of this. I think the "barbarism" has a big impact in it, but she just doesn't grip me in any sort of meaningful way as a character.

I kind of like her motivations, and I hope her purpose will be to get Wanda to see the role of other "people" in the world. But I haven't seen enough of her in the comic to love or hate her.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby the_tick_rules » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:43 am

I like her bad arseness tons, her emotional problems less.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby drachefly » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:04 pm

Dante wrote:The real problem is the plot contrivances that crop up in her favor like she's some kind of Arch-Fatemancer or something. It makes her come across as a Mary-Sue, even though it's generally the actions of other characters (Charlie, Don, Tramennis) that reflect on her, rather than anything she actually did by herself.


Not that she is a Mary Sue - she fails too much - but the unrealistic actions of those around her are indeed one of the hallmarks of a Mary Sue.
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Re: Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

Postby Catalyst » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:14 pm

Hate 'er. She is one of the most self-serving and impulsive characters in the comic.
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