Jillian- love 'er or hate 'er?

[ParsonIsOP]

I'm mostly indifferent.

I don't think she's a Mary Sue, of the black hole variety or otherwise. She's not even the most selfish character in the comic. But that's not really the problem. Her being selfish is boring. Watching Charlie or Wanda being selfish is a lot more fun. Because they're magnificent bastards about it.

Thinking about why you hate Stanley is interesting. Figuring out why he works the way he does is interesting. Jillian is just indecisive. And she isn't somebody you can love to hate.

Also, think about which characters you'd rather have a conversation with.

Jack: He's a wonderfully unconventional thinker who loves word games and illusions. He's a bit of a philosopher when it comes to perception. Unprejudiced.
Sizemore: He's curious and knows lots of different kinds of things. He's always interested in new ideas. Unprejudiced.
Maggie: A keen observer of people and the human mind. Unprejudiced.
Tramennis: He has a scintillating wit and a good sense of humor. Unprejudiced.

Then think of what a conversation with Jillian would be like. Blech.

[ftl]

Neutral, at the moment. Liked her throughout most of book 1 and the summer updates - she was the barbarian who just wanted to swing a sword and get back at the person who killed her father, but got caught up in politics and intrigue and love, got tossed between being manipulated by Don and Charlie. A free spirit being buffeted about by forces bigger than her.

Not so happy with her after she betrayed Don and Jestone. No matter how you swing that decision, it wasn't good. If she thought she was going to save Wanda by not attacking, she's betraying Don, who made the mistake of trusting her. If she thought she's just not going to have the blood on her own hands and leave it to someone else, that's pretty cowardly. What happened to the third option of taking part in the battle, but capturing Wanda herself? Or the third option of at least sticking around until the battle was over?

A little befuddled by why Don trusted her, but not so much. Not so much because he's basically acting as a new royalist, and it makes sense that he'd blind himself and try to prop up a new royal side. More befuddled by why Charlie trusted her. But anything Charlie does is confusing.

[ParsonIsOP]

More befuddled by why Charlie trusted her. But anything Charlie does is confusing.

He didn't know any better.

He thought her thirst for vengeance was more important to her than her desire to save any lovers she might have. His objective was to have GK's crusade defeated at the hands of Royalist forces without appearing to have any involvement.

[Beeskee]

Nearly everything everyone else said.

There's some kind of love hexagon going on tho (heh) between Jillian and all her loves, plus Wanda and all her loves (reciprocated or not) to the point where I hope that if anyone else from Jillian's past is introduced, they have some connection to her other than love/lust/etc. Or else it threatens to turn into a love hypercube. (Alternate video)

[Smoker]

Also, think about which characters you'd rather have a conversation with.

I love this.

[Sygerrik]

Hate her. Always have, always will. She's perceived as fairly competent in the story, which I find weird, since from a tactical standpoint she's the dumbest person on Erf (even COUNTING Slately). She's also morally repugnant for a lot of reasons that have been touched on.

HOWEVER, I do like the recent trend of in-universe characters calling her out on her childish, unacceptable behavior. First Charlie and then Ansom. I likely won't get my first wish, which is for her to be bitten in half by a Dwagon, but I might get my second, which is for her to lose her kingdom again and have to face up to the reasons why and do some serious soul-searching. She's about as reflective as a yard of dirt, but maybe something will get through.

I don't care about the promiscuity. What I do care about is other characters, who are in all other ways seemingly intelligent and mature, having huge plot-convenient blind spots to Jillian's absurd shenanigans and acting like she's not a whiny child.

[HandofShadows]

I knida like Jillian. Not for how she acts now, but for how I think she might be when she grows up. Right now Jillian is a spoiled impulsive brat. Why I think she can get better is that she knows how bad she is on some level and hates herself for it. But she does not know how to change.

[drachefly]

What I do care about is other characters, who are in all other ways seemingly intelligent and mature, having huge plot-convenient blind spots to Jillian's absurd shenanigans and acting like she's not a whiny child.

Ansom, Vinnie, and Don don't actually know her all that well. Wanda and Jack got to see her in capacities in which her faults were held in check, and also they're casters and not necessarily cognizant of how bad she was at the things she was bad at. For the latter four of these, much can be explained by just saying she's hot, and that is enough to make people stupid. Vinnie, at least, is aware of how bad she is at what she does (see: arguments)

[Sylvan]

Also, think about which characters you'd rather have a conversation with.

I love this.

I was kinda neutral about this thread for a while, hence my really short post when I normally post walls o' text, but this deserves a QFT.

[Maldeus]

I don't like Jillian that much, but she mostly stays out of the way of the comic so far, giving Charlie, Parson, Wanda, and other master-planners the chance to plan masterfully.

[Water_Bear]

Maybe this is just me, but one thing that bugs me about Jillian is her deal with Ansom. Maybe the signs just went over my head, but it seemed like she wasn't very interested in him until they shagged on the rug (sorry, can't help it...), and even then there wasn't much of a hint of real romantic feelings as much as respect and horniness. The next thing we know it's "Twu Wuv" and Ansom's death is this terrible tragedy she can't stop angsting about.

I'm not saying she isn't a cool character, but the Jillian-Ansom romance subplot bores me and comes out of nowhere. If she and Wanda didn't have such an interesting chemistry I would suggest bumping her off in favor of someone more interesting (Vinny, Caeser, Maggie, Bunny, Sizemore, Archon #77...) getting the spotlight.

[GaryThunder]

Maybe this is just me, but one thing that bugs me about Jillian is her deal with Ansom. Maybe the signs just went over my head, but it seemed like she wasn't very interested in him until they shagged on the rug (sorry, can't help it...), and even then there wasn't much of a hint of real romantic feelings as much as respect and horniness. The next thing we know it's "Twu Wuv" and Ansom's death is this terrible tragedy she can't stop angsting about.

I'm not saying she isn't a cool character, but the Jillian-Ansom romance subplot bores me and comes out of nowhere. If she and Wanda didn't have such an interesting chemistry I would suggest bumping her off in favor of someone more interesting (Vinny, Caeser, Maggie, Bunny, Sizemore, Archon #77...) getting the spotlight.

Bear in mind the greatly compressed time frame Erf units deal with. We don't have any solid knowledge of the average unit lifespan in turns, but huge things can occur over just a handful of turns. Slately's rule, thought to be a dynasty, lasted 3000+ turns - less than nine years. Twu Wuv may very well crop up within a very short amount of turns.

[Sylvan]

Maybe this is just me, but one thing that bugs me about Jillian is her deal with Ansom. Maybe the signs just went over my head, but it seemed like she wasn't very interested in him until they shagged on the rug (sorry, can't help it...), and even then there wasn't much of a hint of real romantic feelings as much as respect and horniness. The next thing we know it's "Twu Wuv" and Ansom's death is this terrible tragedy she can't stop angsting about.

I'm not saying she isn't a cool character, but the Jillian-Ansom romance subplot bores me and comes out of nowhere.

I can see where you are coming from, but there was a small sign or two, in my eyes.

In this update, for the final few panel, you can see Jillian wanting to sneak back into Ansom's tent when he very first offers it. She appears a little dismissive of him in this update, and the ones before and after that, but I just read that as her "barbarian pride". Plus, she is still under Wanda's spell at this point, but she does still seem to at least respect Ansom, and probably enjoys the fact that he admits when she is right.

This one isn't as conclusive, but the Shakespeare quote has me thinking that Jillian is upset in this comic. Remember the context, Jillian was just released and Parson had planned to hit Ansom when he rode in to rescue her. He never came for her, and it looks like she fell asleep waiting.

And right here Wanda says Jillian loves Ansom. I know, I know, all we have in this update is Wanda's word, but I trust Wanda's judgment of that well enough.

[Ytaker]

Jillian is a pretty horrible person. It may be the norm, according to Maggie, but she's the only character who has been shown engaging in rape of subordinants with Vanna.

And this rapist gets huge amounts of screen time. We're supposed to care about her meaningless transition from barbarian to queen while ignoring the fact that she's a rapist.

She's also a pretty boring character. There is nothing fun about her personality.

[drachefly]

Cite the rape of Vanna, please?

[fjolnir]

We have no instances of rape that we know of in the story, what we have is an instance where Duncan was brainwashed in the dungeon and Jill comments she does her job well even if she doesn't know how to play.

[Ytaker]

Given the relationship between ruler and subjects, and the fact that their order is duress, it's quite hard for sex or play which is an obvious euphemism initiated by the ruler to not fit the definition of rape fairly well. You are mind controlled to obey them and compelled to have sex, so if Jillian asked you have to say yes. And it clearly was Jill who initiated it, given the phrasing.

Vanna hasn't been shown to have any romantic attraction to her, unlike most lover encounters in the story, which makes it seem even less likely she actually wanted it. Jillian is the only ruler who has used one of her subordinants for pleasure, seeing how well they can play. As such, her constant hate of Stanley is grating, in that he has been respectful of his subordinants, and his only sexual encounter was initiated by Wanda.

[drachefly]

I know all that. Cite Jillian making out with Vanna, please?

[wrecan]

If you guys hate her now, wait until she attunes to the fourth Arkentool, hidden beneath the ruins of old FAQ. It's the Arkensword, which King Banhammer had beaten into a plowshare, thus giving him the needed edge so he could preserve FAQ as a bubble kingdom (at least until Wanda's betrayal). Jillian finds it, restores it, and becomes even more badass and inexplicably attractive to men.

Once attuned to the Arkensword, Wanda will have to deal with her as necessary to her vision of unifying all the Arkentools, she represents equipoise between Royalism and Toolism, and given Parson's stated intention to take FAQ out after dealing with Jetstone, place Wanda emotionally and philosophically at odds with the Perfect Warlord. (And it'll be a great twist because most of us expect Parson to attune to the missing fourth Arkentool.)

[Thunder]

when Jillian says she doesn't play right i took that more to mean that her method of control wasn't like wanda and that was what she didn't like

i assumed wandas method was much more painful than what the caster used