Caesar's Coup

[Arlon]

I'm interested in hearing people's opinion on if/how Caesar will attempt a coup, and if he'll be successful.

Personally, I think that Don's plan to give most of their treasury to Jetstone will be the straw that breaks the camels back. Caesar's already bent outta shape about funding FAQ, and this pouring their treasury into a dying side won't make him any happier. Besides, he's already worried that Don is trying to off him; he might strike first, especially if he thinks it will save his side. And since Ben seems to agree to some extent, he might back Caesar.

I think Bunny will stop him though, perhaps even by killing him. I have nothing to base this on, I just want to see a Shakespeare reference:

"Et tu Bunny? Then fall Caesar!"

[Thunder]

i was uncertain if Caesar could atempt a coup, specifically if he is currently heir designate or not. anyone know?

[ftl]

i was uncertain if Caesar could atempt a coup, specifically if he is currently heir designate or not. anyone know?

He is currently Heir Designate. http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... mission_21 . Don is popping a Royal Heir to replace him, but the heir hasn't popped yet.

[Arlon]

If Caesar is heir designate, and another heir is popped, does he remain an heir? If not, then all the shmuckers Don spent to designate him would go to waste.

We've seen that Jetstone has multiple heirs (Ansom and Ossomer), but is it totally clear that they were heir simultaneously? Does one heir take precedence over the other? Does a royal heir trump an heir-designate, or are they equal? Maybe the ruler decides which heir is next in line? If royal heirs DO trump, then Caesar needs to act before Don's son/daughter pops (unless he intends to croak Don and let the new heir rule, which seems counter-intuitive to me).

Thoughts?

[Althernai]

If Caesar is heir designate, and another heir is popped, does he remain an heir? If not, then all the shmuckers Don spent to designate him would go to waste.

He remains an heir, but presumably Don will make the newly-popped Royal the heir designate.

[SteveMB]

i was uncertain if Caesar could atempt a coup, specifically if he is currently heir designate or not. anyone know?

He is currently Heir Designate. http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... mission_21 . Don is popping a Royal Heir to replace him, but the heir hasn't popped yet.

Yes -- and that increases both Caesar's motivation and the pressure to act quickly.

If Caesar is heir designate, and another heir is popped, does he remain an heir? If not, then all the shmuckers Don spent to designate him would go to waste.

We've seen that Jetstone has multiple heirs (Ansom and Ossomer), but is it totally clear that they were heir simultaneously? Does one heir take precedence over the other? Does a royal heir trump an heir-designate, or are they equal? Maybe the ruler decides which heir is next in line? If royal heirs DO trump, then Caesar needs to act before Don's son/daughter pops (unless he intends to croak Don and let the new heir rule, which seems counter-intuitive to me).

Thoughts?

It's unlcear (at least to me; maybe I missed something) whether multiple heirs can coexist in some sort of "line of succession" queue. If so, precedence would presumably be set by the Ruler (possibly with some rule that puts royal heirs ahead of any non-royal heir-designate). It doesn't matter all that much as far as Caesar's situation is concerned; either way, he's going to lose the status of being next in line -- as you say, he probably wouldn't be interested in staging a coup for the benefit of the new heir.

[No one in particular]

I think that if Caesar does go rogue, he's not going to kill Don. He'll just take a Bunny, bunch of loyal units, Benny and jet. They'll find a sacked city, claim it, and start a new side. Sort of a combination of secession and elopement, really.

Of course, this will have the same effect as killing Don, since he'll be crippled without his leadership and casters, and nearly broke.

[raphfrk]

I think Tram proves that a succession of heirs is unlikely. Otherwise, he would most likely be an heir already even if not a primary one, Jetstone was a fairly wealthy side up until GK, so unless designating more than one heir is incredibly costly, I think it is simply "One ruler, One heir"

Slately never got around to it due to Trammenis's looks. He even apologised for it.

[the_tick_rules]

There may be an expected line of succession but i haven't seen anything to prove that more than one heir can be officially designated at any one time.

[Sixty]

This is true but it does not prove that you can have multiple heirs, only that Slately did NOT make tram heir when he was popped (due to his looks). However, Tram was popped first which means that Ansom was then popped and then made heir after tram (probably due to the shock of how foppish tram looked compared to the prince they were expecting).
So... Actually I guess tram really doesn't prove it either way, however my gut is still with the one heir theory.
A succession just seems... more complicated than it needs to be.

Didn't they say that Tram wasn't designed to be a heir when he was queued up to pop? You can set a royal warlord to be heir but it takes longer (and might cost more) but they mentioned Tram was popped in a time when they had a lot of heirs and needed more warlords so they didn't bother to pop him as heir.

[Arlon]

Wait, I just had a thought!

Supposing Caesar DOES rebel and become Overlord (by croaking Don), would he be able to stop the production of the royal heir? Or is unit production set until that unit pops? Could he 'abort' the unpopped heir, or be forced to wait until he/she pops? If he did wait, WOULD he croak the heir (which I suppose would now be Caesar's heir)? I suppose that would depend on whether the heir has any love/loyalty for his/her croaked father (Don); Caesar wouldn't want a a 'stepchild' around that could croak him in vengeance.

Unless Rob wants to bring some sort of "Hamlet" style vengeance plot. Between that and Transylvito's Italian mafia motif, it brings to mind Godfather-esque payback scenarios.

Or maybe I'm overthinking and Caesar won't rebel at all. Thoughts?

[Housellama]

He'll just take a Bunny, bunch of loyal units, Benny and jet.

(emphasis mine)

I have to ask if you did that on purpose, or whether the joke was just incidental awesome...

[No one in particular]

It was totally intentional. Glad someone noticed!

[GaryThunder]

I think a coup by Caesar is almost inevitable. Recall Caesar's namesake, Cesare Borgia, and his long history of backstabbing and betrayal. I'd be surprised if Caesar doesn't have a length of piano wire or similar in his rumpled suit pocket right now.

[No one in particular]

Friends, Transylvitans, casters, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives on after them;
The good is oft vanished with their hits;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Benjamin
Hath told you that Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.

And it goes on for a bit, and then Vinnie is overcome with emotion and has to pause in his eulogy.

[normalphil]

It looks like the tragedy of Don King is that he didn't know his man. He thought he did, but there was a world inside Caesar's head that he never suspected existed.

[drachefly]

I think a coup by Caesar is almost inevitable. Recall Caesar's namesake, Cesare Borgia, and his long history of backstabbing and betrayal. I'd be surprised if Caesar doesn't have a length of piano wire or similar in his rumpled suit pocket right now.

I don't think so. Just doesn't seem like that's how he's been presented.

How do we know he's Cesare Borgia? His name is based on a casino (exact matches instead of slant matches), and his first name fits equally well into other historical roles. He's the Viscount of Vitalis, not the duke of Valentinois.

[GaryThunder]

You don't name a character after a politician so ruthless and backstabbery that Niccolo freakin' Machiavelli was his number-one fan without having him backstab someone at some point. As for the title thing, Caesar's minor title is a plot point, and Vitalis -> Valentinois look fairly similar to me.

As for the current situation, though, I don't think Caesar is going to betray Don just for the sake of doing it, but he has no choice if he wants Transylvito to hold together. That's what motivated Cesare as well. What he did, he did for his principality, not just for the sheer pleasure of betrayal.

[Fannin]

I don't think he'll attempt a coup, probably just a crazy theory but this may just be laying the groundwork for Caesar to demonstrate the turning mechanic from http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-12-08.jpg. He's Chief Warlord so he can send himself and his faction to the border of GK and turn. We've seen inside his head and thus far he has only been thinking of trying to reason with Don not over throw him. I suspect Don will get the gem but leave Caesar alive and with low enough loyalty to turn.

It also provides a reasonable start for Parson to create a living officer corp since he has been shown to be uncomfortable with the decrypted during the summer updates. Parson would certainly be willing to consider to Caesar's opinions and strategies and at this point GK has a small supply of warlords (during the attack on Progrock there were no commanders indicating they don't have enough warlords for all their cities). It also would give Caesar a shot at Jillian which given the mutual antagonism seems somewhat likely to occur at some point.

[GaryThunder]

Parson and Caesar on the same side? Oh ho ho, that would be just goddamn amazing. Caesar would quickly grow to respect Parson, I think.