Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby heyduck » Wed May 18, 2011 4:44 pm

Housellama wrote:
I disagree with you about the siege. Here we see Vinnie figure it out, but only because he's forced to think outside the box. He is presented with results that do not match the situation. He knows for a FACT that this isn't right. It is then and ONLY then that he begins to consider what could have caused this. A few comics later, Stanley freaks out about the same thing. Everyone in Erfworld is trained on the win/lose scenario. That's not really a cheat, in the way that the falling men is a cheat. It's not even that far outside the box. A stack without Leadership can only attack blindly. A stack WITH Leadership can pick its targets. That's all Parson did. Attack selectively.


This still works for my assumption that people in erfworld are competent, Vinnie a warlord who knows nothing about Parson, knew from the get go that something was wrong he just couldn't figure out what since they did not have the full battle report. Later on when they get in the center hex we see Vinny give Ansom two options on how to get of the situation, but Ansom give a third (better option) that works; this just shows that they aren't perfect, sometimes they have good ideas, sometimes they don't.
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby SteveMB » Wed May 18, 2011 4:45 pm

heyduck wrote:2. I believe that warlords in Erfworld are competent and know basic and advanced tactics.


No doubt, especially given that units popped as warlords are apparently created with that knowledge, since units generally are created with the knowledge needed to fill their roles. We know that lower-ranked units can become warlords (e.g. Stanley), which indicates that it's possible to learn new skills after being popped... but the sources for learning would be existing warlords and the city libraries (which are mostly descriptions of past battles).

All that suggests to me that while warlords are familiar with tactics, perhaps at an advanced level, they are predisposed against thinking outside the box and developing new tactics. It's not impossible -- Vinny and Tramennis seem to be particularly good at analyzing the curve balls Parson is throwing at them -- but it is difficult.
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby Housellama » Wed May 18, 2011 5:01 pm

SteveMB wrote:
heyduck wrote:2. I believe that warlords in Erfworld are competent and know basic and advanced tactics.


No doubt, especially given that units popped as warlords are apparently created with that knowledge, since units generally are created with the knowledge needed to fill their roles. We know that lower-ranked units can become warlords (e.g. Stanley), which indicates that it's possible to learn new skills after being popped... but the sources for learning would be existing warlords and the city libraries (which are mostly descriptions of past battles).

All that suggests to me that while warlords are familiar with tactics, perhaps at an advanced level, they are predisposed against thinking outside the box and developing new tactics. It's not impossible -- Vinny and Tramennis seem to be particularly good at analyzing the curve balls Parson is throwing at them -- but it is difficult.


I have never argued that Erfworld Warlords didn't know their jobs. I simply stated that since Parson's arrival, they have been forced to change the way they think and act. And if you will notice, I have specifically praised both Vinny and Tram in my posts as being quick on the uptake. They are the 'young guns' I have referred to, ready to step up and take up the place of the hidebound old guard.

My personal opinion is that Ansom, while he may be a functional general against the opponents he is used to fighting against, isn't exactly the sharpest, heh, tool in the box. I believe that Ansom might be a very good warlord, against other Erfworld warlords. Parson took him apart without breaking a sweat. And Parson's taken every Erfworld warlord he's faced apart without breaking a sweat. Because while they may be very good at fighting against the opponents that they have faced in the past, their skills are far from adequate to face an opponent who is used to fighting under the conditions that anyone from StupidWorld are used to fighting.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby heyduck » Wed May 18, 2011 5:32 pm

Housellama wrote:My personal opinion is that Ansom, while he may be a functional general against the opponents he is used to fighting against, isn't exactly the sharpest, heh, tool in the box. I believe that Ansom might be a very good warlord, against other Erfworld warlords. Parson took him apart without breaking a sweat. And Parson's taken every Erfworld warlord he's faced apart without breaking a sweat. Because while they may be very good at fighting against the opponents that they have faced in the past, their skills are far from adequate to face an opponent who is used to fighting under the conditions that anyone from StupidWorld are used to fighting.


I wouldn't say he took him apart without a sweat, Parson definitely was taxed by Ansom, and all of his tactics (Parson's) were countered, sure he gave Ansom a run for his money, but Ansom pulled through not just by throwing men at it, but by actually utilizing his resources. It was two good warlords against each other, one with little forces some casters and and a heavily fortified city, against a massive army with siege, and no casters, and in truth? Parson has only fought against Ansom, no one else (well I guess Tramennis too now), he was consulted, but Ansom ran the show since then, and I doubt he ever consulted him.

Did Ansom make mistakes? Yep, but every good leader makes mistakes sometime, Parson completely forgot about Jillian's flyers until it was too late, and he thought the plan to capture/croak Ansom would have worked until Vinny saved his friend from his emotions.

Last thought, basically the way I see erfworlders are casual players who play the game the way the creators intended, then Parson comes in and tries to break "the spirit of the rules" by utilizing the most powerful units in the game (casters). Everything else is moot, all the tactics before were good, but not enough; the erf worlders knew how to fight against those tactics ( if you want to believe that Parson expanded tactics by them that's fine I don't think we'll ever see eye-to-eye here no matter how much we debate, but I believe that any competent warlord could have made them up that's why Ansom was able to counter them so effectively) it wasn't until he was cornered that he decided to pull the over-powerful and dreaded TPK.
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby Housellama » Wed May 18, 2011 6:03 pm

heyduck wrote:
Housellama wrote:My personal opinion is that Ansom, while he may be a functional general against the opponents he is used to fighting against, isn't exactly the sharpest, heh, tool in the box. I believe that Ansom might be a very good warlord, against other Erfworld warlords. Parson took him apart without breaking a sweat. And Parson's taken every Erfworld warlord he's faced apart without breaking a sweat. Because while they may be very good at fighting against the opponents that they have faced in the past, their skills are far from adequate to face an opponent who is used to fighting under the conditions that anyone from StupidWorld are used to fighting.


I wouldn't say he took him apart without a sweat, Parson definitely was taxed by Ansom, and all of his tactics (Parson's) were countered, sure he gave Ansom a run for his money, but Ansom pulled through not just by throwing men at it, but by actually utilizing his resources. It was two good warlords against each other, one with little forces some casters and and a heavily fortified city, against a massive army with siege, and no casters, and in truth? Parson has only fought against Ansom, no one else (well I guess Tramennis too now), he was consulted, but Ansom ran the show since then, and I doubt he ever consulted him.

Did Ansom make mistakes? Yep, but every good leader makes mistakes sometime, Parson completely forgot about Jillian's flyers until it was too late, and he thought the plan to capture/croak Ansom would have worked until Vinny saved his friend from his emotions.

Last thought, basically the way I see erfworlders are casual players who play the game the way the creators intended, then Parson comes in and tries to break "the spirit of the rules" by utilizing the most powerful units in the game (casters). Everything else is moot, all the tactics before were good, but not enough; the erf worlders knew how to fight against those tactics ( if you want to believe that Parson expanded tactics by them that's fine I don't think we'll ever see eye-to-eye here no matter how much we debate, but I believe that any competent warlord could have made them up that's why Ansom was able to counter them so effectively) it wasn't until he was cornered that he decided to pull the over-powerful and dreaded TPK.


We'll agree to disagree. You back up your opinions well. They have merit. I just don't agree with them. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

What this really comes down to, it sounds like, is different philosophies. Here's the difference between us, I think. You appear to be thinking of it as a game. I don't see it that way. It looks like a game, smells like a game, plays like a game, but it ain't no game. This is war. In war, you don't play games. Especially in a scenario like the one Parson has found himself in, you either play to win everything, or you go home. Honor and trust are tools and weapons, nothing more. You use your assets as efficiently as possible, getting the most gain for the least loss as possible from everything. If a cheat will help you a lot more than it hurts you in the long run, you do it. If you have to make a sacrifice now for a greater gain later, you do it.

In order to fight and win a war like that, you have to see the big picture, and think long term. You have to be able to sum up your situation and prioritize your goals. You have to be able to think outside the box, and understand yourself and your enemy. And you have to be willing to be a cold hearted bastard willing to potentially sacrifice everything to get the job done. Parson was all those things. Hence the TPK. Ansom and the Erfworld warlords are used to playing a game, even though they are actually waging war. Parson is used to waging war, even though he's actually playing a game. And to me, that's the difference.
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby the_tick_rules » Wed May 18, 2011 11:18 pm

Ansom and parson both have their roles, parson the thinker, ansom the fighter. Parson is better at expoliting erf rules cause he's sees them as like D&D rules to be exploited. Erf people see them as natural rules of the world It's like our world, we work within the laws of physics but only our smartest physicists think of ways to work around them like faster than light travel and stuff.
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby Housellama » Thu May 19, 2011 3:28 pm

the_tick_rules wrote:Ansom and parson both have their roles, parson the thinker, ansom the fighter. Parson is better at expoliting erf rules cause he's sees them as like D&D rules to be exploited. Erf people see them as natural rules of the world It's like our world, we work within the laws of physics but only our smartest physicists think of ways to work around them like faster than light travel and stuff.


Oh absolutely. Both have their place. Decrypted Ansom has the bonus. His place is on the field. But I strongly believe that, while Ansom might be a strong tactician against opponents he knows and is used to fighting against, Parson is a much better strategist and tactician overall, even against opponents Ansom may excel against.

There's a lot more to the difference in fighting styles than just their roles. The entire mindset is different. MarbitChow brought up a very good point earlier. Erfworlder Commanders tend to see units as expendable. Parson is used to human beings, who are NOT expendable. When you see your troops as individuals who are not simply things to be thrown away, you use very different tactics. Another thing MarbitChow mentions is upkeep. That's another difference. Decrypted no longer have upkeep, so in addition to being individuals and therefore not expendable it doesn't make SENSE to throw them away. They don't cost you anything. So why sacrifice valuable and useful resources needlessly?

Yeah, Parson can exploit the rules of the world, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. There's a fundamental difference in the way he thinks about damn near everything. He's used to thinking and 'fighting' under conditions that, while different, are much tougher and carry much heavier consequences than Erfworld, IMO. Realtime combat is much harder to deal with than turn-based, as Jetstone's troops are quickly discovering. In this much more forgiving turn based world, that gives him a huge advantage in NORMAL war in Erfworld, never mind breaking the rules. His ability to break the rules is the cherry on top that makes an exceptional Warlord Perfect.

Erfworlders have been doing things the same way since the Titans created them, they haven't really changed. Yes, they may be competent tacticians and strategists. Yes, there are several cases in the story where some exceptional strategies are implemented by Erfworld warlords. (The ambush on Caesar comes to mind. That was well played on both sides.) HOWEVER, I do not believe that the current 'old guard' are prepared to deal with someone like Parson, who thinks about war and most everything else in a completely different way. They are used to opponents that think like they do.

When you train in a martial art, you spend a lot of time training in the dojo with other people training in the same martial art. The first time you go out and spar against someone trained in a different art is a real eye-opener, especially if it's not their first time. It usually ends up with you getting the boop kicked out of you. Why? Because you don't know any different. You have trained against people who are trained the same way you are. You have learned to read how they react, and since they are trained like you are, you know what to expect. Yes, you can still be surprised. Yes, they can still kick your ass and you can still kick theirs. But you understand what and why and how. When you go out into the world and fight someone trained differently for the first time, you have no idea what you are seeing. Suddenly, you're a novice again, staring in incomprehension as a well trained opponent thrashes you soundly. (Speaking from painful first hand experience) That's when you come back and look at your training anew. You start to learn new lessons from old techniques, because you are seeing them differently now.

My point is this. Erfworlders have only seen one style. They have been fighting in the style that the Titans taught them. And yanno, they are pretty good at it. But now, someone brought in a ringer. And he's a Grandmaster from another style. He walked into a situation that no one should have been able to survive, much less win. Yet he did. And he's kept on winning. He sees things differently than they do, and he is kicking their asses with it. The Titans never explicitly taught them how to deal with this, but the lessons are there. They have to go back to what they know and learn new lessons from old things, otherwise they are going to KEEP getting their asses kicked. Vinnie and Tram are learning. Jack is learning. Ansom's ego keeps him from learning. Who else? We'll see...
"All warfare is based on deception" - Sun Tzu, Chapter 1, Line 18, The Art of War

"The principle of strategy is to know ten thousand things by having one thing." - Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Earth, Go Rin No Sho
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu May 19, 2011 6:51 pm

Good point on decrypted. In most battle cases it's wiser to send in the living first cause wanda can just bring them up for round 2. Though Wanda certainly treats them as expendable pawns who are just her tools of fate and with an ever chaning roster of replacements they are probably seen by her as more faceless than most rulers see their living units. Erf did indeed lack creativity, which is why charlie wants him either on his side or gone. C-man loved the status quo cause he built his finanaces around expoiting it.
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby stcredzero » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:33 pm

SteveMB wrote:All that suggests to me that while warlords are familiar with tactics, perhaps at an advanced level, they are predisposed against thinking outside the box and developing new tactics. It's not impossible -- Vinny and Tramennis seem to be particularly good at analyzing the curve balls Parson is throwing at them -- but it is difficult.


It's one thing to innovate with tactics and strategies when you are playing a table-top game. It's another thing entirely when there are lives at stake, including your own. In that situation, traditions and known ways of doing things are held onto as a stabilizing force. When your life is at risk, it's much harder to think of something new, unknown, and therefore risky and have the will to try it.

Originally, it was the duty and honor of artillerymen to stay at their posts to defend their guns no matter what. However, technology moved on and artillery got more accurate over longer ranges and explosive shells were perfected. As a result, bombardments often resulted in everything soft and squishy around guns targeted by explosive shells to be destroyed, while the guns themselves, being metal, were often untouched. Then the smart thing to do became for artillerymen under counter-battery fire was to run and take cover. Yet it took many years for tactics to catch up.

Massed charges of infantry with fixed bayonets stopped being effective sometime in the 1800's - improving rifle technology just made it suicidal. Most of the casualties in the Civil War not due to disease were probably due to such inadvisable assaults. This even persisted up through the 20th century in WWI, when you had massed direct infantry assaults of machine gun nests. Tradition takes longer to die on the battlefield. The generals and admirals who always prepare for the last war aren't stupid. It's just very different being in their shoes.
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby drachefly » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:59 pm

Often, they're also stupid.
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby stcredzero » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:37 pm

drachefly wrote:Often, they're also stupid.


Okay, sometimes they're also stupid. There's nothing like the stress of mortal danger to bring this out of a lot of people.
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Re: Erfworld's Evolving Warfare

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:44 pm

Maybe some levity is in order?
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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