crokamancy

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crokamancy

Postby bob the 6th » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:41 pm

how limited is crokamancy.

wanda seems only able to animate the croked, but this is rather limited for a whole branch of magic. sizmore can make golems, build and dig. thought amancy has a hundreds of uses, from listening, comunicateing, disrupting, and thought control. but wanda can animate, and lead the croked. this seems a little unbalenced. most systems allow necromancers to throw around status affects, blast people with negative energy, or outright rip the souls out of oponets.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby cloudbreaker » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:40 am

So far the only Croakamancy type spell that has been hinted at, other than uncroaking units, is a headache spell. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Wanda had a death-touch spell or an inflict pain spell or something too. It is still unknown and I hope we find out in the future.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby ftl » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:50 am

I think it's being kept in reserve. Right now, Wanda with her pliers and uncroaked has enough power, and at some point in future books when this changes, then we'll have a discussion of what else Croakamancy can do. Right now, plotwise, it's just not necessary.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby Saladman » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:56 pm

The precedent from Turnamancers is, casters have whatever fits their name, sometimes even unrelated powers. Its quite possible she has direct death spells, for a literal and active meaning of "croaking." If she does, perhaps they cost more juice on a one-for-one basis than, say, Shockmancy, which seems to be the Discipline of direct damage. In any case, if uncroaking enemy troops for your side is the most efficient use of juice in the long run, its not surprising we haven't seen other applications.

But I wouldn't be broken up if Croakamancers didn't have every trapping of necromancers ala Warcraft, WoW or whatever. Uncroaked troops in greater numbers than we ever saw of golems from Sizemore, plus uncroaked warlords, plus a special Croakamancer leadership bonus stackable with warlord leadership is all plenty powerful. I wouldn't call them "unbalanced" in any sense of "underpowered."
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Re: crokamancy

Postby WaterMonkey314 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:48 pm

Saladman wrote:The precedent from Turnamancers is, casters have whatever fits their name, sometimes even unrelated powers. Its quite possible she has direct death spells, for a literal and active meaning of "croaking." If she does, perhaps they cost more juice on a one-for-one basis than, say, Shockmancy, which seems to be the Discipline of direct damage. In any case, if uncroaking enemy troops for your side is the most efficient use of juice in the long run, its not surprising we haven't seen other applications.

But I wouldn't be broken up if Croakamancers didn't have every trapping of necromancers ala Warcraft, WoW or whatever. Uncroaked troops in greater numbers than we ever saw of golems from Sizemore, plus uncroaked warlords, plus a special Croakamancer leadership bonus stackable with warlord leadership is all plenty powerful. I wouldn't call them "unbalanced" in any sense of "underpowered."


For an even greater pun on words, perhaps Wanda can interfere with an enemy's command structure by making their warlords only croak instead of speak. :P
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Re: crokamancy

Postby charles » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:02 pm

I don't think caster classes/types are necessarily balanced or even should be.

A Thinkamancer is obviously a very valuable caster to have and may even cost more shmuckers per turn or something.

Don't discount Croakamancers though. We never saw Ace or Sizemore raze a massive army of golems like Wanda did with all those uncroaked, so there's various benefits to croakamancy over other arts that can form Golems. You also get a variety of golems that seem to retain many of the abilities their former forms had including flight, leadership and possibly other specials.

Who knows, maybe Wanda's ability to cast outside her discipline is also a known trait of Croakamancy rather than something unique to her or common among other caster types.

Obviously there's also the whole ability to add bonuses to the troops stacked with you and lead them in dance fighting.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby bob the 6th » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:56 pm

but one, the golems suck so much, they are weaker than common infantry, and dirtimancers give a bonus to units in there stack.
and two, there were many cases were a crock would have been useful, like knocking ansom out of the air so she did not have to take him face to face.
and third, I suspect the headache spell is under thinkamancy.
fourth, it just seems a little two focused for an entire class of caster.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby drachefly » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:36 pm

bob the 6th wrote:but one, the golems suck so much, they are weaker than common infantry


what what?
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Re: crokamancy

Postby bob the 6th » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:44 pm

unless she spends time on them, and there not dnce fighting, they suck. the author has yet to pitch them in a strait up fight. but the one time it was dance fight to dance fight in the court yard, they got DESTROYED. and if this world is like any game involving zombies (masters of magic, D&D,ect.) the zombies or scelitens don't level or heal.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby bob the 6th » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:48 pm

opposed to even the crap golems, witch seem to be stronger, bigger, longer lasting, and able to use some shockamancy with activation from a dirtimancer. they ate a leadership stack with no casualties.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby Sieggy » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:24 pm

Dunno, a damaged rock golem (though Sizemore had just whupped a "pozzelana" healing spell on it) took out Webinar & Dora pretty quickly . . .
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Re: crokamancy

Postby bob the 6th » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:33 pm

thats the point, rock golems are way better than uncroked but dirtamancers can also move earth and build stuff, were crokamancers can just uncrok so far. I mean, even if it was just some special uncroks like gosts, vampires, goules, or even deamons, the class would look more promising, but no just zombies
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Re: crokamancy

Postby drachefly » Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:55 pm

… so you didn't mean golems, you meant uncroaked basic infantry. They're not golems.

But look at the leadership corps(e) of GK at the beginning of book 1. 5 warlords. And later on, flying units. Multiple, created in minutes and probably good quality. The next day, thousands raised. The golems were built up over a period of how long? We don't know, but probably a lot longer than that. Quantity has a quality of its own.

Incidentally, croak has an A in it. It's there to make the O sound long, so it doesn't sound like crock.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby bob the 6th » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:08 pm

thought something was wrong, but they are gollems, created and controled by a caster. it is a term that allows them to be compared esaly. so yes a croakamncer can make many small golems quickly as long as it has juice and dead bodies, and they degrade quickly. also the bodies can't be stored esaly. so a croakamancer needs to be in or near battle wich is ascing to be killed or captured, find dead bodies on it's turn, and then it has a use, and thats it. wich seems kind of a raw deal. in last stand surcumstances when you kill lots of enamies and can pull them to the caster they are usefull, and they can animate all in a hex, but that was a high level spell.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby Emordnys » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:13 pm

I would like to note that she appears to have croaked two arrows in panel 6 of page 51, book 2. with 'myth'. Maybe she croaked arrow copies made by the Dittomancer, and the actual ability is being able to 'croak' spells. This would be backed up if she is the caster who created the Staff of Suckage.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby Shuuwki » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:30 am

I had always thought that Jack had something to do with the "Myth" arrow counter ability. Croakamancy strikes me more along the lines of Mathamancy or Dittomancy - efficiency focused, but no combat uses.

Croakamancy is a potentially incredible magic in the right circumstances. It breaks a fundamental tenet of combat in Erfworld in that dead units are meant to stay dead, and it also breaks the rules in that the uncroaked infantry have no upkeep. Now the Uncroaked are not the rival of properly trained and equipped infantry of the same level, unless they're created in very small numbers over a long period of time, and even then it's mindless undead attempting to battle adaptable, quick-witted units. The benefits to efficiency in a combat situation, and limits of Croakmancy itself, really spell themselves out here - a solid Croakamancer can turn defeat into victory simply by animating the dead on both sides, but this assumes that one side isn't crushing its opponent under weight of combat multipliers. If that's the case, Croakamancy won't be much help in terms of raw numbers, because that's ultimately an additive bonus.

In addition, the Uncroaked gain much larger combat bonuses from a Croakamancer acting as a warlord than would be expected. An example might help. There were a lot of modifiers in the Dance-Off encounter late in book 1, but prior to Ansom ordering the Archons to begin their dance-fighting augment, the RCC forces were being annihilated despite the presence of Prince Anson in the hex, providing his large Chief Warlord bonus to the entirety of the combatants. Stacking the Dance Fighting bonus (most likely, a direct multiplier to be applied after all passive bonuses are resolved) on top of the Croakamancer bonus to the Uncroaked was enough for it to overcome the Coalition force, despite the uncroaked featured in this encounter being substantially weaker than standard infantry, and requiring a higher multiplier in order to be effective.

Anyway, just my thoughts. I wish we had more exposure to the raw numbers underpining Erfworld so that we could really postulate things, but so far the closest we've gotten is a look at Bogroll.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby drachefly » Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:50 am

bob the 6th wrote:thought something was wrong, but they are gollems, created and controled by a caster. it is a term that allows them to be compared esaly.


except that by using words to mean things we don't expect them to mean, look what 'efficiency' you've wrought... Standard usage is a good thing to stick with.

And if you think the only times there are large numbers of casualties is in last stand situations, think again. You can send an army in, win, send in the croakamancer, raise people. If you were defending, you don't even need to win, so long as the attackers moved on without destroying the bodies.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby bob the 6th » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:57 am

but that means having a caster within move, without heavy fliers thats asking to be ambushed, and if the army loses, the caster is away from home. also to gain any use for the leading and dance fighting, the caster needs to be in at least the same hex. it is still a caster, and at low levels prolly a caster with only a few uncroaks to be between it and the enemy.

I enjoy necromancers, this is not a knock on them, its just seems a little odd to have none of Wanda's other powers being shown. the other mancies are multi use, dollamncers can make accessories and cloth golems, dirtimancers can make golems and dig, thinkimancers can connect anyone with anyone else and suggest. it just seems most casters get a this and that, not just a that.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby drachefly » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:23 pm

Of course having a fast flier helps!

But suppose the croakamancer is in a border city. That's called a defensive strong point, and even if a nearby field army loses, the croakamancer is fairly safe. If the army was on the defense, the sheer existence of the croakamancer forces the enemy to take precautions that sap its resources - precautions like surrounding the (likely multi-hex) battlefield with sentries, each capable of repelling whatever fast strike the croakamancer's side has on hand - or if that's impossible, taking the time and energy to dispose of every one of the fallen. And that's the worst case!

And suppose some effort is made, as it reasonably might be. A victorious army can send a detachment to meet the croakamancer halfway, bringing the bodies of the fallen enemy warlords and other high-value subjects of uncroaking - or more, if lots of soldiers are needed soon and briefly.

Lastly, a shockamancer will be every bit as restricted as a croakamancer in utility, right? But, you may say, shockamancers can at least make scrolls. Why suspect that croakamancers can't? We haven't seen them in use, but we've mainly seen in action, on the one side, Wanda, who made scroll use nearly superfluous, and could have been spending her juice on maintaining the many uncroaked anyway (depending on mechanics); and on the other side, sides which A) don't approve of croakamancy (Jetstone), B) don't seem to have many casters and none in the field (Transylvito), or C) got steamrolled so suddenly and offscreen that we wouldn't have seen any croakamancy scroll use even if they were willing and able, but seems likely they're also in category A anyway (Unaroyal).

There are restrictions, sure, but there's a lot of power there. I see no need for them to have additional abilities, though I wouldn't be surprised if they have others.
Last edited by drachefly on Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: crokamancy

Postby Sojiko » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:30 pm

Making the undead dance-fight is an ability that come from mastery of croakamancy.

So "using your uncroaked troops better" is part of what Croakamancy, meaning it does a bit more than uncroaking.

Speaking of uncroaking, note it can both raise hundreds of soldiers at once, or to make troops much more powerful by focusing the efforts. That gives considerable flexibility in the troop fabrication front, allowing the caster to freely adjust quantity and quality based on the efforts they are willing to spend.

Finally, having no upkeep is a BIG deal. Note that numerous times Gobwin Knob was able to pull off a stunt because they had money to burn, while Jetsone is in a pickle because they are broke (they might have had to destroy one of their own cities to afford the upkeep ... if they had crushed Wanda at Spacerock!). Upkeep is most likely Charlie's biggest concern too, and same thing for barbarians for example.
Not having to deal with that money sink is a pretty significant advantage.
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