Scroll usage in Erfworld

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Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:40 pm

As we all know, scrolls have played a critical role on the story, from Summon Perfect Warlord to Wanda's private stash to dwagon harvesting to Jojo. They allow a mancer to both tap in other schools of magic and go over her normal juice limits in a single day.

However the question raises, how comes GK seems to be the only side widely using scrolls? This isn't just Hamster's tactical genius, Wanda already had said scrolls long before he was summoned.

But none of the other sides so far (save Jojo) ever use scrolls! Like another poster here pointed out, where are Jetstone casters private stashes? Why aren't they discussing how to best use their last cards?

Some possible explanations:
-Scrolls may be quite usefull but are also damn expensive. GK has always been the richest side we see, and Wanda is chief mancer of GK, so she's is basically a spoiled child that can afford the best toys, while other sides struggle with money and scrolls are low priority when you have upkeeps to pay and heirs to promote. Or you're Sizemore and all you get as extra payment is literally crap.
-Wanda, on top of being an exceptional mancer, melee monster and devious manipulator, is the only erfworlder who ever tought of keeping a scroll stash handy. Somewhat suspicious, but she keeps pulling out new secrets at every turn.
-Really bad luck. Other sides did have stashes of scrolls, but ended up spending them on other conflicts (Jetstone vs Haggar) just before GK reached them.
-They're just that stupid. Considering on how nobody in GK mentioned their own stash scroll until Wanda was broken and dying and the walls were falling, it's quite possible that other sides do have stashes of scrolls, but nobody remembers them until it's (almost) too late.

Toughts?
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby Lamech » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:15 pm

But none of the other sides so far (save Jojo) ever use scrolls! Like another poster here pointed out, where are Jetstone casters private stashes? Why aren't they discussing how to best use their last cards?
But they do have some scrolls. They just didn't want to use them, but that makes sense. Tower can only do one thing one place, while scrolls can do one thing anywhere. Use the tower shots while you can.

Now why hasn't Jetstone used scrolls? Well we haven't seen a whole lot of caster use in the first place. We've seen/heard-of the dittomancer double arrows, some things getting made, Pierce healing and firing tower spells. You're not going to bother with a scroll when making items; you'll just make an item. We don't know if Pierce cast any scrolls, obviously the tower doesn't use scrolls, and it seems plausible that the dittomancer didn't have a double, double arrow scroll on hand.
Finally why aren't they discussing how best to use there last scrolls? Well they probably are. They are discussing how to get Slately out of the tower. They are discussing what magic they can pull off. I would guess the use of both scrolls and juice is implied.

Also I note scrolls presumably take juice, and Jetstone may have spent there juice on other things. The dollamancer has golems and items to churn out. The hatamancer can apparently make hats and provide materials to the dollamancer, I bet he pulls Orlies out of his hat too. Pierce might have spent his juice on healing potions. The dittomancer can apparently double production and who knows what else. So its possible the Jetstone juice got spent elsewhere in large part as well.
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby Saladman » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:42 pm

Yeah, I think Lamech has it. Scrolls almost have to cost juice, and more speculatively, there might be some amount of juice lost compared to direct casting. Anyone who can make a golem probably gets ordered to do that (Ace and Sizemore both that we've seen). Thinkamancers have a non-combat role as well as reason to keep a personal reserve of juice, and several casters may have a useful non-combat function (Math-, Money-, Look-, Find- and Luck- all come to mind). Casters without a non-combat function but not risked in battle probably should make scrolls or items, but we've seen a pretty diverse set of items so there's that to take up their time. Pierce stirs his drink with a wand of cure wounds, for example. There's also storing spells in the Tower, which might be more efficient for eligible spells than scrolls.

I guess on the "just that stupid" side, Ace was having to spend his left-over juice after golems on raiment for the court, which is pretty darn bad in hindsight given the shape they're in, but I guess is the kind of thing that happens when your side looks secure.
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby bob the 6th » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:55 pm

its more of a balance, royal sides have more powerful units, but they are kind of ditzy about there court and have a strict sense of honor.
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:44 am

Lamech wrote: Also I note scrolls presumably take juice, and Jetstone may have spent there juice on other things. The dollamancer has golems and items to churn out. The hatamancer can apparently make hats and provide materials to the dollamancer, I bet he pulls Orlies out of his hat too. Pierce might have spent his juice on healing potions. The dittomancer can apparently double production and who knows what else. So its possible the Jetstone juice got spent elsewhere in large part as well.


An interesting point, but like Saladman pointed out, we see mancers spend their leftover juice in quite unoptimal choices, like fancy clothes for the court.

Or more in case, Transylvito's thinkmancer who spends her remaining juice during night talking to her boyfriend, instead of making some scrolls.
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby bob the 6th » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:08 am

it also may be that this is like the real world, and if you run at max capacity you implode if you get no off time. see the fact of the 8 hour work day. a ten or twelve hour would get more done, but people want time to unwind. they do it in different ways, and casters in the strangest of all
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby GaryThunder » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:54 pm

bob the 6th wrote:it also may be that this is like the real world, and if you run at max capacity you implode if you get no off time. see the fact of the 8 hour work day. a ten or twelve hour would get more done, but people want time to unwind. they do it in different ways, and casters in the strangest of all


This. Caster units are so rare and valuable that a smart Ruler wouldn't dare try to squeeze every last drop of juice out of his casters. They'd get sick of him, maybe even leave to the Magic Kingdom. Certainly they wouldn't be at their most effective.
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:30 pm

GaryThunder wrote:
bob the 6th wrote:it also may be that this is like the real world, and if you run at max capacity you implode if you get no off time. see the fact of the 8 hour work day. a ten or twelve hour would get more done, but people want time to unwind. they do it in different ways, and casters in the strangest of all


This. Caster units are so rare and valuable that a smart Ruler wouldn't dare try to squeeze every last drop of juice out of his casters. They'd get sick of him, maybe even leave to the Magic Kingdom. Certainly they wouldn't be at their most effective.


"Sick"? This is Erfworld. Unless they plan to backstab you, units will gladly fight for you to their last breath.

Just look at Jack. Under Stanley's service, he had his mind shattered and for two times he faced hopeless defeat and a chance to escape (Transylvito ambush and kingworld). Both times, he choose to stick with Stanley. And aparently still had some time to make foolmancy scrolls to its side.

In the same vein, I don't see Maggie ever finishing a turn with any leftover juice. She's always checking up on troops, keeping GK's forces coordinated, refreshing Hamster's mind and projecting thinkgrams . And then aparently also has some time to crank up some scrolls for Wanda.

Also, we've seen that mancers can unwind by more "classic" means. We've seen Wanda's bondage sections, Sizemore and Maggie seem to enjoy just talking and eating/drinking and overall having a good time (heck they even had a picnic), and everybody but Hamster aparently gets laid here and there.
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby Beeskee » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:57 pm

GaryThunder wrote:This. Caster units are so rare and valuable that a smart Ruler wouldn't dare try to squeeze every last drop of juice out of his casters. They'd get sick of him, maybe even leave to the Magic Kingdom. Certainly they wouldn't be at their most effective.


I think it's the opposite, a caster might question a leader who they felt wasn't using them to their fullest extent. We know from the glossary that caster juice gets refilled to full each day. Who wouldn't want to make the most use of that? Tho of course rulers should delay draining caster juice completely until the end of the day, in case something unexpected happens.

Individual casters might not agree with the specific use of their juice, as we saw with Ace being disgruntled about having to make costumes and clothing instead of toys, er, combat accessories. But so far as we've seen, he's still loyal to his side. It could be argued that he's upset BECAUSE of his loyalty, he feels he could do better for his side than making raiment.


As far as the original question goes, other sides do seem to have scrolls, I think we haven't seen them used due a combination of the story being focused on GK plus no ideal situations for using scrolls have come up for the other sides. Scrolls made in the MK need to be purchased, and the other sides have been relatively cash-poor.
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby GaryThunder » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:59 pm

Casters have a huge amount of latitude with their Rulers, though, Duty and Loyalty notwithstanding. Look at Benny for a prime example. A caster knows that nothing short of open rebellion could possibly put him in danger of disbandment, because he's effectively irreplaceable.
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby Sojiko » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:15 am

OK, first, Loyalty does exist. Treating your casters like shit and working them to the bones might be bad for their Loyalty stat and make them more unreliable, which would not be a bad idea.

Next, Erfworld doesn't do "continuous" but "discrete", meaning you likely cannot spend what juice you have on a scroll. You either have enough to make one, or you don't. If a scroll costs 100 juice and you have 20 at the end of the turn, you can't make a scroll. Spending the rest of your reserves on fancy clothes or discussions with the boyfriend may not be that frivolous, or at least not related to lack of scrolls (wasting thinkamancer juice is almost always dangerous, in case of ambush that demands fast communications).


Next, we simply didn't get much occasion to see a scroll in action in the first place. As we can see from Tramenis's orders, scrolls are best conserved for after the casters have ran out of juice, which may not have happened yet in the battle of Spacerock. A battle that has not been shown "on screen" for the most part, especially the end (and they weren't going to start using scrolls as it started). Other sides simply didn't have an exhausting battle with casters on screen, so we didn't get to see them using scrolls.
As was pointed out the casters in the towers are likely discussing how to use their scrolls right now. It's simply not part of what we see because it's not interesting.
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby Lamech » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:18 pm

Sojiko wrote:Next, we simply didn't get much occasion to see a scroll in action in the first place. As we can see from Tramenis's orders, scrolls are best conserved for after the casters have ran out of juice, which may not have happened yet in the battle of Spacerock. A battle that has not been shown "on screen" for the most part, especially the end (and they weren't going to start using scrolls as it started). Other sides simply didn't have an exhausting battle with casters on screen, so we didn't get to see them using scrolls.
Minor nitpick. Scrolls are best conserved for after the tower has run out of spells. When the situation is do or die, the spells in the tower are the least versatility, (can only hit the air space and appeared to be just bolts of lighting besides), then scrolls are used (each scroll can have a different spell and be cast anywhere), then juice is used since that is any spell anywhere.

(And of course in normal situations this is presumably reversed as scrolls presumably eat up more juice to make than casting the spell directly.)
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Re: Scroll usage in Erfworld

Postby Sojiko » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:09 pm

Lamech wrote:Minor nitpick. Scrolls are best conserved for after the tower has run out of spells. When the situation is do or die, the spells in the tower are the least versatility, (can only hit the air space and appeared to be just bolts of lighting besides), then scrolls are used (each scroll can have a different spell and be cast anywhere), then juice is used since that is any spell anywhere.


Depends. Scrolls have less versatility than juice-fueled spell since you can only cast what's written on them. So in a bind, you'll want to conserve juice to have more than 1 option left.


But juice will just come back fully on the next turn, while scrolls are left. Unless it is the very last stand (as in "the last turn", not "the last battle"), conserving scrolls when possible is smart. Finishing a turn with enough juice to cast after using up a scroll means you now have less resources you could have had and gained nothing from it.
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