Fundamental Assumptions

[Backdoor Nucleotide]

I'm making a new topic for this rather than continue the old one since: 1. It got ugly because it was SRS BZNZ, and 2. This is really an aside.

It was always my assumption that Erfworld mechanics and cosmology are like Earth, not because of any direct relationship, but because Erfworld is based on wargames which are based on Earth. To put it simply Erfworld's mechanics and cosmology will almost always favor wargame similarities over real world similarities. That said, the units' social interactions seem to favor real world similarities over wargame similarities. The reasons for this, I feel, are obvious -- Nobody cares if you move black pawn7 to L15 to take white bishop2. Jillian finding out that Ansom "switched" sides, however, is good drama.

The SRS BZNZ thread seems to have posited a different view -- That Erfworld is like Earth, across the board, for the sake of being like Earth. There was something about "common sense" too, but in context common sense is such a vague term that it's totally worthless. Wargame common sense is not real world common sense and versa vice.

So, do my fundamental assumptions miss the bus? And are there other alternatives?

[Kreistor]

Tell me: how does combat occur in Erfworld? Do the creatures roll deice to determine results? Or do they swing swords?

Where does the game begin and the physics end? Does metal entering flesh not injure, just because an enemy has a higher bonus? Or does it just sway the odds, and metal still bites flesh, regardless of game rules?

That's the importance of Parson's queries about the brick. Physics, in Erworld, are not supplanted by game mechanics, only directed. Hitting a single man with a brick from a hundred feet up is a low probability... in both worlds. But 1000 men throwing 10000 bricks at 5000 enemies are going to hit something, even without a specific ability to use ranged weapons.

The question of where the similarities begin and end are not as simple as "Erfworld is a game world, so anything I don't wnat of Earth isn't there" is simply not true. The fact is that the author is from Earth, and has only one real world to base his world on. That Erfworld has many Real World effects is no surprise: we don't know of any other real place to model.

Let's look at combat. Combat occurs inside a hex. Now, Stanley doesn't understand "real time" combat, right? Actually, he does. Parson just doens't know how to explain it to him. Real-time is what happens inside a single hex. Stanley wants to know when people plan in a real time system. They plan in the same way Stanley reacted to the events at the choke point trap: you think on your feet, or when the combat is elsewhere. Erfworld is real-time at the hex level and turn-based at the regional level. Earth merely takes that hex and makes it the size of a planet. TO limit movement, you get tired, and Stanley can see Parson getting tired so he'd eventually figure out how that worked.

So where the rules begin and end is not something anyone can say. Our physics does occur in Erfworld, as does magic.Parson looks for rules because he thinks he's in a game, but what if he's not entirely correct? What if the rules are only guidelines, andthe absolutes he is figuring out can be violated through will alone? He has started down that path. he broke the Natural Thinkamancy holding him.

Can he teach others to do the same? When the hex walls are broken, does Erfworld devolve into our own?

[Maldeus]

Erfworld can be expected to act like a war game. Example; Erf World units are incapable of moving through a different hex when it is not their turn. There are two exceptions. Erfworld people will think and feel like Earth people, becuase war game people aren't actually people; they're game pieces. The second exception is for the sake of drama. A literal interpretation of war game combat wouldn't make for a good fight scene. Because of the nature of combat within a single hex, it is possible to do things that would not be possible in a normal war game, like throwing bricks (though that appears to be a bad idea; bricks don't appear to exist because buildings are popped spontaneously, and there's no point in buying that many infantry and giving them bricks when you could've just bought archers instead). This doesn't mean you can break every rule, and the fact that Parson can break Erfworld's rules really means nothing other than that Parson can break Erfworld's rules. Parson is an exception to practically everything.

[Bobby Archer]

Erfworld has at least some blending of real world physics and war game mechanics. Actions like dropping a brick from a tower and it accelerating to terminal velocity and becoming a lethal weapon act as they would on Earth. However, one soldier taking a sword to another does not work like it would on Earth. On Earth, it's a complex physical interaction where the metal of the sword carves a gouge in a weak point of armor, severing veins, puncturing organs, and causing the enemy soldier to bleed out. In Erfworld, the sword gets through the armor because the striking soldier's attack beats the enemy's defense and deals so many hits in damage. The problem for Parson is, on the ground, once you're not bogging yourself down with what rules are working where for what reasons, both actions look pretty much the same. One thinking, feeling person stabs another; someone who had hopes and dreams dies alone on the cold ground. On a mechanical level, one is a lot "cleaner," but in reality, death still sucks.

In any case, it's hard to argue that real world physics work all the time when stats can be seen and the benefits of things like dance-fighting and leadership can be empirically known. Situations where there seem to be no traditional wargaming rules seem to be where Earth physics pick up (like the dropped brick). Just think of games you've played yourself (any kind of tabletop gaming will do): eventually, some player is going to come up with a strategy or action that is covered no where in the rules. How do you adjudicate such a thing? You use the real world as a basis for making a ruling. It seems that Erfworld does the same thing.

The grey area is in the situations where Erfworlders assume that there is some stat-mechanic based explanation, but have no real empirical evidence. Take "Natural Thinkamancy". It relies on stats that no one in Erfworld can see. One can imagine some thinkamancer trying to figure out why units naturally act in some ways - why they follow orders, or act in a Ruler's best interest - without needing thinkamancy spells cast on them. They come up with the theory of hidden natural thinkamancy stats: Obedience, Loyalty, and Duty. In all fairness though, how is this any different from the Id, Ego, and Superego? Or archetypes? They're all theories that use understood qualities and concepts to explain something. A unit acting in a certain manner can be explained through any of these methods with equal utility. It doesn't change how the unit acts, it's just a different way of understanding it.

And there are some "rules" that seem immutable, but that I wonder about. If Stanley had been croaked by the ambush, would Parson have been forced to just sit there and wait for Ansom to come take the city? Or would he have been able to convince others and Gobwin Knob to proactively fight for their lives? Is this a rule, or just something Erfworlders expect to happen?

I think that Parson's special status and his ability to "break rules" has less to do with some kind of superpower that he possesses and more to do with the fact that aware of the rules of Erfworld and knows how to work within them, but he's also seen a world that doesn't use these rules, and that gives him a perspective that no one else has. That causes him to question things that would be unthinkable to others. He's less Superman, and more Galileo.

[atteSmythe]

I try not to make too many assumptions beyond the extremely fundamental - on Erfworld, they breathe Air, understand Language, that sort of thing.

Perhaps paradoxically, though, a lot of what I find fun about the comic does have to do with assumptions: What do the Erfworlders assume, or take for granted, that it will take Parson to point out is false. What does Parson assume falsely (like the eye-mancy table, for a glaring example)? What assumptions have I made, as a reader, that I didn't even realize? Given my window into many characters' actions, I spot a character's assumption?

For the rest, I don't know, it seems pretty academic to me. If someone's speculating based on an assumption, and you disagree, there's not much argument to be had - point out the assumption, they either realized they were making one or didn't, and then you either argue the premise or say "Yeah, that's what I'm assuming, because I think it follows what we've seen" and move on.

An argument over why you're making the assumptions you're making can be interesting, but strikes me as about three steps removed from conversations actually about the comic. :p

[Backdoor Nucleotide]

Tell me: how does combat occur in Erfworld? Do the creatures roll deice to determine results? Or do they swing swords?

This, if nothing else, is a problem of perspective. Simply -- units swing swords and players roll dice. If the story were taking place at a "table" perspective, there'd be dice. Since it's at a "unit" perspective, there aren't. The facts that there are known bonuses to actions and inferred mechanics (like natural thinkamancy) suggests that analysing things at a unit level and ignoring the table level is a highly flawed approach.

... from a meta-perspective, at any rate.

Does metal entering flesh not injure, just because an enemy has a higher bonus?

Hit point loss and injury aren't necessarily the same thing. Can a physically damaged unit still function at full capacity? Can an injured person?

The question of where the similarities begin and end are not as simple as "Erfworld is a game world, so anything I don't wnat of Earth isn't there" is simply not true. The fact is that the author is from Earth, and has only one real world to base his world on. That Erfworld has many Real World effects is no surprise: we don't know of any other real place to model.

Uhm.
Rephrasing my original statement as the point seems to have been missed:
It's not an issue of lolgameworld. Erfworld "physics" are based on wargames. Wargames are based on reality. Erfworld "physics" are not based on reality. To put it another way -- A is like B and B is like C, but A is not C and B is more like A than C is.

Parson is an exception to practically everything.

Quoted for annoying truth.

[...] eventually, some player is going to come up with a strategy or action that is covered no where in the rules. How do you adjudicate such a thing?

I don't know about you, but I usually favor the most dramatic outcome and give the player some XP for making the story more interesting.

... of course, I usually roll 1s on saves when I'm a player, so maybe I'm more used to dramatic disastery than most.

An argument over why you're making the assumptions you're making can be interesting, but strikes me as about three steps removed from conversations actually about the comic. :p

Stop being astute. :/

Though, I didn't even notice that theme of assumption/false assumption going on in the comic. I think you out literatured me.

[Kreistor]

Tell me: how does combat occur in Erfworld? Do the creatures roll deice to determine results? Or do they swing swords?

This, if nothing else, is a problem of perspective. Simply -- units swing swords and players roll dice. If the story were taking place at a "table" perspective, there'd be dice. Since it's at a "unit" perspective, there aren't. The facts that there are known bonuses to actions and inferred mechanics (like natural thinkamancy) suggests that analysing things at a unit level and ignoring the table level is a highly flawed approach.

... from a meta-perspective, at any rate.

So you propose that someone is rolling dice for them? So long as that's ttrue, Parson shouldn't be able to break the world.

Physics are an absolute. They are laws. Game mechanics are laws. I can, in my world, break game rules, but the other players will see that, stand up, and stop playing with me.

Parson wants to be a player in Erfworld, buthe does not have dice. He is inside the system, and supposedly limted by the system... buthe's breaking it. He can swear now. And worse, he can discuss murdering his Ruler. The Summoning Spell should prevent any disloyalty. A spell that forces him to laugh at bad jokes is a compulsion, not a suggestion. That's gone. Parson is free of rules and restraints. He is obviously also free of normal Naturral THinkamancy as well... he discussed hitting Stanley with a brick.

Parson isn't a player, even if free. For the moment, all of his tools are not free, and still restricted where he is not. But Parson is breaking the system, and the players aren't allowed to leave the table without handing the world to him.

Unless they want him to break the game.

Most look at this like Parson is a worm in the machine, Summoned y the occupants to save themselves. But there's another possibility -- the players are sick of the deadlock and caused the occupants to summon him. They created Erfworld to play a game, and expected a winner, but it's deadlocked, and maybe even desgined to prevent a victory. The Titans created the world to eventually complete the game, but it's stuck in a loop of horrible, unending slaughter. They made a mistake and created flawed rules. To end the nightmare they created, they allowed Parson to come, or even ensured he'd come, so that freedom infected Erfworld, the game rules broke to allow an ending, if not a victory, and the nightmare ends.

The Hex walls break down, but a brick still falls.

That's the importance of Parson's recent questions. He can create his own siege engines now, without popping. Gunpowder? If a brick falls, and crap exists, then gunpowder may, too. Pigeon wings work: are they working for the same reason of lower air pressure above than below the wing due to shape? Can Parson create airplanes? Where does Earth physics end, if a brick always falls, a pigeon can fly without magic, and Parson can swear?

Parson doesn't threaten the physics of Erfworld: he threatens those parts that are game mechanics. When Parson gathers the courage to step through that Hex wall at midnight, that's when we know the game rules are truly breaking down.And when he shows a native unit how... the game rules you insist are the basis for this world die. That's when we know there are physics, and game rules, and breaking the latter does not mean the end of the world.

You think this is about Parson winning inside the system as a slave of the system? Parson wants to be a player, and the only way he does that is if he becomes the messiah leading Erfworld out of its nightmare. To be a player, Parson must transcend the system itself. He's already realizing that. He only needs to find the path, and his questions guide him to the knowledge he needs. He's taken three steps down that path. He has broken the Summoing Spell's Natural Thinkamancy and swore. He has destroyed the thing that forced him to play by the rules (the sword). And he has discussed the murder of Stanley, which demonstrates a failure of the normal Natural Thinkamancy to prevent him from considering disloyal, disobedient action.

[SteveMB]

And worse, he can discuss murdering his Ruler. The Summoning Spell should prevent any disloyalty.

Does it? According to Wanda's description, "...if you refuse an order, the spell which summoned you will end your existence entirely." That implies that he isn't physically incapable of contemplating disobedience or actually going through with it, just that the consequences of doing so will be severe.

He is obviously also free of normal Naturral Thinkamancy as well... he discussed hitting Stanley with a brick.

The obedience imposed by normal Natural Thinkamancy apparently isn't absolute and unbreakable. For one thing, Loyalty affects "how likely a unit is to defect or double-deal when possible" (which only makes sense if these things are indeed possible, albeit unlikely under most circumstances). For another, Ansom makes it clear that he believes Stanley to be guilty of "regicide" -- if Natural Thinkamancy were absolute, this would be an outright insane notion, and Vinny doesn't treat it as such (even allowing for the fact that he's softening his skepticism out of friendship and respect).

[Maldeus]

The deadlock theory is valid, which surprises me, but I wouldn't call Parson a messiah. It just seems to...Deified, I suppose. Call him a hero, maybe. Besides, he doesn't have to break the game rules to end the game. He just has to beat every side but one.

[Housellama]

Physics are an absolute. They are laws. Game mechanics are laws. I can, in my world, break game rules, but the other players will see that, stand up, and stop playing with me.

I take exception to this particular statement. You are presenting something as black and white when it is actually shades of gray. Game mechanics are Laws, but they are more like the laws of the land than the laws of physics.

I cannot count the number of times I have done something completely legal within the game rules that absolutely breaks the system, to the point that the GMs made house rules specifically forbidding the loophole or combination I used. That is a form of 'breaking the rules'. Game mechanics ARE rules, but exploiting rules and cheating are two VERY different things. I don't know if this was your intent, but your statement came off as a lot more absolute than the situation actually is.

Parson appears to be PARTICULARLY good with finding exploits, as the siege engine and Uncroaked dance fight battles demonstrated. Parson's primary drawback in Erfworld is that he doesn't KNOW the rules. Most of us rules monkeys actually have sourcebooks where we can look up all the rules. Parson does not. He is having to learn the 'rules of the game' by trial and error.

[raphfrk]

Unless they want him to break the game.

Wanda said that Erfworld itself wished for Parson. That could also mean that the Titans did the wishing. Alternatively, Erfworld could have been created by the Titans to be like an AI based GM (and then left). It is supposed to do all the dice rolls etc. Also, it might make decisions on things like what cities should look like, when popped/upgraded. Thus, it would have made an educated guess on the next step for Stanley's side, and popped the city appropriately.

The Hex walls break down, but a brick still falls.

It looks like hex walls are directly coded into the game physics. I don't think they just exist due to a mass delusion.

Parson doesn't threaten the physics of Erfworld: he threatens those parts that are game mechanics. When Parson gathers the courage to step through that Hex wall at midnight, that's when we know the game rules are truly breaking down.And when he shows a native unit how... the game rules you insist are the basis for this world die. That's when we know there are physics, and game rules, and breaking the latter does not mean the end of the world.

He may be able to step through a hex wall. His "speed" is balanced by fatigue, rather than Move. However, I am not sure that others will be able to follow.

I thought that the end of book 1 might have been everyone freezing due to Stanley being croaked and Parson still being able to move at will (and thus being able to escape while the coalition took a few turns to get setup for the final strike).

He has broken the Summoing Spell's Natural Thinkamancy and swore. He has destroyed the thing that forced him to play by the rules (the sword). And he has discussed the murder of Stanley, which demonstrates a failure of the normal Natural Thinkamancy to prevent him from considering disloyal, disobedient action.

These do indicate that he is breaking free of something.

I think the swearing is the most significant, as he broke what appeared to be a rule that was hard coded into the game world.

If your theory is correct (that he will be able to lead a "night-strike"), he should be able to show people how to bypass the curse filter as a prelude.

[Cmdr I. Heartly Noah]

As far as Erfworld being like Earth, it's a copy of a copy. It's similar in a lot of ways, but there are going to be big differences.

As far as physics vs game mechanics: why make a distinction? When I look at my computer screen, I see colors in patterns that tell me what's going on. That's "real" to me. Meanwhile my computer is running through an endless string of 0s and 1s, that, were I given 50 years, would be complete gibberish to me. Neither is wrong. Both are an accurate depiction of "what's happening." It's just one perspective works for me, and one for the computer.

Are the Erfworlders affecting the RNG, or is the RNG controlling the Erfworlders? Both? Will we ever know? Does it matter?

What we do know is, things happen in Erfworld, with the Verisimillitude of free will, and luck, and "reality." And at the same time, all their actions are controlled by a set of rules and determined by a random number generator that is being modified by various bonuses.

Is Parson able to break the rules because he doesn't have a controlling player, or the RNG isn't working on him?he RNG actually determining his successes and failures? Does it matter?

[Kreistor]

Physics are an absolute. They are laws. Game mechanics are laws. I can, in my world, break game rules, but the other players will see that, stand up, and stop playing with me.

I take exception to this particular statement. You are presenting something as black and white when it is actually shades of gray. Game mechanics are Laws, but they are more like the laws of the land than the laws of physics.

You're right, of course. Game mechanics are not absolutes. There must be a difference between some physics and Game mechanics.

Otherwise, Parson could walk on air, breath water, and essentially become a Titan, or more because he would have no limit. (Erfworld as Matrix.) If a Game Mechanic is as much a law as physical laws, then if Parson can break Game Mechanics, he can break physical laws, too. There must be a difference.

Matrix really is a close analogy. Looking forward to Parson as Ted?

[Darkside007]

Tell me: how does combat occur in Erfworld? Do the creatures roll deice to determine results? Or do they swing swords?

Where does the game begin and the physics end? Does metal entering flesh not injure, just because an enemy has a higher bonus? Or does it just sway the odds, and metal still bites flesh, regardless of game rules?

That's the importance of Parson's queries about the brick. Physics, in Erworld, are not supplanted by game mechanics, only directed. Hitting a single man with a brick from a hundred feet up is a low probability... in both worlds. But 1000 men throwing 10000 bricks at 5000 enemies are going to hit something, even without a specific ability to use ranged weapons.

And if it was physics Parson wouldn't've been able to calculate the odds with his bracer. Everything in Erfworld has HP, so why wouldn't they all have a base accuracy stat that's buffed by the Archery ability?

The question of where the similarities begin and end are not as simple as "Erfworld is a game world, so anything I don't wnat of Earth isn't there" is simply not true. The fact is that the author is from Earth, and has only one real world to base his world on. That Erfworld has many Real World effects is no surprise: we don't know of any other real place to model.

Your error is the assumption that Erfworld = Earth. You continue in this error because you wish to remain uncorrected. That real-world people do not have unit stats doesn't concern you, unit stats, in your view, don't really matter.

Anyone who did what Ansom did when he stormed the walls alone would've been knocked down and torn to shreds in the Real World. He curbstomped all the units on the wall. Ergo, swinging a sword and cutting flesh does entirely depend on unit stats.

Let's look at combat. Combat occurs inside a hex. Now, Stanley doesn't understand "real time" combat, right? Actually, he does. Parson just doens't know how to explain it to him. Real-time is what happens inside a single hex. Stanley wants to know when people plan in a real time system. They plan in the same way Stanley reacted to the events at the choke point trap: you think on your feet, or when the combat is elsewhere. Erfworld is real-time at the hex level and turn-based at the regional level. Earth merely takes that hex and makes it the size of a planet. TO limit movement, you get tired, and Stanley can see Parson getting tired so he'd eventually figure out how that worked.

But Erfworlders do not get tired, and real-time strategy is substantially different from real-time tactics. Production of units, planning of general strategy, etc. are all substantially different. What's more, in real-time strategy, counter-moves are readily available in a way they aren't in turn-based strategy. See: the wounded dragon hex.

So where the rules begin and end is not something anyone can say. Our physics does occur in Erfworld,

A key assumption with no evidence and a great deal of contradiction. But that's your first impression so it must be correct.

as does magic. Parson looks for rules because he thinks he's in a game, but what if he's not entirely correct? What if the rules are only guidelines, and the absolutes he is figuring out can be violated through will alone? He has started down that path. he broke the Natural Thinkamancy holding him.

What if his 'special' attribute is the simple fact that he is largely governed by RL mechanics, and not Erfworld ones? What if he can travel at night, and off-turn, and whatnot?

Can he teach others to do the same? When the hex walls are broken, does Erfworld devolve into our own?

You really really really want Erf to be Earth, and that's really all your come down to.

[trevron]

This doesn't mean you can break every rule, and the fact that Parson can break Erfworld's rules really means nothing other than that Parson can break Erfworld's rules. Parson is an exception to practically everything.

I don't think the units/people of Erfworld think like Parson. I don't think Parson is the only one capable or 'breaking' the rules, I think Erfworld is so steeped in traditional warfare/the rules that the people/units don't see the tactical advantage (I guess) in breaking them, as Parson, or anyone else from our world, would.
When Parson asked Sizemore and Maggie about the bricks, Maggie was shocked, and Sizemore floundered a bit, but was readily able to come up with an answer, and Parson's Arm Thingy was able to calculate the odds right away, simple even, according to the text.

However, I don't think this makes every rule breakable. Someone up there said that Parson is learning the Rules by trial and error. I don't think units popped in Erfworld have that luxury. The Rules are part of who they are, and a part of what Erfworld is. But, I think things like the improvisation of mundane items are simply outside of the scope of the Erfworld unit zeitgeist.

[Maldeus]

Parson asked about the brick, which was something which there were no rules for. There is no rule saying "units can't throw bricks." There's no rules governing it at all. And they were probably just shocked because they thought Parson was contemplating croaking his own Ruler, when he was actually just looking for exploits that would work against any unit.

[Kreistor]

And if it was physics Parson wouldn't've been able to calculate the odds with his bracer. Everything in Erfworld has HP, so why wouldn't they all have a base accuracy stat that's buffed by the Archery ability?

Last I checked, Physics is based on Calculus, and that's mathematical. Any equation breaks down to a probability. So why can't Physics result in the calculation of odds? (Edit: Quantum Mechanics are Physics based on probabilities. It's all about the odds.)

Your error is the assumption that Erfworld = Earth.

I never said that. I said that it has game rules and physics rules, both. Gravity is physics. Hex walls are game. It has both. It's a mistake to think that it has one or the other.

Anyone who did what Ansom did when he stormed the walls alone would've been knocked down and torn to shreds in the Real World. He curbstomped all the units on the wall. Ergo, swinging a sword and cutting flesh does entirely depend on unit stats.

Or are unit stats merely a numerical approximation of his ability, instead of the other way around?

But Erfworlders do not get tired, and real-time strategy is substantially different from real-time tactics. Production of units, planning of general strategy, etc. are all substantially different. What's more, in real-time strategy, counter-moves are readily available in a way they aren't in turn-based strategy. See: the wounded dragon hex.

Look, you're belaboring a mistaken interpretation of what I said, and so it all comes down to this: I never once said that Erfworld does not have game mechanics. I said it didn't have only game mechanics. All the rest of what you wrote is based on that one mistake, so I'm not bothering with it.

[Kreistor]

I don't think the units/people of Erfworld think like Parson. I don't think Parson is the only one capable or 'breaking' the rules, I think Erfworld is so steeped in traditional warfare/the rules that the people/units don't see the tactical advantage (I guess) in breaking them, as Parson, or anyone else from our world, would.

Good. And now, "Why?" As in, "Why" don't Erfworlders think outside teh box of tradition?

Simple. Because they born without a need to ever learn anything.

They are born with a knowledge of the world that allows them to participate as a mature adult. They learn by killing enemies (or they think they do... experience is not a known rule, only suspected). They get better by levelling, not spending time in libraries. The only exceptions are Casters, and those are rare. What happens when a unit is advanced from Infantry to Warlord? Someone spends money and bang, you are now a Warlord.

If you think you know everything, you never ask the question "What could I invent?" It's all been invented, because you all know everything. They don't learn because they are ignorant that they can.

[Bobby Archer]

They get better by levelling, not spending time in libraries. The only exceptions are Casters, and those are rare.

Even for Casters, actual study and interest in learning for its own sake seems to be something of a rarity. Thus far, Sizemore's the only caster who's expressed any interest in learning as a pursuit.

Also, the libraries in Erfworld aren't built (or spontaneously popped) to facilitate learning. They contain mostly battle histories[:] names and turn numbers and crests and even something like high scores. No philosophy or science or theory. Just flat declamations of past events.

[Kreistor]

Good point. There's nothing there to inspire people to think. Only remember.