Hex Capacity Limit

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Hex Capacity Limit

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:03 pm

I've recently be cruising around the wiki sprucing up some articles, fixing broken links and such, and I've come across a few mentions of a hypothetical "limit" the the number of units/stacks allowed to occupy a given hex, and I'm wondering what all you lovely folks think of that.

Given the revelation that time is relative in erfworld, and also given the fact that a seemingly limitless number of units can occupy a city (which sits within a single hex), I'm inclined to think that the space within a hex is similarly relative. In other words, a hex will (in a manner similar to a TARDIS) be as large inside it's borders as it needs to be in order to accommodate the number of units within it.

Can anyone think of specific references to support/refute this? Or just have general thoughts on the subject?
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby Sixty » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:40 am

Ansom's strike force stretched out for 5 or so hexs I believe. I don't think they were leaving units behind or anything and if a hex could "expand" to hold more units why not just keep them in one hex to reduce the chances of an enemy scout finding them? They were presumably moving as far as the unit with the least move could move or else they'd slowly lose them.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby Selexor » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:10 am

Possibly to avoid being attacked. The RCC knew that Gobwin Knob had a very high-level Dirtamancer, amongst other casters... plus a large force of Dwagons, of course. Put the entire RCC army in one hex, and send in Sizemore with a stack of Dwagons... he could do some terrible damage to their forces. Dirtamancy seems to be able to hit very large areas with single spells, from what we've seen. If all the RCC forces were capable of hitting Gobwin Knob on the same turn, spreading them out over multiple hexes reduces the chances of a counterattack.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:03 pm

I also believe it had to do with movement, I'll have to read over those pages again when I have more time, but I do recall Parson and Ansom both talking about how units with different moves were located in different hexes, most notably the fliers.

Also, I find it REALLY humorous that the night before a new update was posted, I compared a hex to a TARDIS, and in that update a caster resembling the Doctor is shown in a tapestry haha. Maybe I do have a little Predictamancy power after all LOL.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby the_tick_rules » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:14 am

there have been refrences to maximum stacks in terms of size/number of units. I can't remember if it has been outight stated that there is a maximum of stacks per hex or not. If there is it has never been put into rules form. If it ever would need to be anyway. If not there is apparently a practical or strategic limit as said above or we'd probably have seen one uber hex by now. There probably is, a hex is a finite amount of space, it'd have to run out eventually.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby drachefly » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:00 pm

I thought the stand at expository bridge was a maximally filled hex.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby Sojiko » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:05 am

If there are hex-wide area of effect attacks, it makes sense to spread one's army.
Even if the coalition army kept pace to reach GK, they could have started breaking formation on the last turns to have their fastest units there a turn sooner(although this would be very unlikely to produce a line of 5 hexes).
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby Swodaems » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:35 pm

There is another reason to seperate out a force into multiple hexes: Protecting valuable units.

Think about what would have happened during book 1's targeted anti-seige strike had Parson decided to fight thru Ansom's archery to get at the seige instead of merely flying over them. The dwagons would have been arriving at the seige far more wounded than they were or possibly not arrived at all. (I'm assuming the archery is placed in a different hex here.)

There are also economic, logistical, and political concerns that could have come into play to create the column formation we saw in book 1.

Every turn a field force spends in the field instead of at a managed city is a turn in which it is paying full upkeep. That may causes a reason for the force's commanders to prefer a plan that could potentially get the job done as soon as possible, even if the plan means that

The column consisted of a force that was pieced together out of several smaller ones that arrived over time. If those forces consisted of units with differing move, then the column formation could be a result of the fastest units wanting to arrive at Ansom's location ASAP so that he wouldn't have reason to break alliance with them. Remember, he did break off alliance with the tardy elves.

Those individual forces may have had internal issues between them, causing them to be seperated for the sake of peaceful relations.

The commanders in charge of each individual force may have been doing their best to position their units in as safe a place as possible. Or in a position they felt would when them more glory.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby drachefly » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:19 pm

Foraging is a known mechanic. Spreading out can also help maximize foraging potential.

I'm reminded of the defeat of the French army in 1812 - they lost all control over their supply lines due to the Russian partisans, and the Russians had used scorched earth to deprive them of easy forage, so they had to spread thin, which just made the partisans' jobs easier.

Had the Russians not pursued scorched earth on their own land, the Russians could have spread out a moderate amount (several hexes worth, shifted to Erf) and fared far better.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby cloudbreaker » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:20 pm

The answer may be as simple as comfort. It might be that the more people you pack into a hex, the less space there is to spread out. It would be like cramming ten people into a minivan. Sure, you can do it easily enough and you'll save on gas, but many people would rather just take two vehicles.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby SteveMB » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:04 pm

Selexor wrote:Possibly to avoid being attacked. The RCC knew that Gobwin Knob had a very high-level Dirtamancer, amongst other casters... plus a large force of Dwagons, of course. Put the entire RCC army in one hex, and send in Sizemore with a stack of Dwagons... he could do some terrible damage to their forces. Dirtamancy seems to be able to hit very large areas with single spells, from what we've seen. If all the RCC forces were capable of hitting Gobwin Knob on the same turn, spreading them out over multiple hexes reduces the chances of a counterattack.


Recall that when the first reports of the uncroaked volcano exploit reached the survivors of the Coalition, they greeted Caesar's description of "...some kinda single Dirtamancy trap. Across multiple hexes." with utter incredulity -- apparently their popped-in knowledge and/or their experience says that such a thing is impossible. Conversely, there may be known Dirtamancy traps (and other things, perhaps) that affect all units in a single hex. If so, that's a good reason to spread out a bit.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby Lamech » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:18 pm

SteveMB wrote:Recall that when the first reports of the uncroaked volcano exploit reached the survivors of the Coalition, they greeted Caesar's description of "...some kinda single Dirtamancy trap. Across multiple hexes." with utter incredulity -- apparently their popped-in knowledge and/or their experience says that such a thing is impossible. Conversely, there may be known Dirtamancy traps (and other things, perhaps) that affect all units in a single hex. If so, that's a good reason to spread out a bit.

Also, you want to be able to stay well away from the edges of the hex. When your off-turn and the enemy is on turn, they can plop their archers, dwagons or whatever and start firing into the hex, and you can't do a thing about it. I wonder how big a ballistic engine you would need to throw something across half a hex?
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby Selexor » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:35 am

'Zacktly. Caesar wasn't astonished by the fact that it was a Dirtamancy trap... it was that it was so insanely powerful, and able to hit more than one hex at once. Trapping a single hex, or bombarding it with Dirtamancy, seems to be relatively straightforward. The traps may work better in enclosed spaces, but Sizemore proved during the seige that normal Dirtamancy can damage multiple units at once. Area-Of-Effect Damage is a given, it's just expanding the area... and it seems all that takes is time or juice. Given a high-level Dirtamancer with enough creativity, and who knows what other support from Gobwin Knob's (then) four other Casters, and that's a force you don't want to get anywhere near.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby drachefly » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:41 am

That's a good point about archery. If archery can reach, say, 40% of the way across a hex, then the safe spot in the middle is tiny, big enough for only a few units. If you occupy multiple hexes, you can huddle in the much larger middle. In that case, each time they sortie in to reach you, you can charge and either engage or force them back over the border, costing them a net 2 move.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby 0beron » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:00 pm

I like the archery logic. Of course we have no way to know, but It's a plausible reason that fits with cannon thus far.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby Selexor » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:59 pm

Well, it also brings up another question - are all hexes the same size? Some contain at least a certain amount of "unusable" terrain for certain unit types, like water or lava or perhaps even broken ground, depending on what the Unit is capable of. That's going to have an impact on where units can stand to dodge archery, or more simply, how many units you can fit in a small or large hex.
But of course that's just my opinion.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby 0beron » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:21 am

Well if there is any size difference, its like I suggested, in the manner of a TARDIS. The borders of a hex will always be the same dimensions, but the space inside may be bigger than those borders, if that makes sense. If hexes were physically different sizes, the map wouldn't fit together haha.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby 0beron » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:22 am

Oh and also I think that only city hexes have the potential for different zones. For example, you wouldn't have a lava lake "zone" on a volcano if GK wasn't built there, the WHOLE thing would likely be lava lake.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby Swodaems » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:26 am

0beron wrote:Oh and also I think that only city hexes have the potential for different zones. For example, you wouldn't have a lava lake "zone" on a volcano if GK wasn't built there, the WHOLE thing would likely be lava lake.


That logic doesn't fit with the Expository Bridge.

Ansom and his brothers meet in the center of it, indicating where the Hex barrier lies. we can grasp some idea of the minimum size of the hex, by looking at the layout of the Jetstone army. The bridge clearly does not have the width to it to make up the entire side of a hex. The hex has a part of it that is land, a part of it that is water, and maybe a part of it that has half a bridge over it. Depending on the rules these may all qualify as different terrain types and all are present within a single non-city hex.
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Re: Hex Capacity Limit

Postby 0beron » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:30 am

Swodaems wrote:
0beron wrote:Oh and also I think that only city hexes have the potential for different zones. For example, you wouldn't have a lava lake "zone" on a volcano if GK wasn't built there, the WHOLE thing would likely be lava lake.


That logic doesn't fit with the Expository Bridge.

Ansom and his brothers meet in the center of it, indicating where the Hex barrier lies. we can grasp some idea of the minimum size of the hex, by looking at the layout of the Jetstone army. The bridge clearly does not have the width to it to make up the entire side of a hex. The hex has a part of it that is land, a part of it that is water, and maybe a part of it that has half a bridge over it. Depending on the rules these may all qualify as different terrain types and all are present within a single non-city hex.

Excellent point actually, thanks for that. It might be possible then that the sub-terrain types such as road and river influence hex composition.
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