When a warlord becomes ruler

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When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:57 am

What happens stat- & bonuswise when a warlord becomes ruler? Does he lose the ability to give bonus to troops under his command and only counts as a commander? Or does he still give bonus and additionally gives bonus to all the troops in his hex, like a chief warlord? Would such a bonus add up with the bonus of the chief warlord?

I wondered since the battle in the choke point. Ceasar attacked Stanley with a stack of bats as nearly as strong as heavies. But Stanley already had heavies; shouldn't his warlord bonus made his stack much stronger than Ceasar's, especially with a bonus from an artefact? Also Parson never mentioned a bonus from having the overlord in a stack or hex. Therefore I deduce that a ruler loses all his battle usefulness (except for his status as commander). But I don't like the idea. I always considered the chief warlord as some kind of ersatz for the ruler and thought that he has the same abilities as the ruler.

If the ruler gives bonus, Gobwin Knob could use Transylvito style times two: A army of dwagon-riding Kiss-hobgobwins and archons, lead by a level 10 chief warlord and a level 6-9 overlord + artifact, initiating dance fight. Smaller forces could be blown away without any own losses. That way Gobwin Knob could capture 3 or 4 smaller cities within one turn.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby SteveMB » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:55 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Caesar attacked Stanley with a stack of bats as nearly as strong as heavies. But Stanley already had heavies; shouldn't his warlord bonus made his stack much stronger than Ceasar's, especially with a bonus from an artefact?

Er, what makes you think it wasn't? Stanley kicked Caesar's butt, remember, and might have been able to croak him if not for the fact that he stayed focused on the goal of punching through. Perhaps the only reason Caesar had any real expectation of success is that he was going all-out against one target (Stanley), engaging the rest of his stack as little as he could manage*.

*We don't fully know what determines what Caesar could and could not do in that regard. We have a general concept that some units can be used to screen others from attack (going back to "buy me some time so I can solo the blue"), but not much in the way of detail as to how it works and how it can be overcome (other than the obvious "defeat all the screening units").
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby Anton Gaist » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:21 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:If the ruler gives bonus, Gobwin Knob could use Transylvito style times two: A army of dwagon-riding Kiss-hobgobwins and archons, lead by a level 10 chief warlord and a level 6-9 overlord + artifact, initiating dance fight. Smaller forces could be blown away without any own losses. That way Gobwin Knob could capture 3 or 4 smaller cities within one turn.


I think you have the right idea here, except for 2 bits. One, I wouldn't risk an Overlord, Stanley in this case, in a frontal assault. Since he has no heir, one lucky shot and Key Lime Pie, the whole GK side is gone.

Second, what do you mean with "capture 3 or 4 smaller cities within one turn"? Even if the assault was overwhelming, they would still need to travel from city to city.

But other than that, aye, I think an Overlord with an artifact bonus leading Knights riding heavy units dance fighting would be a force to be reckoned with.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby DevilDan » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:56 pm

Anton Gaist wrote:But other than that, aye, I think an Overlord with an artifact bonus leading Knights riding heavy units dance fighting would be a force to be reckoned with.

That seems an accurate assessment, but would it be enough to take even a moderately-sized city or face a numerous host?
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:40 pm

Anton Gaist wrote:I think you have the right idea here, except for 2 bits. One, I wouldn't risk an Overlord, Stanley in this case, in a frontal assault. Since he has no heir, one lucky shot and Key Lime Pie, the whole GK side is gone.

Second, what do you mean with "capture 3 or 4 smaller cities within one turn"? Even if the assault was overwhelming, they would still need to travel from city to city.

But other than that, aye, I think an Overlord with an artifact bonus leading Knights riding heavy units dance fighting would be a force to be reckoned with.


Dwagons have 50+ move, depending on the distance between the cities he could try a nice little killing spree. With the newly sane foolamancer he can wait in a forest two or three hexes away from a city. The next turn he flies to the city and captures it. The fast archons buzz seem to have really high initiative and can attack archers first. Stanley and Ansom can take out all flying units. If there are any units left that have a range attack, Stanley stays veiled. The remaining ground units are no match for the dwagons and KISS solders, as soon as the warlords are croaked. If the first city is captured, Wanda can walk the two hexes and decrypt the dead units. She then can take the most wounded dwagon and follow Stanley's force. Depending on the average distance between he can take that way 2 (if 20 hexes) to 4 cities (if 12 hexes).
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby DevilDan » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:48 pm

Dwagons are not invulnerable. Jillian and the TV warlords thought it possible that she'd managed to slay Stanley's mount in the battle of the pass. While she is level 9, she was still just one warlord with a few gwiffons. Attacking a city would mean facing attacks from archers, flying units, casters, and perhaps even "air defenses" of the sort used by Wanda against Jillian's forces over GK, as well as any defensive bonuses that apply. Assuming what you describe is really feasible, all you're left with is a city that you lack the troops to defend.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:35 pm

DevilDan wrote:Dwagons are not invulnerable. Jillian and the TV warlords thought it possible that she'd managed to slay Stanley's mount in the battle of the pass. While she is level 9, she was still just one warlord with a few gwiffons. Attacking a city would mean facing attacks from archers, flying units, casters, and perhaps even "air defenses" of the sort used by Wanda against Jillian's forces over GK, as well as any defensive bonuses that apply. Assuming what you describe is really feasible, all you're left with is a city that you lack the troops to defend.


The idea is to attack only very small cities of level 1 or 2. Those should lake casters and hopefully air defences. And the cities would be manned by the old units, decrypted by Wanda. And I don't know how much a problem archers would be. If Stanley flies high enough, he probably wouldn't even be hit. Flyers can't see him, if he is veiled. Jillian was a level 9 warlord that had tons of experience with air battle; gwiffons are also strong units. And we haven't seen a real battle between, just a simulation. Until we see the real thing, we can only guess that it was a realistic one.
And if the plan works, Stanley got some cities within one turn. Than he can order some dwagons and has 4 turns later 2-4 more of them at his disposal.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby DevilDan » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:33 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:The idea is to attack only very small cities of level 1 or 2. Those should lake casters and hopefully air defences. And the cities would be manned by the old units, decrypted by Wanda. And I don't know how much a problem archers would be. If Stanley flies high enough, he probably wouldn't even be hit. Flyers can't see him, if he is veiled. Jillian was a level 9 warlord that had tons of experience with air battle; gwiffons are also strong units. And we haven't seen a real battle between, just a simulation. Until we see the real thing, we can only guess that it was a realistic one.
And if the plan works, Stanley got some cities within one turn. Than he can order some dwagons and has 4 turns later 2-4 more of them at his disposal.


As I said, the results were within what was believable... and Jill and Vinny have fought dwagons before and thus have some experience in the matter: I'm going to trust their knowledge here.

Archers would still whittle down the dwagons.

Wait, you're suggesting that any GK city can pop dwagons? That seems like an unfounded assumption. And the smaller the city the longer it would take to pop the dwagon, presumably.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby moose o death » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:03 am

i'm willing to guess that only the city hosting the tool can spawn it's units. they are tamed by the arkenhammer.

technically GK was still stanley's only city and the dwagon was already being constructed if you come back with that.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:19 am

I remember some post of Rob mentioning, that different cities produce different types of units. He explicitly mentions, that Faq could produce gwiffons, while GK couldn't; with dwagons it was the opposite. I wish I could remember where I found that.
But from that statement (if I recall it correctly) I conclude that more than one city can produce dwagons, and that cities founded by units from GK can also produce dwagons.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby DevilDan » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:21 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:I remember some post of Rob mentioning, that different cities produce different types of units. He explicitly mentions, that Faq could produce gwiffons, while GK couldn't; with dwagons it was the opposite. I wish I could remember where I found that.
But from that statement (if I recall it correctly) I conclude that more than one city can produce dwagons, and that cities founded by units from GK can also produce dwagons.


You're certainly free to jump, leap, lunge, and hop to conclusions.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:18 pm

DevilDan wrote:You're certainly free to jump, leap, lunge, and hop to conclusions.


The colonel made you say that.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby DevilDan » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:27 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:The colonel made you say that.


I was going to have to react somehow to that particular line of thought.

The statement you referred to, by the way, is this:

Word of the Titans wrote:We'll get this and other details codified and canon-ized in the wiki. Short answer: Cities have a limited menu of unit types they can produce. Gobwin Knob can pop most dwagon types, but couldn't produce, say, a gwiffon.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Word_of_the_Titans#6051503
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:19 pm

DevilDan wrote:I was going to have to react somehow to that particular line of thought.


Okay, next time I take 20 when making a craft (lame pun) check ;)

Thanks for the link; I was there but completely skipped it. However, it doesn't settle the case.
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Re: When a warlord becomes ruler

Postby Anton Gaist » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:17 am

Again, is it possible? Maybe.

Would it be worth it to risk The Warlord (and by extension the whole side) by putting him in the front line to take a level 1 or 2 city? I don't think so.

I think Warlords are very much like their chess counterparts. Resourceful and useful, but you don't want to risk them just to capture a pawn. It could mean game over for you.
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