And Now I Shall Spoil Everything

[DevilDan]

Fate determined that Wand would attune to an arkentool.

Fate magic was then involved in putting Parson in a position to see that happen.

From a deterministic perspective, things went to plan.

[Dwagon_Cwoaker]

As to your reference, Sergei, I agree that it would appear that Erfworld chose Parson, but think about it. Why would it choose Parson? Because he matched the haphazard chaotic criteria that Stanley threw out? I would sure hope not, or else, there is something fundamentally flawed about this universe. Remember, not 3 strips earlier, it was explicitly stated that the spell itself was absolutely jam-packed full of fate magic.

I don't understand this objection. Yes, I do believe that Parson was summoned because he fit the convoluted criteria of the summon. I don't see how this contradicts the summon being big fate-magic. (And Erf magic, too, actually. The summon was a combination of findamancy and predictamancy.) On page 5, it's established that it takes very powerful magic to search all of existence.

What I'm objecting to is that it was Stanley's doing that drew Parson into the world. Going from the same determinist perspective that Dan mentioned, and how Fate appears to work in this world (any precautions you take to further or hamper Fate tend to only work out in Fate's favor, i.e. Faq's king popping an heir because of the prophecy that his kingdom would fall, Wanda accidentally causing the fall of Faq by trying to advance her own destiny and gain an Arkentool, etc.), I would say that Fate drew Parson into this world because it was Fate's plan to, not because he fit the criteria Stanley laid out. And then, you have to consider that Wanda, as we now know, has ZERO loyalty to Stanley. She could have just ignored everything he was saying. With her outright devotion to Fate magic, I would have to say that she was knowingly following Fate's bidding in finding Parson, not Stanleys. Parson probably had a big arrow pointing right at him saying "Pick this guy!"

Basically, I'm objecting to Stanely having any part in the drawing of Parson to the world, I believe it was all Fate's doing (and yes, at this point, I am treating Fate like its own entity. Fate is a very fickle woman, after all.) And now, the issue becomes, is Fate's plan to bring one of Erfworld's Titans into the world through/as Parson, to bring about a new Titanic order? Or is it to break the world so horribly that Hippiemancers will do a happydance as peace spreads throughout the land? Or is Parson going to stand by his vow to be a player, and not a chesspiece?

Lets face it guys, within the confimes of a game, us players are really rather godlike. We know the cheatcodes to remove the fog of war, we toss away the lives of hundreds of digital/plastic soldiers without a single twitch, we have absolute authority within our game... if Parson assumes the role of a player, wouldn't being a player be the same as being a god, and since noone seems to want to seperate the term 'god' and 'titan', wouldn't that make Parson a Titan anyways?

[MarbitChow]

Lets face it guys, within the confimes of a game, us players are really rather godlike. We know the cheatcodes to remove the fog of war, we toss away the lives of hundreds of digital/plastic soldiers without a single twitch, we have absolute authority within our game... if Parson assumes the role of a player, wouldn't being a player be the same as being a god, and since noone seems to want to seperate the term 'god' and 'titan', wouldn't that make Parson a Titan anyways?

No, it would not. Titan means 'Creator of Erfworld'. (For a video game, this would be the programming / design team.)
A Player is one who plays the game. (In Erfworld, these are currently the Overlords.)

The players are bound by the rules that the creators established.
If there are no cheat codes, players cannot become gods.
Generals throw away the lives of thousands of men (see WWI); this does not make them gods - it just defines them as callous boopholes.

No one argues that Parson is exceptional. He clearly isn't bound by the same rules as other 'units' in Erfworld. This is well-established.
But there is no indication that Parson has ANY Titan-level powers.
Sizemore + Maggie + Wanda have performed actions that had more of direct impact on Erfworld than Parson did.

Parson's "power" is his mind - he see connections that others do not see; he reaches conclusions that others cannot fathom.
He cannot change the landscape with a wave of his hand, or kill an army with a thought.
But, with a single order, he enabled others to do so. That's what makes him unique.

It's like giving Brad Pitt the ability to control women with his mind: he doesn't need it. He's already got looks, fame, and money.
Giving Parson any additional 'cool abilities' (which making him a Titan implies) is overkill.

[Dwagon_Cwoaker]

Lets face it guys, within the confimes of a game, us players are really rather godlike. We know the cheatcodes to remove the fog of war, we toss away the lives of hundreds of digital/plastic soldiers without a single twitch, we have absolute authority within our game... if Parson assumes the role of a player, wouldn't being a player be the same as being a god, and since noone seems to want to seperate the term 'god' and 'titan', wouldn't that make Parson a Titan anyways?

No, it would not. Titan means 'Creator of Erfworld'. (For a video game, this would be the programming / design team.)
A Player is one who plays the game. (In Erfworld, these are currently the Overlords.)

But in tabletop games, oftentimes, the players and the creators of the game are one in the same. It would be a crappy game that the creators of it didn't want to play themselves. Parson was the paragon of the player/creator mix.

Sizemore + Maggie + Wanda have performed actions that had more of direct impact on Erfworld than Parson did.

Parson's "power" is his mind - he see connections that others do not see; he reaches conclusions that others cannot fathom.
He cannot change the landscape with a wave of his hand, or kill an army with a thought.
But, with a single order, he enabled others to do so. That's what makes him unique.

It's like giving Brad Pitt the ability to control women with his mind: he doesn't need it. He's already got looks, fame, and money.
Giving Parson any additional 'cool abilities' (which making him a Titan implies) is overkill.

My entire arguement here isn't that Parson is some god-like being and doesn't realize it yet. I'm saying that the titans ARENT gods, they're gamers. I'm telling you, if you seperate the concept of the force that created Erfworld and who came up with the idea for it in the first place, gamers like Parson being Titans makes perfect sense. Because, once again, I just can't accept the notion that Erfworld being a reality where life is a turn based strategy game is just a coincidence. It is an amalgamation of the concepts and idea of hundreds of gamers made manifest by an as-yet-unrevealed force, and as the Erfworlders don't know any better, their creation myths mislabeled the gamers as gods and life has gone on from there up until this point, where one of these gamers has become inserted into their world.

So, let me reiterate, no, i don't believe Parson is a god, nor do i believe he have any god-like powers. I DO believe that the Erfworlders are mistaken as to what the Titans are, that gamers are the Titans, and that whatever force actually did create Erfworld cribbed off of Game Masters' campaign notes.

[sergeial]

What I'm objecting to is that it was Stanley's doing that drew Parson into the world. Going from the same determinist perspective that Dan mentioned, and how Fate appears to work in this world (any precautions you take to further or hamper Fate tend to only work out in Fate's favor, i.e. Faq's king popping an heir because of the prophecy that his kingdom would fall, Wanda accidentally causing the fall of Faq by trying to advance her own destiny and gain an Arkentool, etc.), I would say that Fate drew Parson into this world because it was Fate's plan to, not because he fit the criteria Stanley laid out.

I think you're contradicting yourself. As you say, it doesn't matter if you are trying to further or hamper fate, things still work out in Fate's favor. So Fate is quite capable of finding someone who fit the terms of the summon freely chosen by Stanley AND at the same time finding someone who fits Fate's plans.

And then, you have to consider that Wanda, as we now know, has ZERO loyalty to Stanley. She could have just ignored everything he was saying. With her outright devotion to Fate magic, I would have to say that she was knowingly following Fate's bidding in finding Parson, not Stanleys. Parson probably had a big arrow pointing right at him saying "Pick this guy!"

Sure, Wanda puts her allegiance to Fate ahead of her allegiance to Stanley--she would have ignored Stanley's orders if she had needed to to help out Fate. But it's established that Parson does fit the letter of Stanley's requests--Parson does indeed eat marbits for breakfast. But he doesn't fit the spirit of them, and why not? Is it because the scroll was only capable of meeting the letter of the request? Or because Parson better suits Fates plans than a guy who fit the spirit of what Stanley wanted? Well, why can't it be both? But that still doesn't require that Wanda intentionally ignored what Stanley wanted because she knew Fate wanted something different.

But even though I don't think that Wanda did that, even if she did, how does that make Parson a Titan? Sure, it could be that Fate chose him because he's a Titan. But isn't it sufficient that he happens to be the perfect Warlord? Does he need to be a Titan to be the perfect Warlord? I don't think so.

[sergeial]

Oh, and regarding the idea that Parsons is a Titan, because the Titans are game-creators like Parsons? And this explains why the universal laws in Erfworld are so much like strategy game rules that Parsons is familiar with? Sure, that's one explanation. But if there's an infinite number of universes with an infinite variety of natural laws, there's no reason the summon spell couldn't have found a world where the game rules are analogous to Erfworlds natural laws. This fits what we know as well, and I think a it fits a little better. We have evidence that the causation works in that direction, and only speculation that it works in the other direction. And circular causation is unnecessarily complex.

[Dwagon_Cwoaker]

I get where you're coming from, sergeial, but i'm just too goddamned stubborn to think that there wasn't a preexisting connection between Parson and Erfworld to begin with, before Wanda and her scroll of plot device drew Parson into Erfworld. My statement about Fate magic and Stanley was a little premature and unclear, yeah. But as I'm working this out in my head, and as i'm Machiavellan at heart and treat Fortune/Fate as its own independent entity, I can't shake the thought of a divine entity that created Erfworld using the work of gamers, and is actively pursuing an unknown agenda that people refer to as the Titans will.

'Course, now that I'm writing this down and looking at it, and going back through my past arguements, then I can see that it is equally possible that the Titans are not gamers, and instead this divine force is what the Erfworlders refer to as Titans, but I stand by my assertion that the base elements of Erfworld were taken from the minds of gamers. And with that in mind, Parson holds an almost unmatched advantage in that he will be able to detach himself from the workings of the world and view it as just another game, as he has done repeatedly, while the rest of Erfworld look upon the turns and such as just the way the world works, and are mentally incapable of thinking of concepts beyond where the next turns upkeep is coming from. that in and of itself acts as an almost godlike advantage, really.

[KiltedNinja]

Hey folks...

I just thought I'd randomly jump in with a couple of points that may or may not have been made.. (It's very late and I've just travelled around 800 miles - brain switchy-offy-type-mode...)

First, It's blatant that this isn't a dream or simulation - given by the fact that when Parson is summoned, his gaming chums witness the disappearance - With comments "This is the first idea I've seen him follow through on" (words to that effect) and "Dibs on his dice".

Second, Parson notes Erfworld has elements of a game he was working on (for 5 months) plus bits of others.. So here's my theory - Parson hasn't necessarily influenced Erfworld's design ; *ALL* possible worlds exist, all the time, at the same time - every possible fluctuation and variation that could exist, *does* exist - So - Parson's mind / energy / existential quantum vibration signature (I made that up) resonates at a certain frequency, and Erfworld's "energy" resonates at a similar frequency.. Drawing them both together in a magnetic sort-of-fashion.

Plus ; There are four other gamers involved in the story, 3 dudes (One of whom was with Parson in the "game room" before the other gamers arrived - he's got glasses and a funky Watchmen-esque skullcap) - and one chick - Ashna. Perhaps, as they are all like-minded, their "energy" resonations (or whatever) are part of the Erfworld Equation. Also, one of the male gamers has a black baseball cap on it, with a "power" logo on it.. the same logo next to the forum login... co-incidence? hmmzz.. (plus, in my current state of mind, i'd be inclined to postulate that this particular gamer has visual similarities with Bogroll...)

Also ; Just as a random note, Ashna is the only other gamer to be named, and, she's randomly standing up. So; Female figure, named, standing out (..well, up). I think that's relevant in some way... Perhaps because of Wanda and Jillian - both being strong female characters with incredible importance to the story.

...I'm sure I had a point somewhere.. Mebbes I'll read this thread properly when both of my eyes work at the same time...


Edit : Just noticed sergeial's post about parallel universes - dunno when he posted it but it's kinda where I was goin with my theory..

[Dwagon_Cwoaker]

Oh, and regarding the idea that Parsons is a Titan, because the Titans are game-creators like Parsons? And this explains why the universal laws in Erfworld are so much like strategy game rules that Parsons is familiar with? Sure, that's one explanation. But if there's an infinite number of universes with an infinite variety of natural laws, there's no reason the summon spell couldn't have found a world where the game rules are analogous to Erfworlds natural laws. This fits what we know as well, and I think a it fits a little better. We have evidence that the causation works in that direction, and only speculation that it works in the other direction. And circular causation is unnecessarily complex.

you tricky jerk, changing your accidental double post into another good point, lol. But yeah, there is the crux of the issue right there, whether Erfworld is a parallel universe in existence, or if it is a universe drawn from the minds of gamers. I guess its how you believe in coincidence, to be honest. I do not believe in coincidences, I believe that in the grand tapestry of things every minute detail has a purpose drawn from where a thread was woven miles ago, and as such I believe that its no coincidence that Erfworld and Earth gaming have so much in common and that some cosmic force has a plan for Parson's entrance into Erfworld. It just seems that saying, 'oh, there are an infinite amount of universes, and Parson knowing how it worked was just the result of the spell's criteria', but honestly, that comes across to me as almost a copout. People seem to be really intent on being given a good story, and to me, the better story is Parson discovering that the mayhem and destruction he caused is occuring in a world he had a hand in inadvertnetly creating.

[MarbitChow]

People seem to be really intent on being given a good story, and to me, the better story is Parson discovering that the mayhem and destruction he caused is occuring in a world he had a hand in inadvertnetly creating.

Usually, when someone in a story is confronted with the discovery that the destruction that they are witnessing is ultimately caused by them, it's because of their pride, or carelessness, or some tragic flaw - some reason that the horrors they are witnessing is their fault.

In order to pin the blame on Parson in this manner, it would be like discovering that because you liked to play with Legos, thousands of people have died needlessly. There's no lesson there - no "good story".

It would also require some sort of mechanism by which our universe could actually influence other dimensions, just by our thoughts. If Erfworld is just a dream - if it's just a manifestation of the collective desires of the gamers of the world - then the mechanism is believable, but I personally think the author has already indicated that this isn't the case.

Everyone has their own ideas of what makes a story good, but there are well established tropes. You don't often read stories about where the hero reaches the end of his quest and fails miserably and irrevocably, because that usually doesn't make a good story. Yes, there are a few examples of such stories, and I won't mention them on the off chance they end up being spoilers, but in those tales, they were intentionally crafted to shatter your preconceptions AND they were completely internally consistent in the established universe. I don't see such foreshadowing here.

There are a couple of points that Erfworld is clearly making. For example:

• No matter how game-like Erfworld might be, war is never a game when real people die
• The media can freely show graphic displays of violence and death, but censors most nudity and vulgar references to sex
• Intelligence and cunning can overcome overwhelming odds

But "Hey gamers, all of those war game scenarios you entertain yourself with have real consequences" is not one of the messages I'm seeing, and as a message, it doesn't make much sense to me.

Your mileage may vary.

[Dwagon_Cwoaker]

Discovering that you had a hand in it doesn't mean you can't redeem yourself and try to change things. But you're right about the points the overall story is trying to get across, and I agree, Erfworld isn't trying to tell us that playing Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40k causes the deaths of about 200+ real people each game. I just find these hints, like from the Grand Abbie Hippiemancer, that Parson's role in the world may in fact be to break things until peace comes about.

Honestly, for right now, I'm willing to drop the Parson is a Titan theory, because back before the latest Season of Lost, I was on the forums with a bunch of other people theorizing and analyzing about all this different stuff, we all decided that the island in Lost must not be a part of the space time continuum, and that the next season would probably have all kinds of time travel. Well, the theories were right, and even knowing I was right, I just couldn't enjoy the show anymore as they randomly jumped from time to time and really great characters were removed by simply making their heads explode.

With that in mind, i'm done trying to create the proof that Parson's a Titan. Really, I can't prove it without bringing in some extraplanar force that created it, and making up some middleman to explain how Erfworld transformed from the amalgamation of tabletop games into a living breathing world just flies against all the logic i've been trying to stand by. Whether he's a Titan or not, though, I stand by my conviction that Parson going against Ansom and in the future other warlords (or Ansom again, lord knows how that'll happen) is going to be like any of us playing the computer AI in a game. He's going to be a ruthless, mischevious bastard and win more than a few battles by simply leaving the enemy unwilling to fight, and us gamers will enjoy every minute of it.

[Anton Gaist]

Whether he's a Titan or not, though, I stand by my conviction that Parson going against Ansom and in the future other warlords (or Ansom again, lord knows how that'll happen) is going to be like any of us playing the computer AI in a game. He's going to be a ruthless, mischevious bastard and win more than a few battles by simply leaving the enemy unwilling to fight, and us gamers will enjoy every minute of it.

Here here. This, my friend, I can wholeheartedly agree with.

[MarbitChow]

Whether he's a Titan or not, though, I stand by my conviction that Parson going against Ansom and in the future other warlords (or Ansom again, lord knows how that'll happen) is going to be like any of us playing the computer AI in a game. He's going to be a ruthless, mischevious bastard and win more than a few battles by simply leaving the enemy unwilling to fight, and us gamers will enjoy every minute of it.

Here here. This, my friend, I can wholeheartedly agree with.

Agreed as well, with one clarification: The "AI" Parson is playing against is Erfworld - or the rules and assumptions that Erfworld's inhabitants are forced to live under.
Parson's "side" is humanity, compassion, love, friendship and peace, and he's playing against Erfworld's inherent xenomisia*.
That's where the battlefield is now. It's not Parson against Side X (Transylvito, Charlie, etc.) - it's Parson against Erfworld itself.

* I use xenomisia ('hatred of others') because of the stipulation that opposite sides MUST attack each other when they are in the same hex, unless a commander prevents it.

[Unclever title]

The "AI" Parson is playing against is Erfworld - or the rules and assumptions that Erfworld's inhabitants are forced to live under.
Parson's "side" is humanity, compassion, love, friendship and peace, and he's playing against Erfworld's inherent xenomisia*.
That's where the battlefield is now. It's not Parson against Side X (Transylvito, Charlie, etc.) - it's Parson against Erfworld itself.

* I use xenomisia ('hatred of others') because of the stipulation that opposite sides MUST attack each other when they are in the same hex, unless a commander prevents it.

Hmm... I like this, so the ultimate goal is not to break or bend the rules but to change them. Parson's presence and ingenuity has led him to change terrain type all within the rules of Erfworld but outside of Erfworlders' concepts of honor, and "how it's done". So it's basically a first step towards that goal. Changing a fundamental thing by being unconventional. It just needs to go further by being more fundamental and unconventional. Now a big question "surrounding" Parson right now (he may or may not be contemplating the goal himself yet.) is can he do this morally? Can he make an omelete without cracking eggs? He seems to have grown a distaste for cracking eggs right now but has shown a proclivity for doing what was once seen as impossible.

Parson seems destined to change Erfworld, something that likely hasn't been done since it's creation, something Titanic. The nature of Erfworld seems to be war. There are many ways to resolve wars on Earth, often by one side winning, but few (if none) to resolve them permanently, something like that would require the nature of human beings. But we have (at least the illusion of) free will.

So to eliminate war in Erfworld one has to change the nature of the world, does that involve everyone getting free will? Or is it about that instead of eliminating war? So Parson would have to change both the nature of Erf and the nature of Erfworlders.

Yeah that seems pretty Titanic to me. Does this require Parson to be a Titan? *shrug* I'm guessing no... but that's only a guess.

Regardless it's the "Titans of Ark" who created Erfworld, or so the legend goes. I'd submit that if Parson is/will be a "Titan" that he will not be "of Ark" but rather "of Earth," or something like that. Course I have no idea what "of Ark" actually means.

I'm not generally a fan of Multiverse theory, in fiction or reality, as (in my mind) it's very NOT Occam's razor, but I don't think Parson had a hand in Erfworld's creation (in terms of causation) and Multiverse is actually pretty common in media so it seems like a good chance to be the explanation for Erfworld vs. Stupidworld.

[DevilDan]

I think when some of us talk about Parson breaking the rules, we are describing changing them or invalidating them permanently, not just flouting them.

[Unclever title]

I think when some of us talk about Parson breaking the rules, we are describing changing them or invalidating them permanently, not just flouting them.

I think it is an important distinction to make, though, because it will have differing consequences should these things come to pass.

As of yet he has not broken any rules (unless screwing Erfworld's version of the FCC was considered a rule).

The way I see it (not necessarily consensus):

Bending a rule - Not quite breaking but getting around a rule through a loophole or some unconventional method. (Dramatically exploiting game mechanics?)

Breaking a rule - Outright ignoring an established rule and acting contrary to it.

Changing a rule - Altering a rule permanently so that the things it "governs" behave differently.

Basically bending rules is following the letter of rules but not necessarily the spirit of them, breaking the rules is a one time thing that affects only the current situation (even if that is a prolonged situation) and not similar situations in the future, changing the rules is just that and changes how things related to it work from then on (and possibly before if Retconjuration is involved).

EDIT: fixing grammatical errors.

[taltamir]

I believe that in the final panel of Book 1, Parson finally catches onto something huge. He screams that he's a player, and through that realization is able to at least partially break through some of Erfworld's power over him. However, I don't think he's quite correct... or rather, that he doesn't take it far enough. You see, I believe that Parson is not only a Player... he's a Titan. Or perhaps an avatar of himself manifested on Erfworld.

Well yes... i thought that was obvious with all the foreshadowing... plus even the name is "giant in the playground"... he is the giant, erfworld is his playground.

[DevilDan]

The way I see it (not necessarily consensus):

Bending a rule - Not quite breaking but getting around a rule through a loophole or some unconventional method. (Dramatically exploiting game mechanics?)

Breaking a rule - Outright ignoring an established rule and acting contrary to it.

Changing a rule - Altering a rule either permanently so that the things it "governs" behave differently.

Basically bending rules is following the letter of rules but not necessarily the spirit of them, breaking the rules is a one time thing that affects only the current situation (even if that is a prolonged situation) and not similar situations in the future, changing the rules is just that and changes how things related to it work from then on (and possibly before if Retconjuration is involved).

I won't go as far as to call this semantics, but I will point out that "breaking" things is that of which Janis is hoping Parson may be capable:
Janis: "He broke things. Right? Rules, people, ideas... Even the land itself. You think he's even broken you."
Sizemore: "Yes."
Janis: "He hasn't. And some things do need to be broken. Follow him, Sizemore. Teach him. Help him. Be his friend, if you can. But do what he asks of you."
Sizemore: "Why?"
Janis: "Because if he breaks things enough, there may be peace in Erfworld after all."
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F141.jpg

[Unclever title]

The way I see it (not necessarily consensus):

Bending a rule - Not quite breaking but getting around a rule through a loophole or some unconventional method. (Dramatically exploiting game mechanics?)

Breaking a rule - Outright ignoring an established rule and acting contrary to it.

Changing a rule - Altering a rule permanently so that the things it "governs" behave differently.


EDIT: fixing grammatical errors.

I won't go as far as to call this semantics, but I will point out that "breaking" things that of which Janis is hoping Parson may be capable:
Janis: "He broke things. Right? Rules, people, ideas... Even the land itself. You think he's even broken you."
Sizemore: "Yes."
Janis: "He hasn't. And some things do need to be broken. Follow him, Sizemore. Teach him. Help him. Be his friend, if you can. But do what he asks of you."
Sizemore: "Why?"
Janis: "Because if he breaks things enough, there may be peace in Erfworld after all."
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F141.jpg

Certainly a good point, it might be that to (as I would say) change a rule you'd first need to (as I would say) break the rule. But I see where you're coming from.

[carisbourg]

Well yes... i thought that was obvious with all the foreshadowing... plus even the name is "giant in the playground"... he is the giant, erfworld is his playground.

Actually "Giant in the Playground" is Rich Burlew who was kind enough to host Erfworld when it first came out. See this FAQ for how the name came about.