Battlespace Filibuster

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Battlespace Filibuster

Postby zz_tophat » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:17 am

(sorry if this has been discussed but I don't know exactly what to search for)

This recent update about time has gotten me thinking: turns end when a overlord ends them so what if the feels like being a dick? Or if for a less crude reason (needs time to think) the overlord chooses not to end turn after all gambits have been played, would the passage of time end the turn forcibly or would it simply stop as it waits for the overlord to dismissively wave his hand and announce he's going to bed?

I've gotten up to use the bathroom during a game, not because the mountain dew ran through me but because I needed a minute to think. Following that tabletop gaming model it does seem that stalling is entirely possible in Erfworld.
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:33 am

Filibustering wouldn't actually impact any other sides, really.
If an overlord delays the end of his turn, time stretches on and on in his hex only - all other hexes won't notice anything unusual.

-----

Assume that the overlord is alone.

He gains additional time to think. However, units still seem to require eating, so it is possible that the units could require additional food as time stretches on, and no new food is being popped, since it only pops at the start of the turn.
They could exhaust all of their stockpiles of food in this manner, potentially. Eventually the food will run out.
They could stockpile additional food to do this occasionally, but they couldn't do it forever.

So yes, they can take as much time to think about what they're doing next as they want, but there are probably hard limits.

-----

Assume, instead, that the warlord is in a hex with a non-allied side. Now, anything goes. Either side can attack, cast spells, etc.

If the warlord has overwhelming odds in his favor, the other side may choose to do nothing, but in this case, the warlord really doesn't need time to think.
This might be useful as a siege technique, but I'm betting it would cost far more shmuckers to the overwhelming side to try to starve the tiny side out than it would to replace the units they would lose storming the town.
There doesn't appear to be any real advantage to waiting here.
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby taltamir » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:29 pm

He gains additional time to think. However, units still seem to require eating

no, units eat to LOWER their UPKEEP costs...
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:11 am

taltamir wrote:
He gains additional time to think. However, units still seem to require eating

no, units eat to LOWER their UPKEEP costs...


No, units eat. Food pops as part of their upkeep automatically, and is also available from other sources.
By grabbing food from other sources, they don't need to pop as much food for themselves, so they pay less upkeep.
If eating was the primary mechanism by which upkeep was reduced, then undead would be feasting on flesh constantly in order to maintain a zero upkeep.

Yes, I know I'm making a few minor assumptions here, but if we've been shown that units eat (Ansom's feasts, Jillian in the dungeon, etc.), and that units can lower their upkeep cost by supplementing their rations, then it's not a huge stretch to deduce that eating is thus required, and assumed as part of upkeep.

My point is it appears that they can only pop food at the start of the turn, but there are indications that their bodies follow normal biological processes - Maggie gets tired, Sizemore collects crap, etc.
If they attempt to stretch out time to infinity, they will be limited by these same biological processes, and the fact that their daily needs aren't being met if they live 72 hours in a single turn.
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby moose o death » Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:11 am

the mechanism you are trying to argue for cannot work.

even if they could harvest units to eat, they only have x amount of move per turn. so what good is being stuck in one hex indefinetely? even if all units were garrisoned and didn;t need move. they then wouldn't have rations. they wouldn't last 48 hours. i assure you engagements and casting would not be infinite so they would certainly hit innumerable issues trying to pull off what would essentially be a dick move.

duty would compell the overlord to end turn. they are not the worlds kings, it still controls them too.
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby DevilDan » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:02 pm

There surely is some mechanism to prevent a side using turn mechanics to make a Masada-like stand.

On the other hand, innate compulsions and their strong concepts of "honor" could also come into play.
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby taltamir » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:45 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
taltamir wrote:
He gains additional time to think. However, units still seem to require eating

no, units eat to LOWER their UPKEEP costs...


No, units eat. Food pops as part of their upkeep automatically, and is also available from other sources.
By grabbing food from other sources, they don't need to pop as much food for themselves, so they pay less upkeep.
If eating was the primary mechanism by which upkeep was reduced, then undead would be feasting on flesh constantly in order to maintain a zero upkeep.

Yes, I know I'm making a few minor assumptions here, but if we've been shown that units eat (Ansom's feasts, Jillian in the dungeon, etc.), and that units can lower their upkeep cost by supplementing their rations, then it's not a huge stretch to deduce that eating is thus required, and assumed as part of upkeep.

My point is it appears that they can only pop food at the start of the turn, but there are indications that their bodies follow normal biological processes - Maggie gets tired, Sizemore collects crap, etc.
If they attempt to stretch out time to infinity, they will be limited by these same biological processes, and the fact that their daily needs aren't being met if they live 72 hours in a single turn.

you assume very human like needs and conditions considering it is a world where a single man can just "pop" a fully formed adult princess daughter. where for some reason they have genders, love, sex... and the source of children is paying a fee to pop them like any other unit (and only royals can actually breed to begin with)
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby Guurzak » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:40 am

In Summer Update 33, this is said of Warchalking:

"He circled over the rows of green rye beside the road. The farms around this city were its real value. It would be good to reclaim them for Gobwin Knob."

This says to me that food is an important resource. I'm wondering if they have to actually farm and transport the goods, or if simply owning a farm hex applies a general reduction to upkeep costs.
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby Wyvern » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:26 am

zz_tophat wrote:(This recent update about time has gotten me thinking: turns end when a overlord ends them so what if the feels like being a dick? Or if for a less crude reason (needs time to think) the overlord chooses not to end turn after all gambits have been played, would the passage of time end the turn forcibly or would it simply stop as it waits for the overlord to dismissively wave his hand and announce he's going to bed?

The fact that Erfworlders have a concept of a 24-hour day implies that you can't filibuster. Units who never leave their starting hex always experience a day as lasting 24 hours, so it seems necessary that the Overlord must have some fixed amount of experienced time before his turn is forcibly ended. Otherwise the length of the day in the hex in which the Overlord resides would have to be arbitrarily determined by the "end turn" command, and it couldn't be experienced as a fixed 24 hours for the units inside it (though the time could be scaled for all the other hexes).
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby DevilDan » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:08 am

Or, actually, the most time that could pass would be the apparent period from dawn to dusk?
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby taltamir » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:40 pm

Guurzak wrote:In Summer Update 33, this is said of Warchalking:

"He circled over the rows of green rye beside the road. The farms around this city were its real value. It would be good to reclaim them for Gobwin Knob."

This says to me that food is an important resource. I'm wondering if they have to actually farm and transport the goods, or if simply owning a farm hex applies a general reduction to upkeep costs.

in most rpgs that i played, farms just give you money every turn, not food to be distributed manually.
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby Scipion » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:08 pm

Well we now know that farms can pop animals (at least pigs) and that after a few turns they vanish turning into animal related products.
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby Raza » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:25 pm

This depends on things that have been named:

1: Does...
A- The day end after 24 hours regardless of which sides have had their turns, and restart the turn cycle (unlikely, extremely exploitable)
B- The day end after 24 hours regardless of which sides have had their turns, and que the turn of whoever was going to be next for dawn (unlikely, see 2)
C- The day not end unless everybody in the battlespace has had their turn. (see 2)
D- Turns forcibly end after a side has had 24 hours divided by the amount of sides in the battlespace. (not very exploitable)

2: Do...
A- Units get tired or hungry in a mechanically relevant way relative to time passed (exploitable, better supplied sides that get their turn early could wear the other side out indefinitely before attacking, starve them out of a fortified position or even starve them to death outright)
B- Units get tired or hungry in a mechanically relevant way relative to turn% passed (not very exploitable; Bogroll spontaneously bringing Parson pre-turn food seems to suggest otherwise though)

Even the least exploitable of these possibilities is vulnerable to psy ops and/or brute force. Even if turns end forcibly, coordinating a filibuster with enough not-actually-allied sides could locally cripple action in a battlespace through sheer turntime-reduction, like a sort of erf-lag.

Erfworld may or may not have mechanics to stop this, but even well-picked mechanics generally have loopholes, and erfworld seems to run on people not thinking outside the box. Things like this might be exactly what's there for Parson to discover.
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Re: Battlespace Filibuster

Postby DevilDan » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:06 pm

Again, I just want to point out that all actions, all turns, seem to take place between dawn and dusk.

I once theorized that food can provide a "buff" of some sort. Dunno. Whatever else, I'm sure a unit can't get more than "a day's worth" of tired or hungry during a single "day."

I wouldn't bet that there are easy exploits in the turn system.
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