Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

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Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Hari Seldon » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:26 pm

Dwagon uses up all of its move flying horizontally at high altitude until all of its move is used up. Then stops flapping. It hits the hex boundary and rests there, sleeping through the night. It oversleeps, the turn starts, and it falls through the sky until it runs out of move and WHAM hits the hex boundary again.

R.I.P.
Banana
killed by a Hex Boundary while Falling

Wait, that doesn't make sense, people only die when they hit the Ground! so if a Dragon was say Frozen so it couldn't flap its wings, and it took 2 turns to fall (How could it fall more than it's aerial move points? Or is dive-bombing a valid strategy in Erfworld since falling doesn't actually take move?) it would survive the freefall hitting the hex boundary and would restart the next turn with all of their velocity (only way to get fall damage to work without bugs), fall to the ground, and die.

I think that falling should take no move, since that makes aerial combat more interesting. Of course "falling" (no wings) and "controlled descent" (Parson riding Banana) draw a fine line ... still if you realize that release of potential energy in Erfworld is what makes falling take no move, then it all lines up with Earth physics and "controlled descent" gives you more move.

Since potential energy exists it appears that booster rockets could actually give a unit extra move since chemical energy is a form of potential energy. Therefore movement in Erfworld really IS determined by the speed the unit can travel in real-time and ... Dundundunnnn ... Parson should be able to move through hexes even if he isn't promoted from a Garrison unit (ex: what happens if a Garrison unit's city gets demoished to nothing ... is that Barbarian Garrison unit now stuck in the last hex they were in for all eternity? No. At worst he turns his shirt into a sail and during a Hurricane he flies away ... but actually I think he's released from his Duty of Not Leaving the City and actually gets 1 move or something). After all, perhaps Parson dying the moment he disobeys his Warlord was really serious. Erfworld may physically enforce Duty to ... summoned units such as Parson ... so long as the Caster ... retains ... control (going by Demon summoning cliches here)?! OMGWTFBBQ Parson is breaking out of control because he can now curse (cursing might cause him to disrespect a superior officer (Stanley)) so he can't do it any more than he can leave the City when Stanley didn't promote him from Garrison. Basically Erfworld gave Parson a set of general physical restrictions to enforce his Duty, but Parson can use his mind to overcome these ... kind of like how Duty is complicated ... units under Duty may refuse an order if they think doing so aids their ruler even though he ordered otherwise. Of course, this is a slippery slope and Parson could decide that an entirely different plan of action is what would help his Warlord better than his Warlord's own plan (didn't this happen in Book 1 when he destroyed the siege engines which wasn't Stanley's plan until Parson convinced him otherwise?) then stick to that (his own) plan of action and completely ignore Stanley's orders to the contrary (though Parson would still ... be bound follow other orders that don't impede Parson's plan of action or die because he was disdutiful to his ruler).

If this sounds confusing you could look at the webcomic Freefall, whose main character is a genetically engineered sentient being with compulsions to follow Humans' Direct Orders (ex: narcolepsy triggered on/off by certain musical command to sleep/wake, obsessive compulsive to follow direct orders) but can do scary things like rationalize to kill almost any Human (any except for the last respiratory patient on the planet) because they are breathing air that respiratory patients desperately need.

Also, if Erfworld is ever found out to have a spaceflight mechanic (what HAPPENS when you go up into the sky past the atmosphere ... what happens when you reach those "stars" are they actually brilliantly shining portals that get you get teleported to different hex worlds ... well anyway it's confusing to think about because where does the sun go when it "sets"?! Nothing in Erfworld we've seen so far is 2D so why should the sky be a "2D surface"?) ... ODSTs would have a problem if falling wasn't free ;).
Last edited by Hari Seldon on Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Wyvern » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:09 am

Hari Seldon wrote:Dwagon uses up all of its move flying horizontally at high altitude until all of its move is used up. Then stops flapping. It hits the hex boundary and rests there, sleeping through the night. It oversleeps, the turn starts, and it falls through the sky until it runs out of move and WHAM hits the hex boundary again.


You're assuming hexes have ceilings. I'm pretty sure we've never seen any evidence of that. Hexes have aerial zones and ground zones which are defined in some capacity (unless that's just cities; I'm not entirely sure, come to think of it), but I'm pretty sure they don't have a barrier separating them like the hex boundaries you encounter during regular horizontal travel. You can go as high or as low as you want without ever leaving the hex or expending any move. You're talking as though every hex is a column of hexes, with each level representing various segments of the vertical airspace. Airspace isn't as complicated a concept as that.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:01 am

Hmm, well, you're right I do make a slight leap when I take the fact that you can fall without costing any move (especially since non-flying units have zero move they can apply to aerial movement so if they had to cost move to fall then ... they couldn't fall) to mean that Potential Energy exists in Erfworld. However:

Now this: "The dwagon J-hooked into a dive that took it swooping over the rooftops, directly toward them. Its wings were stiff and swept back as it covered most of the intervening distance in a single glide. As it neared their tower, it pumped its wings hard, three times. It took the tower like there was an invisible skate ramp up the side." - Summer Updates - 032 is ... perhaps suggestive of aerial hexes but definitely doesn't prove anything.

That would be kind of cheap, though, an aerial unit being able to escape into the stratosphere so far away from ground units they could barely see it (ex: could YOU hit a soaring Eagle with a bow?) at the end of its attack turn, for free. I hope that's not the case. I just think that we weren't given the details of hex-by-hex combat in Book 1 of Erfworld because it focused on Parson strategizing (which is all that he could at the time do since he barely understood the Game Mechanics, in the Summer Updates he's only beginning to get the finer points of Erfworld Game Mechanics), and only in Summer Update 33 and probably the next one or few are we finally getting some (more or less) hex-by-hex combat.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby DevilDan » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:05 am

As far as we know, dwagons will have some operational ceiling.

And, again, as far as we know, hitting a boundary does not cause any damage.

The author has said that he's planned out rules for projectiles trying to go from one hex to another: he hasn't revealed them yet, though.

There are game limits to falling, of course. If that were not the case, the the Archons could have dropped out of the sky and joined the RCC forces trying to take the garrison.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:19 am

Yes ... perhaps falling one hex doesn't translate into giving you 1 hex of move, so that you can't "instantly" fall all of the way to the ground. Very good point. So falling still costs no move (it gives you positive move instead of subtracting) but isn't unlimited.

I take by your comment you also suggest that climbing might not be free to move upwards (until you reach the operational ceiling) either, thank you for stating your ideas more fully in your most recent post.



You're right again that as far as we know hitting a boundary causes no damage. My argument that hitting a boundary at extreme velocity and not getting hurt being an unfair "save" compared to hitting the ground or some other solid object was merely to point out that it would make the game buggy, not that it was impossible. For example, when Jillian hits the hex boundary while Stanley's escaping, she can't just order someone to melee her into the next hex, that won't work, but if that melee was like a huge warhammer that was supposed to squish you like a bug between the hammer and the ground and that was used to smash her into the barrier it would be unfair for her to not take crush / extra impact damage because of the barrier. Why? Well say this situation was on the ground. The enemy unit has no move. You warhammer them, but accidentally smash them into the hex barrier instead of the ground. They take damage from your warhammer but not the crushing against the barrier since it yields to the impact (absorbs the inertia), even though their inertia - without the barrier's interference - should have carried them over slightly into the next hex, land on the ground there, and be crushed by the hammer against the ground. This is something the enemy could exploit by coming at your Warhammer Marbits (I assume Marbits are like Dwarves so why not give them warhammers) with units that use up all of their move to enter the Warhammer Marbit hex, then those enemy units hang around the hex boundary corners so if the Marbits try to Warhammer them and make them fall backwards and pulp them into the ground they almost always always fall backwards into the hex boudnary corners and take no crush damage, only impact damage.



Anyway I think this part of my previous argument is what we are beginning to agree upon:
"falling" (no wings) and "controlled descent" (Parson riding Banana) draw a fine line ... still if you realize that release of potential energy in Erfworld is what makes falling take no move (your correction: falling doesn't subtract move it might give you fractions of positive move), then it all lines up with Earth physics and "controlled descent" gives you more move.


Besides that helps explain why Banana glides ... gliding doesn't do anything unless it's converting potential energy into kinetic energy / move.
The dwagon J-hooked into a dive that took it swooping over the rooftops, directly toward them. Its wings were stiff and swept back as it covered most of the intervening distance in a single glide.
- Summer Updates - 032
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Wyvern » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:14 am

Hari Seldon wrote:Yes ... perhaps falling one hex doesn't translate into giving you 1 hex of move, so that you can't "instantly" fall all of the way to the ground. Very good point. So falling still costs no move (it gives you positive move instead of subtracting) but isn't unlimited.
.

The phrase "falling one hex" is a misuse of the language. You cannot fall a hex in distance. Changing altitude has absolutely no meaning in terms of a hex as a unit of distance. Strictly speaking, a hex isn't a unit of distance at all. It simply refers to a hexagonal area whose extent is contained by hex boundaries (which are vertical "walls" around the edges). They ARE all the same size, so you can measure horizontal distance in hexes because of that, but the geographical distance isn't the point.

I can run circles around the perimeter of my hex for hours and hours and I expend zero move. But if I walk right up to the hex boundary and then hop back and forth a bunch of times in quick succession, I can use up all of my move in like five seconds without actually going anywhere. Crossing hex boundaries is the only thing that deducts move. There are no crossable, lateral hex boundaries partitioning the airspace inside a hex into sub-hexes for you to cross and lose move from. Therefore you can never, ever incur move costs from altitude change, whether you're climbing or falling or whatever. Repositioning yourself between the various zones of your capital doesn't even expend move (I think this was explicitly stated, and note that garrison units can do it in spite of a zero move stat).

We know that, at least in a city, flying units that end turn in the "airspace" zone aren't allowed to interact directly with units in other zones (like the courtyard zone, which would be the ground). But when their turn is still active, moving up and down between the courtyard and airspace doesn't cost them extra move. There's just an explicit rule banning airspace-courtyard interaction when it's not your turn. There is a definite question as to the physics there...we don't know what happens if an Archon tries to land anyway, or if an off-turn Knight is knocked off his dwagon mount but isn't killed by fall damage. But that's not governed by a move rule, or a hex boundary rule; it's its own zone interactivity rule, the specifics of which none of us are privy to as of yet.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby DevilDan » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:14 am

At best, I'm guessing that the wings allow for finer adjustments, for maintaining attitude during flight.

It wouldn't be a "buggy" game, it would be a buggy world. E pur si muove.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby moose o death » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:36 am

the archons couldn't touch down as they were deployed as aerial for that turn. it wasn't a move issue.

units would have an operational ceiling but the game wouldn't be imposing it. you need x amount of oxygen to breath and in the case of dwagons x atmospheric pressure to flap against to keep your gargantuan hide afloat. so yeah i would assume archons can fly higher than dwagons, their flight seems to be less limted by the latter point and more reliant on their continued breathing.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Guurzak » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:08 am

Imagine hexes as tiny hexagonal-shaped countries. Your move is the number of international borders you can cross during your turn. No matter how high up you get, you're still in the same country, unless you use lateral movement to cross into another country. With that model in mind, the idea of moving up or down a hex becomes nonsense: you can only change hexes (and thus use move) by lateral motion.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby DevilDan » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:32 am

moose o death wrote:units would have an operational ceiling but the game wouldn't be imposing it. you need x amount of oxygen to breath and in the case of dwagons x atmospheric pressure to flap against to keep your gargantuan hide afloat. so yeah i would assume archons can fly higher than dwagons, their flight seems to be less limted by the latter point and more reliant on their continued breathing.


That seems, if you'll forgive the reversal, needlessly complicated. Why rely on a series of natural laws and assumptions about how gravity works on Erf and on the composition of its atmosphere and in fact on how units breathe on Erf when you can just state that they have a maximum height at which different units can fly? The "Earth physics+physiology" solution involves much more work and opens the system to hacks like Parson creating a breathing apparatus for his archons so that they can became untouchable surveillance satellites.

Funny, I'd guess that archons can't fly as high as dwagons.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:22 pm

Agh ... people ... fine do you want the gliding Dwagon Banana to get a Special Bonus for Gliding which Simulates Potential Energy Without Acutally ... I thought Parson decided there was Potential Energy when he said that he learned something from flying Banana ... that the "Potential Energy" game mechanic trumps the "Heavy units can't fly Dwagons" game mechanic.

The thing with tabletop hex games is you don't want to sit there calculating potential energy and crap if a Heavy unit attemts to fly your Dwagon and has a controlled descent (so you simply say he Can't Attempt It in the first place). Attack of Opportunity rules are bad enough already in D&D.

Erfworld is different. It's not so simplified, though it is different from Earth.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby DevilDan » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:08 pm

Parson learned a lot of things throughout that day, not just form running into hex barriers and crash-landing a dwagon, but also from an ethanol-lubricated discussion.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:38 pm

Parson sat up, with some pain. He had scraped up his hands, elbow and forehead fairly badly. A dozen concerned pikers were standing in a circle looking down.

One of them handed him a handkerchief. "Lord?"

Parson looked up at the circle of small men. "I bet you think that was really stupid," he said to them.

No-one said a word. He put the handkerchief to his bleeding elbow. "Well, yes," he admitted, "yes it was." He grinned. The faces looming over him were suddenly hilarious. "But you gotta admit, you gotta admit! I learned something today!"

Parson was talking about how he did that crazy stunt for a REASON (to learn something). To learn that the "potential energy" game mechanic overcomes the "heavy units can't fly dwagons" game mechanic.

He was basically saying "I bet you think I was stupid but I wasn't (as much as you think), because I just learned something."
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby moose o death » Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:45 pm

Hari Seldon wrote:
Parson sat up, with some pain. He had scraped up his hands, elbow and forehead fairly badly. A dozen concerned pikers were standing in a circle looking down.

One of them handed him a handkerchief. "Lord?"

Parson looked up at the circle of small men. "I bet you think that was really stupid," he said to them.

No-one said a word. He put the handkerchief to his bleeding elbow. "Well, yes," he admitted, "yes it was." He grinned. The faces looming over him were suddenly hilarious. "But you gotta admit, you gotta admit! I learned something today!"

Parson was talking about how he did that crazy stunt for a REASON (to learn something). To learn that the "potential energy" game mechanic overcomes the "heavy units can't fly dwagons" game mechanic.

He was basically saying "I bet you think I was stupid but I wasn't (as much as you think), because I just learned something."

he didn't do it deliberatly, he thought out loud and the dwagon misinterpreted that as an order. he honestly thought he was going to die.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:19 pm

But he thought of the idea in the first place because it might actually work (and it did). You're right, though, that he didn't deliberately order the dragon to test that idea out, but that's only because Parson hadn't decided whether or not to risk the running start idea yet (he had just thought of it (out loud), hadn't decided on the risk).
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby moose o death » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:24 pm

you have to keep in mind he's blind drunk too, only a drunk or an idiot would think a running start would help the dwagon take off if it's already overloaded. going over the edge may have counted as getting the speed up required to generate the lift needed to fly, but that would be a fools paradise as the glide would only assist on softening the landing. not on flying...in a city hex that could mean slamming into a wall rather than into the floor.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:56 pm

You're right a dwagon's like a helicopter, not an airplane ... a running start won't help it fly because it doesn't have non-flexible flaps that translate air blowing in its face into upward lift without expending muscle energy. Birds/Dwagons can only use updrafts (not headwinds) to generate extra lift (lift without using muscle power to do it).

But people were saying Parson couldn't even mount the Dwagon.

"Yeah, but I should still be able to get on a mount, right?"

"Ummmm. Not if you're a heavy unit. Which...I think is likely."

"Well I wanna find out," said Parson. He took three unsteady steps in the direction of the tower's edge, looking up into the sky. "I'm talking about heading back to the garrison in style. Just back over to the tower." He eyed the flying beasts and grinned nervously. It was like looking at a brand new roller coaster at Cedar Point. "What, you wanna walk?"

"Warlord. You can't do it."

"Weeee...try things," Parson said, pounding an air podium. "Right, Maggie?"

She smiled weakly. "Sometimes they even work."
- Summer Update - 031

So Parson really actually did have a point to ... gliding ... Banana :). He proved he could actually use a Mount even though he was a Heavy unit. And he did that because he wanted to know if some Erfworld mount could carry him places despite Parson having no move (being a Garrison unit).
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby moose o death » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:05 pm

yeah but you have to take that with a little bit narrative salt. in sizemore's eye's just getting onto the dwagon would be stupid if it can't take off so why annoy your bosses pets by humiliating them. sizemore has to ASK stanley if he can take a dwagon out for a ride to survey GK.

parson, fueled by liquid courage just orders a dwagon over and plomps himself on it's back, the only reason it even goes along with this is parson outranks the dwagon. had it been bogroll doing this, he'd probably be on fire, or soaking in dwagon crap.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:23 pm

*sigh* let me make this clearer:

Parson: "Yeah, but I should still be able to get on a mount, right?"

Sizemore: "Ummmm. Not if you're a heavy unit. Which...I think is likely."

Parson: "Well I wanna find out," said Parson. He took three unsteady steps in the direction of the tower's edge, looking up into the sky. "I'm talking about heading back to the garrison in style. Just back over to the tower." He eyed the flying beasts and grinned nervously. It was like looking at a brand new roller coaster at Cedar Point. "What, you wanna walk?"

Sizemore: "Warlord. You can't do it."

Parson: "Weeee...try things," Parson said, pounding an air podium. "Right, Maggie?"

Maggie: She smiled weakly. "Sometimes they even work."
- Summer Update - 031

Sizemore never asked Parson if he can take a dwagon out for a ride to survey Gobwin Knob, it was Parson who asked that to Sizemore.



I think this is like a player (Parson) arguing with the Dungeon Master (Erfworld) that they should be able to ride a Dwagon even if they are a Heavy unit because they would still be able to glide at a survivable Terminal Velocity (based on how much more they weigh compared to the level below Heavy). The Dungeon Master has the choice to either Keep It Simple no you can't do it or to reward the player for their creativity and allow the player to do it.
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Re: Falling with no move, Duty physically enforced for Summoned

Postby DevilDan » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:25 pm

Or let the player try it and fall on his face.


It's been known to happen.
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