Production vs battle turns

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Production vs battle turns

Postby valce » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:48 pm

There has to be some mechanism for ensuring that turns for fighting sides and not fighting sides aren't completely unhinged.

I mean, if you have complete control over your turn during your turn, can't a side that's not fighting just 'end turn' really really quickly? Maybe you get resources based on the amount of time that has passed inside a hex, so it's advantageous to wait a few hours before ending turn.

Also how does the first encounter work? I.E. when side A crosses into side B's territory, who's turn is it? Both sides were on their own turn when the incursion occurred... Maybe it just moves into 'battle mode' and resets turn orders? Else there maybe an advantage to contiously pulling out of battle and re-engaging, or continuously pulling out of battle and letting your enemy re-engage.
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Re: Production vs battle turns

Postby raphfrk » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:20 am

valce wrote:There has to be some mechanism for ensuring that turns for fighting sides and not fighting sides aren't completely unhinged.

I mean, if you have complete control over your turn during your turn, can't a side that's not fighting just 'end turn' really really quickly? Maybe you get resources based on the amount of time that has passed inside a hex, so it's advantageous to wait a few hours before ending turn.


You are assuming that time is constant. In Erf, time can pass at different rates in different hexes, according to one of the summer updates.
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Re: Production vs battle turns

Postby atteSmythe » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:01 am

Right. When the turn ends, each hex is at nightfall, regardless of the number of actions taken inside that hex or the amount of "local time" taken to execute those actions. So I could have the guys from Extreme Home Makeover come and swarm in and build a house in a day, and you could roll over and decide that a rainy day is unbearable and immediately end turn, and the days would still sync up for an outside observer.

What's less clear to me is what happens in the situation where Stanley's out of the city and Parson, et al., are fighting back at Gobwin Knob. Stanley could end the turn at any time, which has authority and should preempt his side's actions from continuing. Yet, how does his command to end turn sync with the actions a back at the city? It seems to me that the person of highest rank in each hex would have to end turn, at least subconsciously, with that one 'end turn' thought synchronizing the event-lines of the hexes.

Parson was worried about it during the siege, but he didn't yet know how time worked then, and I doubt Maggie had time to educate him in the middle of a battle.

If I'm wrong, and his end of turn would really have interrupted the fight, then I really have to wonder how the spot in time is chosen for the busy hex. The time-discontinuity makes it ambiguous, and lack of contact between the two hexes (via thinkagram or whatever) makes it impossible to establish an event-line.
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Re: Production vs battle turns

Postby DevilDan » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:12 pm

atteSmythe, that's an excellent point... we don't quite know if Parson's fear were rational even after we've been made privy to some details of how cross--hex time works.

I always assumed that the system works backwards: whatever you're trying to do gets "coordinated" or somehow synchronized to the hex of the ruler or overlord.
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Re: Production vs battle turns

Postby Yosarian » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:38 pm

I think that the way it worked in that comic strip was GK had already moved their turn early in the day, back when Parson ordered the surpise attack against the tunnels.

That is:

Side A takes their turn, ends it
Side B takes their turn, ends it

Day is over

GK had already ended their turn, so if Ansom had ended his turn, the day would have been over. However, if the enemy has units in the same hex you do, you can attack them on THEIR turn; you just can't MOVE on their turn.


At least, that's the way I read it. The day isn't over until everyone in the battlespace has moved, used their turn, and then ended their turn.
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Re: Production vs battle turns

Postby Yosarian » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:42 pm

It also sounds like there is a fixed turn order; that is, the sides play their turns in a specific, pre-determined order, and everyone knows what that is going to be. For example, it seems like both sides knew Parson was going to move first that day; Ansom just thought Parson was only going to defend and entrench on his turn.
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Re: Production vs battle turns

Postby Guurzak » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:01 pm

I thought the fixed order mechanic was clearly established.

"Turn at dawn means.... neither Charlescomm nor Transylvito are in the battlespace." "Nor Barbarians."
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Re: Production vs battle turns

Postby Wyvern » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:29 pm

valce wrote:There has to be some mechanism for ensuring that turns for fighting sides and not fighting sides aren't completely unhinged.

I mean, if you have complete control over your turn during your turn, can't a side that's not fighting just 'end turn' really really quickly? Maybe you get resources based on the amount of time that has passed inside a hex, so it's advantageous to wait a few hours before ending turn.

Erfworlders have a concept of a 24-hour day, so time couldn't actually appear to pass any faster in that case. My assumption is that the side that ended turn early would just have X hours of "off-turn" time until the next side's normal turn time. Both sides will have experienced everything up until noon or whatever by the time the next side is able to act.


Also how does the first encounter work? I.E. when side A crosses into side B's territory, who's turn is it? Both sides were on their own turn when the incursion occurred... Maybe it just moves into 'battle mode' and resets turn orders? Else there maybe an advantage to contiously pulling out of battle and re-engaging, or continuously pulling out of battle and letting your enemy re-engage.

Your description of this scenario doesn't make any sense. There are no simultaneous turns and movement is only possible on your own turn. If A is capable of moving through hexes, it has to be A's turn and not B's turn. So B would have to have already have ended turn and been waiting for something else to happen.
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Re: Production vs battle turns

Postby valce » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:49 pm

Wyvern wrote:Your description of this scenario doesn't make any sense. There are no simultaneous turns and movement is only possible on your own turn. If A is capable of moving through hexes, it has to be A's turn and not B's turn. So B would have to have already have ended turn and been waiting for something else to happen.


Sorry, I wasn't too clear.

Let's say A and B are not in each other's battlespaces. Therefore, A is currently having A's turn, and B is having B's turn, as established in previous comics, right? They're not close enough to be in combat, so there are no 'turn orders' -- both sides are effectively having their turns 'simultaneously'.

At some point, A enters B's battlespace. Now, right up until A crosses the boundary that marks B's 'battlespace', A is still moving on A's turn, and B is still in B's turn because there are no enemies in their battlespace. A crosses the boundary and enters B's battlespace.

Now whose turn is it? Probably not a terribly important consideration, but there could be room for interesting abuses if the rules are worked right.

This is the same for the first scenario, afaik turn orders are only enforced when two sides are in the same battlespace. Therefore a fight happening in corner of the Erf map won't affect a side sitting in another corner of the Erf map. The question is: if two sides are fighting and a third side is *not* fighting, can that third side manipulate the speed of its turn to get a big production advantage over the two sides that are fighting?

Someone brought up the concept of a 24-hour in-hex day, which would make sense as a way to stop this from happening, as would having 'hour-based' money/production rates instead of just turn-based. [This would assume that when somebody says it takes 3 turns to produce a unit, they mean 3 turns in which production rates/turn frequencies are optimized.]

Sorry for the long message, thanks for reading :)
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Re: Production vs battle turns

Postby atteSmythe » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:26 pm

valce wrote:This is the same for the first scenario, afaik turn orders are only enforced when two sides are in the same battlespace. Therefore a fight happening in corner of the Erf map won't affect a side sitting in another corner of the Erf map. The question is: if two sides are fighting and a third side is *not* fighting, can that third side manipulate the speed of its turn to get a big production advantage over the two sides that are fighting?

While the order of turns of non-engaged sides does not matter, the number of turns certainly does. While the perceived length of a day could vary for your A, B, and C, above, the turn count would have to sync up.

Whether turns happen simultaneously or sequentially when two sides battlespaces are not entangled is a question of philosophy, not practicality - if their event lines are not entwined, the two are equivalent. In either case, time in hex passes as expected, turn begins, turn ends.

I would have to say that production is not hours-based (that is, not based on in-hex time), as it is always given in units of turns (cross-hex time) by Erfworld's inhabitants.
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