Licensing Question [Answered]

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Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby Menlo Marseilles » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:47 am

So, page 1 of the comic marks the CC license in use as "Attribution Non-Commercial Share-Alike 2006". But on the Creative Commons website, there's no listing of licenses by year - just by "version", with the latest being version 3.0. I'm currently looking at possible use of Erfworld in my own creative work, and would like to know exactly which license applies so that I can re-license appropriately.

Help a brother out?

Edit: So I PM'd Rob about it and sure enough they're using 3.0. I've got a couple other minor questions about licensing (mostly spurred by Mr. Moose's concerns) but they can wait + certainly don't require a topic. Thanks for the help, everyone. :)
Last edited by Menlo Marseilles on Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby moose o death » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:30 am

my rule of thumb is

not yours then no.

i wouldn't use erfworld characters or story aspects without express written permission from both creators . no matter what the webcomics license for the non tools says. the tools h-ires licenses are very much copyright.

and honestly what right do you have to erfworld anyway? i'm sure more than a little effort has been invested into erfworld over the years. i fail to see why you should be allowed to capitalise off that hardwork for no cost to yourself.
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby joosy » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:02 am

uh.. so my erfworld furry erotic fan fic where I insert myself into the storyline would be out of line??? :shock:

http://www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby DevilDan » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:18 am

moose o death wrote:and honestly what right do you have to erfworld anyway? i'm sure more than a little effort has been invested into erfworld over the years. i fail to see why you should be allowed to capitalise off that hardwork for no cost to yourself.


Oh, I see, the CC license part is just part of the story: obviously it's some as yet unexplained part of Erfworld magic and doesn't actually mean anything on earth.

joosy wrote:uh.. so my erfworld furry erotic fan fic where I insert myself into the storyline would be out of line??? :shock:

http://www.brunching.com/geekhierarchy.html


Thanks for a real laugh early Monday morning, Joosy. Maybe you should work on your observational humor Erfworld routine instead. "So how about that Stanley the Tool. Not only does he make Napoleon look sane and sensible, he also makes him look taller!"
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby Anca » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:41 am

I hadn't even noticed the CC; interesting! But I can't tell you anything offhand, sorry, I don't know that much about the subject. Have you considered emailing the creators, if there's no FAQ around here that covers it?
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby joosy » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:56 pm

DevilDan wrote:Thanks for a real laugh early Monday morning, Joosy. Maybe you should work on your observational humor Erfworld routine instead. "So how about that Stanley the Tool. Not only does he make Napoleon look sane and sensible, he also makes him look taller!"


Heh, you're welcome.

I don't have any observational humor like that but I do have scenarios in my head..

Like Transylvito fighters countering Stanley's dance fight bonus by singing "Short People"...
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby atteSmythe » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:10 pm

moose o death wrote:and honestly what right do you have to erfworld anyway?

Attribute, share-alike, noncommercial. The Titans, though I do not presume to be able to speak for them, seem to regard creations based on their creations to be cool things.

Edit: Fan content guidelines from the old forums.
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby Menlo Marseilles » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:16 pm

moose o death wrote:i wouldn't use erfworld characters or story aspects without express written permission from both creators . no matter what the webcomics license for the non tools says. the tools h-ires licenses are very much copyright.
I'm not a Tool. I'm working from the lo-res archive.
moose o death wrote:and honestly what right do you have to erfworld anyway? i'm sure more than a little effort has been invested into erfworld over the years. i fail to see why you should be allowed to capitalise off that hardwork for no cost to yourself.
Honestly, what I'm planning to do is usually considered "fair use" anyway. I just like to follow the licensing terms if such terms are available in respect of the original author's wishes, instead of falling back to fair use. And in this case, they are available, at least in theory. Sharing of characters and setting is what a Creative Commons license is for... and since the license in question is a noncommercial-use-only one, it's not like I can "capitalize" off their work anyway. ;)
atteSmythe wrote:Fan content guidelines from the old forums.
I took a look at that, yeah. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have any info about the specific license, just a "we'll explain later how CC licenses in general work" note at the end. But it is useful as far as explaining what Rob and Jaime's wishes are irrespective of licensing terms, so it was good you brought it up.
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby moose o death » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:47 pm

look as far as i'm concerned if you use anything erfworld related without written permission you are liable to be sued. don't ask the forums ask rob and jamie directly. the lo res pages are the most open of rob and jamies work due to the nature of the beast. you'll notice if they ask the community for help the specifically say anything submitted becomes their property

so yeah if your creative endeavour is already struggling and you need cameos you've got bigger problems than "should i use erfworld stuff"

i get into these arguements over content creation all the time in video game art circles. if you didn't make it you need permission to use it. if you don't get permission and the creator objects to the manner in which their creation is used you can find yourself in trouble.

i don't care what license is applied, you can be taken to court over more than just copyright infringements.

ie, what if the manner you intend to use erfworld is on the computer screens of any of the heathens who a "holy" organisation intend to purge via suicide bombings? what if the erfworld logo is being worn by a character who murders children for thrills. i'm not saying that's what you intend to do but those are situations rob and jamie would have to demand you cease and desist using their work as it brings their work into disrepute.

so once again. if it isn't yours, you'll need written permission.

argue with me over it all you like, at the end of the day you'll still need rob and/or jamie's full permission to solve your question
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby Lord Kasavin » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:35 pm

moose o death wrote:look as far as i'm concerned if you use anything erfworld related without written permission you are liable to be sued. don't ask the forums ask rob and jamie directly. the lo res pages are the most open of rob and jamies work due to the nature of the beast. you'll notice if they ask the community for help the specifically say anything submitted becomes their property


Actually, there is a branch of Copyright law called Fair Use which lets people use copyrighted material without having to pay or even notify the original owner (depending on the "use" of course). Parody and Education are two examples that spring to my mind quickest. So, if I want to include a panel of Erfworld into a lecture (and it is somehow relevant), I can. Mind you, the laws leave a lot of flexible room. But when sports broadcasts begin by claiming ANY reproduction is illegal, they're lieing.

Don't know about the OP's plans or under what lisence Erfworld is made though.
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Re: Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby Menlo Marseilles » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:43 pm

You make some fair points, Moose - there are situations where even a properly licensed use of Erfworld IP would run afoul of totally unrelated laws (e.g. defamation or trademark laws). Personally, I think that once copyright license is granted that kind of thing would be easy to avoid violating for most sane adults, but I'd agree that anyone who wants to be 100% sure in their rights should get in touch with the actual IP holders to get their explicit go-ahead. Anyway (as per the edit to the OP) I've PMed Rob and gotten the answer to my question, so I'll probably just use that line of questioning in the future.

Lord Kasavin wrote:Actually, there is a branch of Copyright law called Fair Use which lets people use copyrighted material without having to pay or even notify the original owner (depending on the "use" of course). Parody and Education are two examples that spring to my mind quickest. So, if I want to include a panel of Erfworld into a lecture (and it is somehow relevant), I can. Mind you, the laws leave a lot of flexible room. But when sports broadcasts begin by claiming ANY reproduction is illegal, they're lieing.
If Moose has argued about this topic on other forums in the past, he probably knows about fair use/fair dealing already. I think his point was more that one can't claim "fair use" on everything, and even explicit copyright licenses don't account for all the rights one has to respect. But I expect we all agree on that point.
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Re: Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby Guurzak » Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:43 pm

Posting a CC license code on your work IS written permission to use it according to the terms of the license you selected. There's no need to bug the authors further unless you really like bugging people with "Really? Are you sure? Are you REALLY sure?" type of questions. One assumes that if the authors were not willing to grant the appropriate permission then they would not have gone to the trouble of displaying the license.

Yes, there are situations where using a work in compliance with its license can cause other sorts of problems. But in those situations, you would still run into the same problems with a personal authorization for use from the author, so it's still not gaining you anything to ask for permission.
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Re: Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby moose o death » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:10 pm

i seriously doubt rob or jamie will be annoyed by someone asking permission first. i know for a fact i would want people to verify with me before they use 3d assets i've created. even as a courtesy. you pour your heart and soul into creating something you want to be credited or at least acknowledged.
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Re: Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby Guurzak » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:35 pm

moose o death wrote:you pour your heart and soul into creating something you want to be credited or at least acknowledged.


Sure, so you put an Attribution CC license on it which requires people to credit you if they reuse your work. Which is what they did.
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Re: Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby moose o death » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:07 pm

i just don't share. i don't have time to play legal loopholes with anyone with a thesaurus.

as far as i'm concerned if its not created by you, you need permission from the author.
erfworld pages need to be submitted by the license they are as you can view them freely. these creative commons licenses mean squat to me i don't deal with the net.
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Re: Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby DevilDan » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:18 pm

moose o death wrote:i just don't share. i don't have time to play legal loopholes with anyone with a thesaurus.

as far as i'm concerned if its not created by you, you need permission from the author.
erfworld pages need to be submitted by the license they are as you can view them freely. these creative commons licenses mean squat to me i don't deal with the net.


Yes, but Rob and Jamie take a different approach; much to their credit, they are embracing CC ideas.
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Re: Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby Lord Kasavin » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:42 pm

moose o death wrote:i just don't share. i don't have time to play legal loopholes with anyone with a thesaurus.

as far as i'm concerned if its not created by you, you need permission from the author.
erfworld pages need to be submitted by the license they are as you can view them freely. these creative commons licenses mean squat to me i don't deal with the net.


Fair Use is NOT "legal loopholes." It is a well established legal tradition and law passed by Congress that puts sensible limits on copyrights. For example, if I want to review Erfworld on a website, US copyright law says I can copy art or text to do so. Mind you, Fair Use is a bit more complicated than that and is especially leery of people making money off of copyrighted material. But it exists for a very good reason.
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Re: Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby DevilDan » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:32 pm

And, in the case of fair use, it's not always about getting permission and playing nice, I'm afraid. Satirical works should be protected.

One example that's been percolating through the internet lately is a regrettable Ralph Lauren advertisement that was commentator/blog fodder for several days. As usual, lawyers without much common sense played a part:
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/10/08/se ... he-sk.html

This is a relevant story from my neck of the woods, even if it is a bit of a frivolous example:
http://40withegg.com/articles/how-to-ge ... epress-com
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Re: Licensing Question

Postby Darkside007 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:45 pm

moose o death wrote:look as far as i'm concerned if you use anything erfworld related without written permission you are liable to be sued.


Not if Erfworld uses a Creative Commons license, which permits a lot of stuff to be done without possibility of legal problems.

Seeing as how that's what the Creative Commons license is for, and all.

Also, Moose, you are speaking from a position of absolute ignorance.
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Re: Licensing Question [Answered]

Postby moose o death » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:38 pm

blissful ignorance. it's why i would never put something on the internet i wasn't willing to lose.
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