Missing?

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Missing?

Postby Kig Fso Cro d » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:18 pm

So we know neutral units pop, in the case of dragons we know the possibility of popping in any given hex is quite low but when you cover groups of 100 hexes the chances of getting a dragon increase, albeit slowly. What I'm trying to ask is shouldn't there of been more dragons in the wild to start with when the Archons where first sent to scout for dragons? Or did the dragons only start popping when Hamster thought of the possibility? Or do dragons left untamed for a set amount of terms disband? Excuse me if this has been brought up before.
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Re: Missing?

Postby sheepfly » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:27 pm

Maybe Charlescomm, Faq, or some other side actively hunts down and kills dwagons. Everyone knows Stanley can tame the beasties, plus they probably make good xp for Warlords and are more vulnerable on their own.
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Re: Missing?

Postby DevilDan » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:30 pm

So the question is, why aren't the mountains already full of dwagons? That's a tricky one. Presumably simple ecological constraints are in operation at some level. After all, they are presumably carnivorous. Predators need a lot of territory; dwagons likely cannot live off of what a single hex can provide. Stanley was capturing as many as he could find when he could spare the time, which would have kept their population down somewhat.

Out of six or seven hundred mountain hexes, 3 pop up each turn. How many hexes does a dwagon need to survive? A dozen, two dozen? We'd need to know the likelihood of prey popping and how many of these a dwagon needs to eat per turn to estimate that.

The question is, do they fight each other, or does the presence of a dwagon inhibit the probability of another popping?

If my assumption aren't valid, every single hex would be occupied in a little over 200 turns.

EDIT: Charlie could be hunting down dwagons, but assuming that it takes two archons to take down a dwagon, that would mean tying up a lot of troops, maybe 40 archons.
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Re: Missing?

Postby sheepfly » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:44 pm

DevilDan wrote:EDIT: Charlie could be hunting down dwagons, but assuming that it takes two archons to take down a dwagon, that would mean tying up a lot of troops, maybe 40 archons.


Or the 26 not originally sent to help the RCC. ;)
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Re: Missing?

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:46 pm

The way feral Dwagons were first described, it sounds like they pop one turn, and disband the next. The obvious explanation for disbanding is a feral Dwagon has no way to pay its upkeep. Hence, there are on average three dwagons somewhere in the mountain hexes on any given turn. If they are not tamed they disband and three (on average) dwagons pop randomly once again.

Otherwise, as you stated, they would slowly and surely accumulate meaning Stanley's hunts would yield a ton of Dwagons upfront and then quickly diminish.
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Re: Missing?

Postby joosy » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:01 pm

Kig Fso Cro d wrote:So we know neutral units pop, in the case of dragons we know the possibility of popping in any given hex is quite low but when you cover groups of 100 hexes the chances of getting a dragon increase, albeit slowly. What I'm trying to ask is shouldn't there of been more dragons in the wild to start with when the Archons where first sent to scout for dragons? Or did the dragons only start popping when Hamster thought of the possibility? Or do dragons left untamed for a set amount of terms disband? Excuse me if this has been brought up before.


It comes down to basic upkeep. Unless a flock of sheep or other 'upkeep' pops within 56 move of the dwagon (and it finds and defeats/eats it) it can't survive on that turn. The odds of survival for most units, even barbarians, are apparently pretty low unless they are able to find ways to sustain themselves with provisions, gems, edible units, etc.
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Re: Missing?

Postby sheepfly » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:08 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:The way feral Dwagons were first described, it sounds like they pop one turn, and disband the next. The obvious explanation for disbanding is a feral Dwagon has no way to pay its upkeep. Hence, there are on average three dwagons somewhere in the mountain hexes on any given turn. If they are not tamed they disband and three (on average) dwagons pop randomly once again.


joosy wrote:It comes down to basic upkeep. Unless a flock of sheep or other 'upkeep' pops within 56 move of the dwagon (and it finds and defeats/eats it) it can't survive on that turn. The odds of survival for most units, even barbarians, are apparently pretty low unless they are able to find ways to sustain themselves with provisions, gems, edible units, etc.


I agree with both of you; upkeep does actually make the most sense as an Erfworld explanation for why the world isn't overrun by neutral units. But this raises lots of interesting questions about neutral tribes/natural allies that might not have a steady income (if a marbit tribe can't find any gems on a given turn do all those marbits spontaneously disband?), units that don't require upkeep (can uncroaked pop as neutral units in certain terrain types?), and other situations that don't make any intuitive sense from an Earth person's perspective.
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Re: Missing?

Postby Kig Fso Cro d » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:12 pm

Cant neutral sides hire themselves out and let their benefactor pay for them? And if their is no benefactor I wonder if the neutral sides can convert their weakest into provisions or something to pay for their upkeep?
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Re: Missing?

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:15 pm

Maybe they just fly away. They got 50+ move. After 10 turns a dwagon could be more than 500 hexes away from his popplace.
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Re: Missing?

Postby Kig Fso Cro d » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:49 pm

Where would they all go? Is there a magical gathering place for all the dragons? A dragon roost? Actually that would be cool.
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Re: Missing?

Postby DevilDan » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:26 am

Neutral sides or barbarians could also live off the land, off of natural moneymancies perhaps but cerain off of hunting/gathering I'd guess.
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Re: Missing?

Postby raphfrk » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:56 am

Kig Fso Cro d wrote:Where would they all go? Is there a magical gathering place for all the dragons? A dragon roost? Actually that would be cool.


It is possible that the mountains are the main source of dwagons for all of Erf.

The dwagons cound then just spead out over a large area once they pop. This would be good tactics for them rather than crowding in the mountains and competing for food. They could even have an instinct to spread out.

Also, the fact that the mountains are where dwagons come from, it would be reasonable that the hammer would pop in one of the hexes nearby.

Alternatively, the hammer might cause dwagons to pop in its vicinity and it lay dormant in the mountains until Stanley found it.

Most sides if they had the hammer might be pretty far from any dwagon breeding ground.
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Re: Missing?

Postby jabbersocky » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:43 am

The idea that units already in the area decrees chance of units popping could be applicable here. Like marbits and gobwins the presence of a number of dragons in the area means others can't pop. (This of course would only work if that particular theory is true).


sheepfly wrote:Maybe Charlescomm, Faq, or some other side actively hunts down and kills dwagons. Everyone knows Stanley can tame the beasties, plus they probably make good xp for Warlords and are more vulnerable on their own.


I'm not sure if this would be necessary. If the world was swarmed with dwagons no sides could cope and it would unbalance the game mechanics that are the foundation of the world.
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Re: Missing?

Postby DevilDan » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:02 pm

jabbersocky wrote:The idea that units already in the area decrees chance of units popping could be applicable here. Like marbits and gobwins the presence of a number of dragons in the area means others can't pop. (This of course would only work if that particular theory is true).


Makes me wonder if the "farm" and "ranch" hexes surrounding a city wouldn't pop new animals each turn if the city doesn't have the proper building needed, for example, to hold and "process" the meat.
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