Can a Royal/Noble attune?

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Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby GWvsJohn » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:29 pm

Every attuned character we have seen has been non-Royal.

Every character we have seen who has specifically been said to be unattuned (namely the sons of Jetstone) has been Royal.

The only interesting case is Sylvia, who a)appears to be Noble (although I don't think it's been definitely confirmed, but I could be wrong) and b) clearly had some reaction to the pliers that Ossomer did not.

So, can Royals attune? Let me hear your theories and especially any evidence.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby Lilwik » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:05 pm

We know that Jetstone thought that it was at least worth checking to see if princes would attune to the pliers, so for some reason the long history of Erfworld has never firmly established that royals can't attune. On the other hand, there are so few Arkentools and attuning is also rare, so it would be very hard to establish that royals can never attune by examining history.

I suspect that royals probably tend to have the wrong attitude for attuning. They are so sure of their own importance that they probably never believe that they need a tool. That might prevent them from properly trying to explore the capabilities of the tool, just like Ossomer thought of the pliers as nothing more than an awkward club. Even the attuned don't immediately know all the capabilities of a tool, so someone who isn't motivated to try to discover the capabilities wouldn't have much chance. I don't think that royals could never attune, but I suspect they have less chance than the average unit.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby YesNinja » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:23 pm

Another question is: Can a non-warlord/caster/someone with Leadership attune?


Something interesting to note: Apparently people don't attune right away every time. Perhaps anyone CAN attune to any tool, but some people do it right away, and other people need to do something specific?
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby wih » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:14 am

That certainly was implied by what Sylvia said about holding the Arkenpliers, especially knowing that Judy didn't attune immediately to the boots. We don't know any detail about how Bell, Blair or Charlie attuned. Maybe Wanda is the special case.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:27 am

wih wrote:Maybe Wanda is the special case.
Wanda may have attuned instantly because she's using the pliers for Croakamancy. It might take her much longer to discover whatever other capabilities the pliers have. Judy needed turns to attune to the Arkenshoes, but maybe a Turnamancer would have attuned instantly.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby YesNinja » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:32 am

Do you really think the pliers do MORE? They're already game-breaking enough as it is. Haha.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby wih » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:09 am

The Pliers, as well as the Shoes, do one thing - one brutally, overpowered thing. The Hammer does many things, none of which are completely over the top (bar rocking out, natch /s). I wouldn't put any quatloos on the properties of the Dish.

So either the tools have different scopes of power, or the power changes per the user. Either seem potentially true.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby mortissimus » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:07 am

GWvsJohn wrote:The only interesting case is Sylvia, who a)appears to be Noble (although I don't think it's been definitely confirmed, but I could be wrong)


I think you are wrong. She started out at a royal side, but as a stabber. Just as Stanley started out as a piker at a royal side, but that does not make him royal or noble.

She is called Lady Syliva at times, but so is Wanda and she is popped by an Overlord.

So Syliva is a commoner, which strengthens the theory.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:24 am

I'm pretty sure she's Royal.

As funny as this game was in many ways, inside her there was a former Royal who had been there.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:32 am

GWvsJohn wrote:I'm pretty sure she's Royal.
It's curious terminology. She's a Sylvia is a former Royal, but clearly not a princess. She wasn't what I would call personally royal, but was a member of a royal side, which is apparently enough to call a person "Royal" in Erfworld.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:28 am

I don't think so. Stanley and Sylvia were both popped as Infantry by a Royal side. Sylvia self-identifies as Royal. Stanley does not. Stanley is explicitly non-Royal. To me, that implies Sylvia is Royal, in the strict, Erfy definition.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:14 am

GWvsJohn wrote:Sylvia self-identifies as Royal. Stanley does not. Stanley is explicitly non-Royal.
Stanley is an Overlord and a Toolist, the leader of the most powerful counter-royal side, so naturally he wouldn't self-identify as Royal, but I expect his feelings about royalty in Book 2 are quite different from what they were when he was serving under Saline IV. It's not clear how Stanley would have self-identified back then. Don't forget that by the time we see Sylvia self-identifying she's actually self-identifying as former Royal, meaning that people who self-identify as Royal can stop self-identifying as Royal.

Of course in Sylvia's case the thing that caused her to stop self-identifying as Royal was croaking, which is more extreme than anything that happened to Stanley, but we also know that Sylvia started as mere stabber, and not just any stabber, but one of those stabbers that Queen Bea would have croak rather than spend juice upon.
From Book 2, Page 86: Sylvia: "Queen Bea was mad enough at all the fuss over a Level 1 stabber."
So I think we can rule out Sylvia being a princess, since she's clearly not Bea's daughter. It also seems unlikely that Sylvia is any sort of nobility, especially since nobility doesn't usually get called royalty in Stupidworld.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby drachefly » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:10 am

Perhaps she meant 'royalist'.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:07 am

drachefly wrote:Perhaps she meant 'royalist'.


Perhaps she meant Noble. I agree that it's not 100% clear, but, to me, that line implies she's Noble/Royal.

There's a lot we don't know about Noble/Royal mechanics. Maybe infantry don't have it, but it can manifest upon promotion. Maybe they have it but it doesn't mean anything until they're promoted. Maybe they can't have it, and can never win it even when promoted. We just don't know.

What we do know is that there are two Warlords that were promoted from Infantry on Royal sides that we know pretty well. One is vehemently non (anti?) Royal. The other considered herself "Royal."
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby drachefly » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:36 pm

I get the feeling that Stanley isn't so much anti-royal as
A) pro-himself. Crusading for the tools. Which involved stepping on royal toes.
B) the royals think he killed Saline and therefore he must be anti-royal himself.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby Whispri » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:40 pm

I'm thinking that 'Royal' Sides are actually the equivalent of 'NPC' Sides, hence the stat boosts.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby ManaCaster » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:54 pm

Assuming a Royal indeed cannot attune, maybe there are some special cases. What would happen if a Royal caster got an Arkentool aligned with their discipline? Like if Empress Saltina got her hands on the Arkendish for example?
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby SNfinity » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:32 am

I was under the impression that the attuned were meant to represent civilian leaders heralding change, with the royals being the establishment. Hence the stat boosts - the royals are literally born with an advantage. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I've always seen the Tools as being archetypes of historical and mythical figures, with a twist.
Stanley is a civilian who rose through the top through dubious means, has a tendency to promote incompetents to leadership because he likes them, regularly threatens to kill his most competent general for slights, and is the closest thing to a figurehead allowed under the rules of Erfworld. Stanley is an autocratic ruler of a communist state, such as Soviet Russia or North Korea, except that in this system his incompetence has very little impact on his side because Wanda and Parson are doing all the heavy lifting. Wanda is a prophetic doom and gloom type with a tendency to stand on elevated platforms and perform miracles. Wanda is Moses in a skirt. This interpretation suffers a bit unless you see Parson as a passive participant in Erfworld, which makes his summoners and assorted conspiracies responsible for his actions. The twist for Wanda is that other people are responsible for all of her miracles, and her only significance is that she's always downstage center when it happens. Finally, Charlie was once at the forefront of a plot to make the world a better place, but he became corrupted by his power (the Arkendish) and now is in opposition to his former goals. Charlie is Maximilien "The Incorruptible" de Robespierre. The twist is whatever Charlie is really planning, though what that is is anyone's guess.
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby MadZuri » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:58 am

Do we have evidence that Blair, Bell, or Charlie aren't Royal?
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Re: Can a Royal/Noble attune?

Postby Lilwik » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:37 am

MadZuri wrote:Do we have evidence that Blair, Bell, or Charlie aren't Royal?
If Charlie were a king that would make Olive a queen, but she's called an Overlady. I haven't been able to find any place where Charlie is called Overlord, but I'm sure he's never called King either.
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