Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

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Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby No one in particular » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:26 pm

This latest update (IPTSF 74) got me thinking "Man, Banhammer's big... almost Parson-esque big... oh, what if he's also a Stupidworlder? What a delightful conspiracy theory based on one random comparison!"

But before I started writing an Epileptic Twee about it, I thought I'd go back and check on the other known Stupidworlder we've seen, Judy. That's when it hit me:
    Judy is about the same size as Jillian (IPTSF 51)
    Jillian is about the same size as Wanda
    Wanda is significantly shorter than Ace
    Ace only comes up to a little over Parson's shoulder (LIAB Epilogue 3)
I guess what I'm saying, is... Judy was SHORT! Maybe like, 4'8?

Oh, also, my conspiracy theory based entirely on height is shot to pieces, but the replacement theory that anyone could be a Stupidworlder (Paranoia! Infiltration! Invasion of the Bodysnatchers! "They look just like us!" Oooo~!) is looking better.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:43 pm

Well it makes sense that height is yet another component of Signamancy, so in the context of these characters I have a theory. Height could have to do with sense of importance. Tall characters either have a very high opinion of their own worth, or others think they are very important; whereas short characters feel they are less valuable, or others dismiss them as unimportant.
We already know the latter to be true from Slately's observation. Parson could be tall because everyone expects a lot from him, and he is internalizing those expectations. Banhammer is tall because every looks up to him figuratively, and he thinks he is worthy of that position. Judy was short (and perhaps always was) because nobody expected anything from her. Even when she was first summoned, the very casters who summoned her may not have been sure she would succeed.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:55 pm

0beron wrote:We already know the latter to be true from Slately's observation.

Are we really going to use Mr."I didn't know I was dead" as a valid source of information about how magic works? That would be like counting to potato.

Also didn't Rob say Parson's gamer group would come back years ago? Invaders from EarthWorld!
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby 0beron » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:17 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Are we really going to use Mr."I didn't know I was dead" as a valid source of information about how magic works? That would be like counting to potato.
I think yes, we actually can use his testimony as evidence, because it's based on experience. He was ignorant about Dittomancy because he never bothered to ask or pay close enough attention, whereas he knows first-hand how he has changed over time.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby No one in particular » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:51 pm

I think a better way to phrase it would be that as far as evidence goes, we can't count on Slately to lecture about it, but we can still use him as a case study and direct evidence.

Ignoring his conjectures and just looking at his observations, coupled with the other small (Stanley) and big (Banhammer, King Don)... I'd be willing to form the hypothesis that the relative sizes we've seen are more about personal insecurities and self-confidence.

  • Stanley, for all his posturing and boasting, is incredibly insecure and feels useless.
  • Slately, for all his disdain and cries of "Royal Superiority!" also feels useless, and that he's never lived up to the high standards he preaches.

Banhammer and Don, however, were both supremely sure of themselves in the quiet, absolute way. They'll listen to others' advice, and can change their minds, but their core ethos never faltered.
  • Banhammer believed in a way other than war and predation, and did what he could to cultivate it in Faq.
  • Don ignored convention and established a meritocracy, something even non-Royal rulers don't normally do (I'm looking at you, Stanley's "Promote the handsomest" policy)

Extrapolating a bit, we can look at a few more big folks: Ace & Al Frappacino (Intermission 13).
  • Ace has his moments of doubt, but he is still much more confident in his purpose than most Erfworlders we've seen; he's meant to work with metal and plastic, not fluff and glass. He constantly builds and invents accessories in the face of the unspoken commands of his Ruler (Had that buffoon really wasted juice without orders on this critical turn, just to make another "accessory?" - LIAB Text 42).
  • Al is comfortable enough with himself to unashamedly admit to being a weird guy (because he names his fish) and hug the crazy unwashed barbarian after she apologized for killing his fish.

What does this mean for Parson? I would guess that what he lacked in initiative in Stupidworld, he makes up for in convictions. He doesn't want to kill. He won't take advantage of Leadership to force himself on the Archons. He won't send troops where he himself won't go.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Lipkin » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:37 pm

So what you're saying is... Parson is the bigger man?

I wonder how Trem will change with ruling.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:42 pm

0beron wrote:I think yes, we actually can use his testimony as evidence, because it's based on experience. He was ignorant about Dittomancy because he never bothered to ask or pay close enough attention, whereas he knows first-hand how he has changed over time.
*Cringes* He doesn't know squat. He thought Aces table of gear was there because the Titans themselves wanted him to have a table to sit at. He was an uneducated religious fanatic. His thoughts, such as they are, are suspect on any subject.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby No one in particular » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:01 am

Shai_hulud wrote:
0beron wrote:I think yes, we actually can use his testimony as evidence, because it's based on experience. He was ignorant about Dittomancy because he never bothered to ask or pay close enough attention, whereas he knows first-hand how he has changed over time.
*Cringes* He doesn't know squat. He thought Aces table of gear was there because the Titans themselves wanted him to have a table to sit at. He was an uneducated religious fanatic. His thoughts, such as they are, are suspect on any subject.

To be fair, Slately had a point, as far as Narrative Causality goes. The Titans Rob and Xin wanted Slately somewhere private to chat, so he had his own little table. :p

Going back to Slately as evidence though, I repeat: I wouldn't listen to him as a lecturer, but I would listen as a case study. Or, in another way, he's not a Doctor, but he's got the disease. His conclusions about causes and reasons may be suspect, but his descriptions of how HE feels and what symptoms present themselves are still telling!
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:40 am

He sat around all day and got fat during that time. That could tell us that people need to exercise more, not that he has magic fat powers. It's just like the table. He saw a table. That doesn't mean the table is useful as a case study on natural fate magic. Random noise that we only pay attention to when it supports our beliefs is still random noise.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby bpzinn » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:56 am

While the above may be true, Parson is problematic as a point of reference because he is confirmed to have the heavy special, and the hobgobwins became larger when promoted to heavy status. I think what the signamancy of Parsons size is mainly saying is that Parson has the heavy special. If for no other reason that he has not been on erf long enough to have more peripheral signamancy sink in.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:28 am

Shai_hulud wrote:He sat around all day and got fat during that time. That could tell us that people need to exercise more, not that he has magic fat powers. It's just like the table. He saw a table. That doesn't mean the table is useful as a case study on natural fate magic. Random noise that we only pay attention to when it supports our beliefs is still random noise.


His physical appearance is a result of signamancy regardless of his thoughts on it or the table. Given how far from his noble ideals he is it makes sense for him to be short. Deep down, just like Stanley, he is unsure of his position despite the call placed upon him to rule (Titanic Mandate for Slately and Attunement for Stanley). They both show a supremely confident face to their side shaped by their idea of how you should rule but deep down both are extremely insecure about their position. Thus short signamancy. Makes perfect sense to me irrespective of what either of them think about it/know about magic.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:07 pm

His physical appearance is a result of signamancy regardless of his thoughts on it or the table.
Eh? Why would this even make sense? The only reason you think signamancy changes how people look based on what people think is because he (and Vinny) said so. If we ignore what he thinks then there is literally zero reason to think that, isn't there?
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby 0beron » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:11 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
His physical appearance is a result of signamancy regardless of his thoughts on it or the table.
Eh? Why would this even make sense? The only reason you think signamancy changes how people look based on what people think is because he (and Vinny) said so. If we ignore what he thinks then there is literally zero reason to think that, isn't there?
Because that is how Signamancy works, as stated by multiple people besides Slately. We have seen it at work first hand with Maggie, Wanda, Jack, and Jillian.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:21 pm

The issue here is whether they're ugly on the inside causes them to become ugly on the outside. None of those people you listed got ugly because they had low self esteem. I'm not sure why you even think those examples are proof of anything at all. For the record, I'm not saying that magic hallucinations becoming real isn't a thing, I'm saying that our only sources of information about why peoples appearances change are two people who... lack formal magical education, to say the least. So why conclude an entire world view based on just two unreliable remarks?
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby 0beron » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:28 pm

Well for one, the issue isn't really about self-esteem in particular, it's about role and personality and mood influencing appearance. And our concrete examples of this at work are:
  • Jillian: Is becoming even more beautiful and regal after becoming queen.
  • Maggie: Becoming more youthful and energetic as she builds a relationship with Parson and Sizemore and stops being a cold bitch.
  • Jack: Appearance changes drastically once he regains his sanity
  • Wanda: Experiences a rollercoaster of appearances through her lifetime, the low-point of which actually IS associated with atrocious self-esteem.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:23 pm

I'm trying to come up with a different way to say what I'm saying, since the idea of selection bias doesn't seem to mean anything to you. It's... like what Jack said about Foolamancy. People don't see what the world is, they first construct a narrative about what they think they should be seeing, and then use that to determine what they're seeing. So if you see something you don't think fits you ignore that. But if something looks like it does fit, then not only does it fit, but it's proof even though there could be multiple interpretations for those examples. There appears to be a discrepancy between the examples you've given, and what you think is the only possible conclusion. Since I'm not seeing that your narrative is the only explanation, it doesn't seem to me that what you've said is actually true per se. Do you see what I'm saying?
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:39 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm trying to come up with a different way to say what I'm saying, since the idea of selection bias doesn't seem to mean anything to you. It's... like what Jack said about Foolamancy. People don't see what the world is, they first construct a narrative about what they think they should be seeing, and then use that to determine what they're seeing. So if you see something you don't think fits you ignore that. But if something looks like it does fit, then not only does it fit, but it's proof even though there could be multiple interpretations for those examples. There appears to be a discrepancy between the examples you've given, and what you think is the only possible conclusion. Since I'm not seeing that your narrative is the only explanation, it doesn't seem to me that what you've said is actually true per se. Do you see what I'm saying?


So what do you think signamancy is if not a physical representation of information?

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png

The example of Jillian as she becomes Queen. Her outward physical appearance is changing to represent her changed nature. Namely she is a Queen now and not a Barbarian. Even when she was a barbarian Don King mentions how the truth of her royalty shows through in a number of small ways. These things are signamancy just as Slately and Stanley's height are. Seeing what you want to see doesn't mean the real signs arn't there. It just means you're not seeing them.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:46 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm trying to come up with a different way to say what I'm saying, since the idea of selection bias doesn't seem to mean anything to you. It's... like what Jack said about Foolamancy. People don't see what the world is, they first construct a narrative about what they think they should be seeing, and then use that to determine what they're seeing. So if you see something you don't think fits you ignore that. But if something looks like it does fit, then not only does it fit, but it's proof even though there could be multiple interpretations for those examples. There appears to be a discrepancy between the examples you've given, and what you think is the only possible conclusion. Since I'm not seeing that your narrative is the only explanation, it doesn't seem to me that what you've said is actually true per se. Do you see what I'm saying?

About the only thing he has actually said so far is that Signamancy exists and changes over time, and that it most likely has to do with either how you are viewed, how you view yourself (as a reflection of your true inner feelings, the 'truth monster' as it were), or a combination of the two, with other possible small factors included. All of which is more or less the very definition of Signamancy. You claim that he's ignoring things that doesn't fit his view, but honestly I can't think of a single example where that is the case. It seems like you're the one who is dismissing things that doesn't support his view. Can you provide some example where a character looks like Ansome, but inwardly feels huge self doubt? Or a character that is withered and dying like Wanda, but has the confidence of Ansome? Well, not counting being injured, poisoned, etc.
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:39 pm

It's a cause and effect issue. Correlation doesn't imply causation and all that. A different way to ask the question would be have we seen a unit who's conditions didn't change, only peoples perceptions of them, but they still had altered signamancy. Because until we actually see that, then there is no logical reason to assume it isn't, say, lifestyle changes. I mean people get tired from moving their muscles, so their muscle are doing some sort of work right? And Parson lost weight over time from exercise. Wouldn't it make more sense that Jillian is putting on weight from two months of sitting around the house? You aren't really going to tell me you think the most likely reason for a character getting fat while sitting around all day is that they lacked the will to thinness, are you? Except that's you're saying so I guess you would. :|
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Re: Height Differences: Stupid v Erfworld

Postby bpzinn » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:49 am

Shai_hulud wrote:It's a cause and effect issue. Correlation doesn't imply causation and all that. A different way to ask the question would be have we seen a unit who's conditions didn't change, only peoples perceptions of them, but they still had altered signamancy. Because until we actually see that, then there is no logical reason to assume it isn't, say, lifestyle changes. I mean people get tired from moving their muscles, so their muscle are doing some sort of work right? And Parson lost weight over time from exercise. Wouldn't it make more sense that Jillian is putting on weight from two months of sitting around the house? You aren't really going to tell me you think the most likely reason for a character getting fat while sitting around all day is that they lacked the will to thinness, are you? Except that's you're saying so I guess you would. :|


You are correct. We have not seen signamancy alter a persons appearance "on screen" as it were. But we have had various people talk about the effects as if it were a real phenomenon. And more importantly, we have the people around them not treating them like they have a screw loose. That does not make the theory is necessarily correct, but does mean that such ideas have either popular support among the crowd hearing it, or enough official support that they do not call the emperor naked due to fear of some sort of consequences. Rather like the "Titanic Mandate" as it were. But while people can have rather fu*ked up opinions, fu*ked up ideas about the physics about the realm you live in are easier to disprove and end up biting you in the ass, ala the Catholic Churches 200 year plus "position" on heliocentrism.

All that said, I still believe signamancy works the way people in-comic think it does. At least in broad strokes; none of them are signamancers, after all. If you believe this is instead all natural foolamancy, this is OK.

Care to bet a few quatloos on it?
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