Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:53 am

Lipkin wrote:Since Croakamancy deals with primarily the body, it's not much of a stretch to say the box used croakamancy to cause Jillian's eyes to stop working, while Orwell's Lookamancy caused Jillian to see only blackness.
True, it's only a little stretch to attribute that one to Croakamancy, and then another little stretch to attribute the hunger to Croakamancy, and the itching to Croakamancy too, but why would we want to stretch when we've got an explanation that is so much simpler? All these effects could just have been magic of whatever discipline most easily fits them.

It's blindness, so it looks like Lookamancy until there's evidence that suggests it's not. I guess the deafness was Lookamancy too, since I suppose Lookamancy deals with sounds as well as images and know of no discipline that's more likely. I'd bet the pain is Shockmancy; Wanda is probably very good at that. The hunger is hard to guess, but perhaps that could be Flower Power. The rolling is Turnamancy beyond any doubt, but I wouldn't be surprised if the freezing is also Turnamancy, since it seems fitting for a Turnamancer to be able to slow as well as accelerate things, and ice is what you get when you stop water. I have no guesses for itching and thirsting, but Croakamancy would be one of my last choices. Hearing the sound of screaming was surely Foolamancy, since there was no one actually screaming, but we could make an extra long stretch and call that Croakamancy too.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:09 am

Lilwik, you're seriously reaching. Literally everything that Jillian experienced can be described as manipulation of her body, which is exactly the type of insight a Croakamancer can provide. It's a simple matter of applying or denying Motion to a part of the anatomy.

As for the issue of limited casting, I disagree on burden of proof, it is on Lilwik and company to prove they can cast outside the discipline. Let me simplify it in this way; every instance of linking (with the exception of Charlie of course) can be supported by limited casting. In other words, it is a theory we can accept without any additional explanation. Unlimited casting however does require us to invent or speculate on things that have not been demonstrated. Therefore, it lies upon you to present compelling evidence that supports this additional speculation...and presently I don't think such evidence exists.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:14 am

ftl wrote:Remember, Wanda's always been interested in disciplines beyond just croakamancy.


Not interested. Capable. Opposite of SIzemore, right?

And as for this whole argument, I think the real conclusion at this point is we haven't got enough information to decide the question. Burden of Proof arguments are used either when there are overwhelming prior odds (not present) or when you want to call a halt with a definite answer (no such need is present).
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:22 am

0beron wrote:I disagree on burden of proof, it is on Lilwik and company to prove they can cast outside the discipline.
It is impossible to prove that, just as it's impossible to prove that they can't cast outside their discipline. We don't have the kind of knowledge we would need for those sorts of proofs.

0beron wrote:In other words, it is a theory we can accept without any additional explanation.
It would be nice to have an explanation for how Croakamancy can make Jillian believe she hears screaming when no one is screaming. If Croakamancy is capable of doing the things that Jillian experienced in the box, it would be nice to have an explanation for why Wanda so dislikes casting outside of her discipline; why ever cast outside her discipline at all when Croakamancy alone can do almost anything?

0beron wrote:Unlimited casting however does require us to invent or speculate on things that have not been demonstrated.
Unlimited casting power is what you're attributing to Croakamancy. We know Wanda did these things, but Wanda can cast in many disciplines. The tricky bit comes when you have a theory that says she was blocked from using other disciplines when she did this. Suddenly we're expected to figure out ways to believe that Croakamancy can be like Lookamancy and Foolamancy, and do a half-dozen other things in addition to the only thing we've ever verified Croakamancy doing.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:58 pm

Dude, you're being obtuse. Disciplines have overlap all the time and it makes sense. Everything Jillian experiences is a manipulation of her physiology, as would be well within the realm of Croakamancy paired with Turnamancy. We already know Turnamancy converts a unit by torturing them, so pair that ability with a Croakamancer's innate sense for anatomy, and boom you have the box, end of story, no wild speculation required. If you cannot accept even that basic concept then this argument is over because you are clearly too stubborn to have a well-reasoned debate with...or somehow just not reading the same comic.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:19 pm

Croakamancy gives you complete control over Uncroaked, units under the Caster's control. A unit in the box is completely under the control of the torturer. hence you can create sensations.

Or maybe the box itself is creating the noises/images in the context of torture, and magical torture falls under the purview of Turnamancy.

You're using one line by Wanda (which might have just been an exaggeration and insult to Sizemore) to give her the ability to cast in like every discipline. We know she can do croak, think, rhyme and hat. If the majority of Casters can only do 1, 4 might be consider "quite a number."
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:36 pm

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:I disagree on burden of proof, it is on Lilwik and company to prove they can cast outside the discipline.
It is impossible to prove that, just as it's impossible to prove that they can't cast outside their discipline. We don't have the kind of knowledge we would need for those sorts of proofs.


YES. Can we stop this now?

0beron wrote:In other words, it is a theory we can accept without any additional explanation.
It would be nice to have an explanation for how Croakamancy can make Jillian believe she hears screaming when no one is screaming. If Croakamancy is capable of doing the things that Jillian experienced in the box, it would be nice to have an explanation for why Wanda so dislikes casting outside of her discipline; why ever cast outside her discipline at all when Croakamancy alone can do almost anything?[/quote]

It was during a link. Controlling the senses could easily be in the realm of 'technically possible but WAY beyond what you can normally do' for Croakamancy, like throwing mountains around would be for a dirtamancer and ending a turn would be for a carnymancer.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Sir Shadow » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:28 pm

Lilwik wrote:
0beron wrote:In other words, it is a theory we can accept without any additional explanation.
It would be nice to have an explanation for how Croakamancy can make Jillian believe she hears screaming when no one is screaming. If Croakamancy is capable of doing the things that Jillian experienced in the box, it would be nice to have an explanation for why Wanda so dislikes casting outside of her discipline; why ever cast outside her discipline at all when Croakamancy alone can do almost anything?
0beron wrote:Unlimited casting however does require us to invent or speculate on things that have not been demonstrated.
Unlimited casting power is what you're attributing to Croakamancy. We know Wanda did these things, but Wanda can cast in many disciplines. The tricky bit comes when you have a theory that says she was blocked from using other disciplines when she did this. Suddenly we're expected to figure out ways to believe that Croakamancy can be like Lookamancy and Foolamancy, and do a half-dozen other things in addition to the only thing we've ever verified Croakamancy doing.
Wanda herself said that Croakamancy itself covers limited Shockmancy. Everything that you're saying the box did 'extra' could easily come from that.

Not to mention, we don't know the box did all of those things. Jillian could have just been delirious due to the heat of being inside of a glass box in the sun.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:25 pm

0beron wrote:Disciplines have overlap all the time and it makes sense.
What's a clear example of disciplines overlapping? I know that all casters can do Hobokens and it seems like there's no specific class for conjuring powerballs, but mostly each discipline seems to have a specific thing that it's good at and other disciplines aren't able to do.

0beron wrote:Everything Jillian experiences is a manipulation of her physiology, as would be well within the realm of Croakamancy paired with Turnamancy.
You're talking about manipulating physiology in a very broad way. Blinding and deafening Jillian could be done by damaging her eyes and ears, and making her hunger could be done by emptying her stomach, but what kind of physiological manipulation creates a controlled specific hallucination? Are we really saying that Croakamancy can rewire a person's brain with that degree of control and precision with absolutely no supporting evidence?

drachefly wrote:It was during a link. Controlling the senses could easily be in the realm of 'technically possible but WAY beyond what you can normally do' for Croakamancy, like throwing mountains around would be for a dirtamancer and ending a turn would be for a carnymancer.
Absolutely it could be, but is it really the most likely explanation? The things that we know casters have done during links all seem to be natural extensions of the things they do outside of links, like uncroaking the volcano; Sizemore moved a mountain, just like he's been moving dirt around as long as we've known him, but more so, and at least Wanda was uncroaking something in some sense.

Now we're expected to believe that Wanda did something during a link that had nothing to do with uncroaking anything, even metaphorically. Of course there's no problem with that because Wanda is known for casting in other disciplines aside from Croakamancy. She was even bragging about it to Jillian when talking about creating the box.

Sir Shadow wrote:Wanda herself said that Croakamancy itself covers limited Shockmancy.
I remember that too, but in looking around for it I can't find it. Does anyone know where it is? I find it hard to believe that one discipline actually covers part of another discipline. I expect that when I actually find that quote I'll see that she was saying that Croakamancers are capable of limited Shockmancy in addition to their Croakamancy, just like Isaac is capable of Lookamancy in addition to Thinkamancy. It's just a natural secondary discipline for a Croakamancer, not an overlap between disciplines. It would be fascinating if I were wrong about that. Is it in Book 0?
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Sir Shadow » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:54 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Sir Shadow wrote:Wanda herself said that Croakamancy itself covers limited Shockmancy.
I remember that too, but in looking around for it I can't find it. Does anyone know where it is? I find it hard to believe that one discipline actually covers part of another discipline. I expect that when I actually find that quote I'll see that she was saying that Croakamancers are capable of limited Shockmancy in addition to their Croakamancy, just like Isaac is capable of Lookamancy in addition to Thinkamancy. It's just a natural secondary discipline for a Croakamancer, not an overlap between disciplines. It would be fascinating if I were wrong about that. Is it in Book 0?

No, I'm fairly certain it was in Book 1 at some point... like when she was explaining some magic to Parson or something.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:10 pm

Lilwik, you are absolutely hopeless. I'm amazed you even bother asking for evidence when you're going to ignore it anyway and disregard all basic logic. I'm done attempting to prove the obvious to you.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:06 pm

I think the most likely explanation is that Turnamancy covers magical torture. A Turnamancer can do those things in the context of torture.

Or a Croakamancer can do those things to uncroaked and the link allowed a limited extension to the "living" if they're in the box.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:37 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:No, I'm fairly certain it was in Book 1 at some point... like when she was explaining some magic to Parson or something.
This one was hard to find, but I got it eventually. I looked through Book 1, but it quickly became clear that Wanda wouldn't have said something like that about herself when she is capable of casting in many disciplines. It sounds more like something Jillian would say when she was struggling with her basic knowledge of Croakamancy, so I went back to Book 0 and finally found it in Episode 56:

"How can you cast outside your discipline?" asked Jillian. Since she’d never had casters to command, she rarely thought about them. Outside? She thought a Croakamancer was only good for Croakamancy, and basic Shockmancy.

This is actually Jillian, not Wanda, so clearly we need to take it as coming from someone who could easily be wrong, but it seems that I was right about the way it was phrased. Croakamancers can do basic Shockmancy. The fact that Croakamancy and basic Shockmancy were listed as two separate items strongly suggests that they are separate concepts and basic Shockmancy is not included as part of Croakamancy, at least in Jillian's mind.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:56 pm

Lilwik wrote:This one was hard to find, but I got it eventually. I looked through Book 1, but it quickly became clear that Wanda wouldn't have said something like that about herself when she is capable of casting in many disciplines. It sounds more like something Jillian would say when she was struggling with her basic knowledge of Croakamancy, so I went back to Book 0 and finally found it in Episode 56:

"How can you cast outside your discipline?" asked Jillian. Since she’d never had casters to command, she rarely thought about them. Outside? She thought a Croakamancer was only good for Croakamancy, and basic Shockmancy.

This is actually Jillian, not Wanda, so clearly we need to take it as coming from someone who could easily be wrong, but it seems that I was right about the way it was phrased. Croakamancers can do basic Shockmancy. The fact that Croakamancy and basic Shockmancy were listed as two separate items strongly suggests that they are separate concepts and basic Shockmancy is not included as part of Croakamancy, at least in Jillian's mind.


Good find. I think, however, she might be referring to the Hoboken which is surely Shockamancy.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby drachefly » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:01 pm

Lilwik wrote:Absolutely it could be, but is it really the most likely explanation? The things that we know casters have done during links all seem to be natural extensions of the things they do outside of links, like uncroaking the volcano; Sizemore moved a mountain, just like he's been moving dirt around as long as we've known him, but more so, and at least Wanda was uncroaking something in some sense.

Now we're expected to believe that Wanda did something during a link that had nothing to do with uncroaking anything, even metaphorically.


No, but she WAS manipulating the body in a way that was not caused by its being alive. It's far far less of a stretch than uncroaking the volcano.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:36 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:I think the most likely explanation is that Turnamancy covers magical torture. A Turnamancer can do those things in the context of torture.
I think I could believe that. Turnamancy does have turning units as part of its main business and Tina at least obviously liked using torture to help with that. We also know that Turnamancy has many various applications that sometimes seem to be only loosely connected. I'm tempted to think it has too many abilities already, but it still seems more likely that Turnamancy would surprise us with new abilities than that Croakamancy would. Croakamancy seems pretty solidly set into having just one very powerful ability.

On the other hand, I like to imagine that the magic of Turnamancy just applies pressure on a unit to change sides, just an abstract force pushing the unit away from his side so that the grip of loyalty is weakened and it is easier for the unit to decide to turn. For units that have too much loyalty to be overcome that way, I imagine that Turnamancers use torture as a backup plan, not a proper magic of the discipline. It would be just like if Sizemore found a rock so hard that he didn't have enough Dirtamancy to dig through it and resorted to physically hitting it with a nonmagical pick to help the magic along. So I imagine a Turnamancer's dungeon would be full of Stupidworld-style physical torture devices and a collection of torture scrolls from various disciplines. I think that's why the box was made, to give Tina a super magical torture tool by combining Tina's Turnamancy with Wanda's strangely eclectic set of skills. It's all just wildly unfounded speculation; no one knows how Turnamancy turns people, but it feels fitting.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Balerion » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:32 am

0beron wrote:As for the issue of limited casting, I disagree on burden of proof, it is on Lilwik and company to prove they can cast outside the discipline. Let me simplify it in this way; every instance of linking (with the exception of Charlie of course) can be supported by limited casting. In other words, it is a theory we can accept without any additional explanation. Unlimited casting however does require us to invent or speculate on things that have not been demonstrated. Therefore, it lies upon you to present compelling evidence that supports this additional speculation...and presently I don't think such evidence exists.


Disagree with the every time argument; we've never seen a time when it was even a possibility because multi-discipline casters appear to be rare. It's like saying that I observed 100 ten year olds fail to drive a car down a course while staying between the cones, and based on that observation it is clearly ridiculous to think a nascar driver might be able to do it. When the links we've seen haven't had the option of bringing in multiple disciplines through a single caster, claiming they are proof/evidence that it can't be done makes no sense; the abilities of the participants in the two situations aren't remotely comparable, to the point they are entirely different experiments.

Limited disciplines also requires speculation; it forces a caster in a mind meld to lose capabilities they had before. It raises all sorts of questions regarding how linked a caster is to their discipline (ie penalties for cross casting, how the innate knowledge grows/doesn't with level, why the innate knowledge is special) that we don't have answers to; it raises the question of allowing the caster to pick which discipline is brought into the link, and why that would be impossible. We don't have an explanation for those questions in the comic, which means any assertion one way or the other on their answers is by definition speculation.

I'll agree with you that right now the evidence leans towards 1 caster-> one discipline in a link up. But I don't think it does so anywhere near as decisively as you are trying to claim.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby conmor » Fri May 30, 2014 7:55 am

what this boils down to is WHAT CAN THE ARKENTOOLS DO???

does the arkendish give the powers of thinkamancy, does it act like a thinkamancer for some functions, or IS it a thinkamancer in the way that it can sort through thoughts and add thinkamancy to a spell or link-up.

do the arkenpliars fine tune a discipline by adding on a "missing" element or does it "complete" the discipline by adding all "missing" elements? or does it simply allow an attuned caster to have a higher than master control of his/her discipline? is it just that Wanda is master+1 class for her skill level and that anyone that learns enough of his discipline can do this? can the arkenpliars attune the a non-caster? what would happen if they did? would the up the leadership bonus or something else?

do the arkenshoes grant infinite SPEED, or do they allow infinite move in the way that you can move through as many hexes as you want granted that you have the time? with the teleportation ability, do you have to change your personality to change the destination of this ability? can you use this ability as much as you want? or can you just use the arkenshoes to teleport into a throne room assassinate a ruler and teleport out before anyone knows you're there?

does the arkenhammer grant any stronger abilities or is it a melee weapon that you would get if you somehow had all the disciplines of casters join in a link up? how much in Rocking Out different from dance-fighting. can it tame anything other than dwagons? if you smash something other than a walnut, like a cabinet, with the arkenhammer, does it have a chance of turning into something proportionally bigger than a pigeon? is it possible to walk in to a city smash everything and create a bevy of random monsters? can the flying ability be used to transport heavies? does it allow the user to enter the MK as a shockmancer?

their are two arkentools used by warlords and 2 arkentools used by casters. is this a coincidence? or is it that they can only be attuned to these types of people. can the arkenpliars be wielded by any caster? what about only any master class caster? does the arkenhammer only attune to someone with a destructive personality or is it only a non caster? what would happen if a shockmancer attuned to it? would it increase the arkenhammer's shockmancy? what about a date-a-mancer? would different wielders be able to tame different monsters? what would happen if a thinkamancer attuned to the arkendish? would it allow a better compatibility than it does with Charlie? is Charlie able to cast a carnie spell at any range?

answer these questions and you would have a good idea of what the arkentools are.

the final question that I have for personal interest is: what would happen if you linked the tools, the tools not the wielders? would you need a dollamancer or thinkamancer for that? is it possible for a MM attuned to both the arkenpliars and the arkendish?
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