Grand Strategy

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:56 pm

Lamech wrote:
Lilwik wrote:I expect that no discipline of magic is radically better than any other, so if that's the way it seems to work then we're probably missing something.
There was a link up between two carnymancers, and possibly a third unknown caster? Arkentools are way better than any other discipline. Links are cheating bastards. Like how Parson got the mathamancy bracer from the summon warlord spell. Or the volcano put Sizemore's traps to shame.
um...wat? First of all, what link between 2 Carnies are you talking about? And secondly, all those other points are apples and oranges. Duh 'Tools and Links are more powerful....they're not disciplines of magic. One is a divine relic, and the other is a combo of multiple schools, so yeah saying they are more powerful is kind of a non sequitur, and that's putting it midly.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Lamech » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:05 am

0beron wrote:
Lamech wrote:
Lilwik wrote:I expect that no discipline of magic is radically better than any other, so if that's the way it seems to work then we're probably missing something.
There was a link up between two carnymancers, and possibly a third unknown caster? Arkentools are way better than any other discipline. Links are cheating bastards. Like how Parson got the mathamancy bracer from the summon warlord spell. Or the volcano put Sizemore's traps to shame.
um...wat? First of all, what link between 2 Carnies are you talking about? And secondly, all those other points are apples and oranges. Duh 'Tools and Links are more powerful....they're not disciplines of magic. One is a divine relic, and the other is a combo of multiple schools, so yeah saying they are more powerful is kind of a non sequitur, and that's putting it midly.

Let me rephrase: I assume the spell used to save Red involved a link up between Charlie and Jojo, and possibly another. I'm not sure what else Charlie could have had on hand that would allow him to help. Charlie is a carny. Jojo is a second Carny. That's two. Lilwik's point seemed to be that we had to be missing something since one area of magic shouldn't be clearly better. My counter-point was that stops holding when link ups are in play. Dish/Link enhanced Carnymancy CAN be better than any other single discipline when not similarly charged.

The fact that it was a super-charged Carnie spell doesn't really change the point. Red's death had to be repaid. Except the "repayment" was really a buff of obscene power.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Lilwik » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:42 am

Lamech wrote:I assume the spell used to save Red involved a link up between Charlie and Jojo, and possibly another.
I don't understand why that is being assumed. Is there some evidence that Charlie was involved that I've missed? Of course I know that Jojo is involved with Charlie in Book 2, and maybe that's because he's repaying Charlie for Charlie's help in saving Sylvia, but that's all wildly speculative. The mere fact that Jojo has a connection to Charlie doesn't count as evidence that Charlie is involved in everything that Jojo does, especially things that were in the past and possibly before Jojo started working for Charlie.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:25 am

Lamech wrote:I assume the spell used to save Red involved a link up between Charlie and Jojo, and possibly another.
Red's death had to be repaid. Except the "repayment" was really a buff of obscene power.
Yeah I agree with Lilwik that assuming Red's spell required 2 carnies is very speculative, there is definitely no proof or even suggestion of it. The only things that speculation is based off of (with alterative reasons to explain them) are:
  1. It took JoJo a few days to "make the deal". (This could just mean he was finding a Predictamancer to help him figure out a cost worth trading, or a Luckamancer to help boost him before casting it.)
  2. JoJo is now serving Charlie. (They're both Carnies, so this isn't neccessarily a surprise. Carnies are a disliked discipline, and JoJo doesn't have a boss anymore. Of course he's gonna take work from a Carny ruler, or a Ruler who shows no grudge against Carnies)
As for the repayment actually being a buff...that is speculation as well. We don't actually know what the repayment was. What you are referring to as a bufff could very well have been part of the deal, and the actual payment was even bigger (ya know...the destruction of an entire Side when their Queen has the idea to commit suicide).
I would also be hesitant to actually call the phenomenon of her being saved in Spacerock a "buff". Consider how many other units had to die or suffer in order for her to dust that way, and how her side's objectives were hurt. GK won the fight, but paid dearly for it, more so than they needed to.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Werebiscuit » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:58 am

0beron wrote:Yeah I agree with Lilwik that assuming Red's spell required 2 carnies is very speculative, there is definitely no proof or even suggestion of it. The only things that speculation is based off of (with alterative reasons to explain them) are:
  1. It took JoJo a few days to "make the deal". (This could just mean he was finding a Predictamancer to help him figure out a cost worth trading, or a Luckamancer to help boost him before casting it.)
  2. JoJo is now serving Charlie. (They're both Carnies, so this isn't neccessarily a surprise. Carnies are a disliked discipline, and JoJo doesn't have a boss anymore. Of course he's gonna take work from a Carny ruler, or a Ruler who shows no grudge against Carnies)
As for the repayment actually being a buff...that is speculation as well. We don't actually know what the repayment was. What you are referring to as a bufff could very well have been part of the deal, and the actual payment was even bigger (ya know...the destruction of an entire Side when their Queen has the idea to commit suicide).
I would also be hesitant to actually call the phenomenon of her being saved in Spacerock a "buff". Consider how many other units had to die or suffer in order for her to dust that way, and how her side's objectives were hurt. GK won the fight, but paid dearly for it, more so than they needed to.



Wait a minute !.... Which death of Red are we talking about as being payment ? The one at the volcano...or her dusting in the fire ?
Her immunity at Spacerock was after her death in the volcano...so JoJo's debt would have been repayed by that time , wouldn't it ? Unless the Arkenpliers can somehow tap into the fate mechanic too... which gives them another level of multiplier beyond the insanely powerful no upkeep, in the right situation.
if they can be used to raise units that are fated to die in certain ways then those units become unstoppable till they meet the right conditions. A powerful mechanic if you can use the unit in ways that enure the conditions can't be fulfilled.
Last edited by Werebiscuit on Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:02 am

Oh...I assumed folks were talking about Spacerock. Her death at the Volcano was nothing special at all...she wasn't saved by extrodinary Luckamancy then, didn't doing anything crazy or reckless to cause a fire...she just croaked.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Werebiscuit » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:05 am

0beron wrote:Oh...I assumed folks were talking about Spacerock. Her death at the Volcano was nothing special at all...she wasn't saved by extrodinary Luckamancy then, didn't doing anything crazy or reckless to cause a fire...she just croaked.

She did however die by fire so her "fated " death was fulfilled if that's what jojo's bargain stated

she was "saved" by extrordinary luckamancy after that... which shouldn't have anything to do with jojo's bargain. Should it ?
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:10 am

Well, she died by fire again at Spacerock. I don't think the manner of death is payment enough though...even if she dies the same way, she is getting extra time on the clock so a price has to be paid. Maybe that was just his Juice, maybe there was something more. Perhaps Bea's suicide was the payment. Maybe the lives lost to the Volcano were payment.
We can probably assume that the terms of JoJo's deal bound her to forever be croaked by fire. But that doesn't tell us how this deal was paid for.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby mortissimus » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:02 pm

Or maybe the lives she took with her at Spacerock through lighting it on fire was the payment.
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Re: Grand Strategy

Postby Lilwik » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:42 am

0beron wrote:Her death at the Volcano was nothing special at all...she wasn't saved by extraordinary Luckamancy then, didn't doing anything crazy or reckless to cause a fire...she just croaked.
I think being decrypted counts as extraordinary luck, given the situation. She certainly wasn't alone in being decrypted, but of all the battles that she could have died in, it was rather lucky that she happened to die in that one.
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