Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

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Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby s-dub » Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:48 am

I was thinking about what exists already in Erfworld that might be able to stand up against firearms. Here's a short list:

Cloth Golems
Armored Dwagons (maybe)
Rock/Stone/Mud/Crap Golems
Animated Trees (forget what these are called but Hippiemancers can awaken them)
Megalogwiths
Ships
Certain items that protect against projectiles (we saw Wanda's staff absorb a ranged Archon attack in Book 1)

Personally I would love to see Ace and a Weirdomancer make a flying fortress based off of several flying ships.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Silversought » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:56 pm

Those tree things were Tannenbaums I believe.
Megalogwiffs wouldn't surprise me; they're all gummy! Most damage I see being dealt to them and the gwiffons seems to be head removal (Though it -is- unlikely that they're actually only vulnerable to crits. Way OP if that were true. Do you think Erfworld acknowledges slashing/piercing damage difference? That would make them pretty good for dealing with guns.)

If I recall correctly, Wanda's staff was a Staff of Suckage (GK sure likes them) with one-time magic attack protection. Maybe bullets apply?
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Lamech » Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:07 pm

Silversought wrote:Those tree things were Tannenbaums I believe.
Megalogwiffs wouldn't surprise me; they're all gummy! Most damage I see being dealt to them and the gwiffons seems to be head removal (Though it -is- unlikely that they're actually only vulnerable to crits. Way OP if that were true. Do you think Erfworld acknowledges slashing/piercing damage difference? That would make them pretty good for dealing with guns.)

If I recall correctly, Wanda's staff was a Staff of Suckage (GK sure likes them) with one-time magic attack protection. Maybe bullets apply?

Wanda blocked multiple shots with the staff before having it shatter on the ground. Parson got it broken in one. We don't know the reason for the difference.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby ftl » Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:21 am

s-dub wrote:I was thinking about what exists already in Erfworld that might be able to stand up against firearms. Here's a short list:

Cloth Golems
Armored Dwagons (maybe)
Rock/Stone/Mud/Crap Golems
Animated Trees (forget what these are called but Hippiemancers can awaken them)
Megalogwiths
Ships
Certain items that protect against projectiles (we saw Wanda's staff absorb a ranged Archon attack in Book 1)

Personally I would love to see Ace and a Weirdomancer make a flying fortress based off of several flying ships.



Striking first.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:53 pm

Lamech wrote:Wanda blocked multiple shots with the staff before having it shatter on the ground.

I don't think this is true. Book 1 only showed her staff getting hit once. What wasn't said was if it broke from the blast or the fall.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby drachefly » Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:15 pm

If you can capture some of the firearms, use them back against him. Of course, you need to bell the cat, as it were.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:43 am

I'm not sure there is a counter to firearms. IRL the firearm has surpassed everything else for a reason, and even long before them certain higher powered bow weapons were pretty damn OP. See for instance certain Chinese bows, English long bows, and repeating crossbows. Not to mention Greek and Chinese flame thrower weapons.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Lipkin » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:05 am

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm not sure there is a counter to firearms. IRL the firearm has surpassed everything else for a reason, and even long before them certain higher powered bow weapons were pretty damn OP. See for instance certain Chinese bows, English long bows, and repeating crossbows. Not to mention Greek and Chinese flame thrower weapons.

Yeah, but that's the real world. The real world doesn't have giant marshmallow birds that bite people's heads off. Erf has far more options on how to stand up to guns than the real world ever could.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:37 pm

When I said firearms I meant long range high power weapons that can be mass produced. If you don't think customizable ranged weapons are Op then you haven't played enough strategy games or RPG settings with custom magic weapon rules. The only thing that could really stop them is probability magic, plot armor, and teleportation. But why you wouldn't just pile probability & fate magic on some of the guns and then use combined arms tactics would be beyond me.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Lipkin » Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:19 am

Or you link Jack and Wanda, make Spectre units that are intangible, and laugh when the projectiles pass harmlessly through.

It's a fantasy/imaginary setting. If you can't think of a work around, you lack imagination.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:15 pm

If you think that is a solution, then you clearly lack any experience with fantasy and horror settings that contain magic firearms. The only settings where ranged combined arms tactics don't dominate is because somewhere a writer or game designer forced it to be that way. If you can't understand that, then you lack not only imagination, but a basic understanding of tactics and strategy too.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby wih » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:30 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:If you think that is a solution, then you clearly lack any experience with fantasy and horror settings that contain magic firearms. The only settings where ranged combined arms tactics don't dominate is because somewhere a writer or game designer forced it to be that way. If you can't understand that, then you lack not only imagination, but a basic understanding of tactics and strategy too.


Most fantasy settings have Control spells dominate IMHO, not ranged attacks.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Lipkin » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:59 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:If you think that is a solution, then you clearly lack any experience with fantasy and horror settings that contain magic firearms. The only settings where ranged combined arms tactics don't dominate is because somewhere a writer or game designer forced it to be that way. If you can't understand that, then you lack not only imagination, but a basic understanding of tactics and strategy too.

Your entire argument rests on that you think guns should be unbeatable. Certainly they could be, if that's the way Rob wanted it to go. But guns are not automatically OP. They have to be written that way.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby 0beron » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:31 pm

Lipkin wrote:Your entire argument rests on that you think guns should be unbeatable. Certainly they could be, if that's the way Rob wanted it to go. But guns are not automatically OP. They have to be written that way.
^ This. The author decides what is OP and what isn't and Rob's style thus far has been to NOT make something OP. Rather, it's been a game of cat-and-mouse one-upsmanship with situational advantages. Nothing so far has been universally OP all by itself. Even the Decrypted, the closest we have gotten to stand-alone OP, are now showing their potential limits.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby ftl » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:23 am

Shai_hulud wrote: The only settings where ranged combined arms tactics don't dominate is because somewhere a writer or game designer forced it to be that way.


All the settings where guns dominate is because a writer or game designer wrote them to be that way. All the settings where guns don't dominate is because a writer or a game designer wrote them to be that way.

As a common example of where guns don't dominate, look for a fantasy setting where guns are a dwarf-specific thing. There's a few of those floating around, I think, where dwarves are the "race" that makes and uses guns and nobody else really does, and it ends up balanced.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Lamech » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:51 pm

Guns didn't become OP in real life until well after their invention. In Erfworld guns probably have some sort of weapon stat. They may grant cool specials like increased attack rate or whatnot.

However guns are not automatically a be all end all. In principal they might not be any better than a longbow from a high class/level hobgobwin. Remember this is Erfworld. A gun is probably a lot better than a normal longbow, but that doesn't mean a archon wielding a gun is better than a heavy knight hobgobwin with a particularly twoll made longbow. Nor will an archon against an unarmoured dwagon necessarily fare any better if the archon has a gun and the dwagon has plate.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Mrtyuh » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:18 pm

The real value of firearms is their ease of use. Up until the widespread adoption of the rifle musket, bows outclassed guns in terms of accuracy and effective range. It wasn't until the invention of the breech loader than firearms surpassed bows in terms of rate of fire. So why did everyone adopt firearms over bows long before those innovations? Bows, like swords or spears or virtually every other weapon take a lifetime of practice to truly be proficient in their use. In 1330, King Edward III outlawed all sports in England except for archery, specifically so he'd have a pool of recruits trained in the use of the longbow, a probation that lasted until 1414. That's the true reason guns revolutionized warfare. You can take a group of people out of the fields or off the streets, give them guns, and, in a couple of weeks, you'd have a fairly effective military force. Suddenly, a relatively untrained group of peasants could take on and expect to defeat a nobility that had been training to fight their entire lives.

How does this translate into Erfworld? We learned during the Summer Updates that any unit can throw a brick and have a 1-in-5400 chance of croaking an enemy, but you need the archery special to have a reliable chance of hitting. Now, units in Erfworld don't need a lifetime a training. Archers pop with the archery special. While they may become more capable as they level, they are proficient from the moment they pop. What about firearms in Erfworld? Do you need an archery special to use them effectively, or are they like their Stupidworld counterparts, anyone can use them? If the former, they really aren't any more effective than bows. The main advantage I would see in Charlie arming his archons with firearms is that it allows them to save their juice in combat for other things. If anyone can use firearms, though, the best counter to them is firearms, and I would say that Parson has an advantage over Charlie.

The most effective way to use firearms did not simply appear along with them. The first widespread tactic was the Spanish column. It was pretty inefficient, since it limited the front and the number of muskets that could be brought to bear at once. That was supplanted by the linear tactics of Gustavus Adolphus, King of Sweden, which, although modified, are the basis of the tactics modern militaries use. As technology advanced, though, you see the introduction of Hutier tactics and the use of fire teams. Charlie seems to be the only side in Erfworld that has firearms in any numbers, and, by his own admission, he's never had to use them. He doesn't know how to use them to the greatest effect. Parson is from Stupidworld. While he was never in the military, he would have a better grasp on the most efficient ways to employ them. We've seen Ace make grenades and a ray gun. He could start making firearms for Parson, probably. While Charlie can always try copying the way Parson uses firearms, he would probably not understand the underlying tenants that Parson is using, so he would maintain an advantage.

Of course, it's always dangerous trying to speculate on how things in Stupidworld transfer over to Erfworld.
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby bladestorm » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:29 pm

s-dub wrote:I was thinking about what exists already in Erfworld that might be able to stand up against firearms. Here's a short list:

Cloth Golems
Armored Dwagons (maybe)
Rock/Stone/Mud/Crap Golems
Animated Trees (forget what these are called but Hippiemancers can awaken them)
Megalogwiths
Ships
Certain items that protect against projectiles (we saw Wanda's staff absorb a ranged Archon attack in Book 1)

Personally I would love to see Ace and a Weirdomancer make a flying fortress based off of several flying ships.

Hippiemancer block aggression spells
Metal golems
Dolls, to a small extent
Forcefields
Hex barriers
Turnamancer constructs
Kingworld ending Charlescomm's turn before the firearms can be used
Localized warping to bend the bullet's path around the target
Illusions
Thinkamancer stunbolts
Predictamancers, especially en masse
Trilink predictamancer/thinkamancer/thinkamancer to communicate localized predictions to all units on a Side in the same hex as the guns
Weirdomancer changing the effects of the bullets (change the damage to healing)
Healomancers healing the damage as soon as it is inflicted
Linked shockamancers if that will extend their range
Stealth golem, up until the Archons decide to strafe or are able to break the veil
Long ranged mind control thinkamancy
Turnamancy to 'turn' the bullets back at the shooters
Nuke from orbit
Magickal item that will not let your hits fall below 1
Protection from Bullets spell
Rayguns with a longer range and better accuracy
Decrypted Archons wielding firearms (anything you use against the players, the players have a tendency to use against you)
Haidoken volley
Overkill on the air defenses of your towers (Jillian was confident that she could take out the archons with tower spells, wielding a rifle doesn't make them any less vulnerable)
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Re: Tactics vs Charlie's firearms

Postby Alpha the White » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:06 pm

First, +1 to what Mrtyuh said about relating Stupidworld experience to Erfworld.
In that regard, I see two possibilities:
1. Charlie's guns are like our guns. You take some explosives, stick them in a package with a bullet, make a machine that triggers the explosion and fires the bullet.
Erfworld precedent: Uncroaking the GK volcano acted much like a volcano in stupidworld, sending stuff across hex boundaries and such. This suggests that explosions may work similarly enough in Erfworld.
Rules Problems: Precedent or no, this defies the structure of the game, where combat activities of all kinds are governed by game rules. Even the volcano uncroaking may have only appeared to work like a real volcano, but was really just designed by the Titans as the ultimate "dirtamancy trap." tl;dr: Erfworld is a game, not a simulation.

2. Charlies guns are magic items. We know Charlie likes to hire magic users, so it comes as no surprise that he would have spent some time building up an arsenal of magic guns for his archons. Given his penchant for linkups, it's even likely that his guns are better than the one Ace made for Slately. That gun was itself pretty potent, as it instantly wiped out the drain-shield on Parson's staff, where in book 1 we saw a copy of the same staff deflect several spells in Wanda's hands.
Erfworld precedent: King Slately's gun ("Pew"). As a dollamancer accessory, Slately's gun just applied what looks like shockamancy.
Rules Problems: None, this would be perfectly within the observed rules of Erfworld. However, we can't necessarily use Slately's gun to predict exactly what Charlie's are capable of because of the link-up potential that Ace didn't have.


Second, regarding Parson's response.
If the first of my cases for guns is true (Charlie's guns are explosives-driven), then all bets are off and anything in Bladestorm's list could be the appropriate response.

If, however, my second case is true (Charlie's guns are magic items), I'd say the first thing Parson would do is see if he can come up with some kind of "magic EMP."
He knows that there are items that can counter magic energy of many kinds (his staff), and that this was described not as a shield but as a "drain".
I think he'd want to see if he can use a linkup with Ace+Thinkamancer+??? to create a Drain Bomb which would render the guns inoperative.
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