Summer Update 28 Retcon

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Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:07 pm

Read about the new version in the news here.

Old version:
"How would you make a magic blanket?" Parson asked, gnawing on a heel of the rye loaf. "If you wanted one?"

Sizemore looked at Maggie, who was nibbling cheese, and spoke up. "That's Stuffamancy. Really versatile magic. Weapons, armor, tools... Stuffamancers just imagine it and conjure it."

"Conjure as in make it?" Parson said with his mouth full. "Create it? Or summon it from somewhere?"

Sizemore leaned forward excitedly, rocking a little as he spoke. "That's a great question, Warlord. There's a big debate about that, getting right down to the level of 'what is magic?' and 'what is stuff?' Some Casters think they're the same thing, and that Stuffamancy proves it. But even the Stuffamancers don't agree about that."

"Interesting," said Parson. And it was. But something Sizemore had said interested him more. "Where does a 'big debate' like that even happen? In the Magic Kingdom


New Version:
"How would you make a magic blanket?" Parson asked, gnawing on a heel of the rye loaf. "If you wanted one?"

Sizemore looked at Maggie, who was nibbling cheese, and spoke up. "That's Changemancy. Really versatile magic. Weapons, armor, tools... Changemancers either rework and enchant an existing item, or just imagine a new one and conjure it."

"Conjure as in make it?" Parson said with his mouth full. "Create it? Or summon it from somewhere?"

Sizemore leaned forward excitedly, rocking a little as he spoke. "That's a great question, Warlord. There's a big debate about that, getting right down to the level of 'what is magic?' and 'what is stuff?' Some casters think they're the same thing, and that Changemancy proves it. But even we Stuffamancers don't agree about that."

"We..." Parson thought back to the table of magic that he had carefully put down into his notes. He should really make it a point to memorize that thing. "Oh, right. Dirtamancy is Stuffamancy. And Changemancy is, too?"

Sizemore nodded. "Dirtamancers do the big scale projects, tunnels and buildings. And we can make golems. Changemancers mostly do small items. They can enchant objects and do detail work, but they can't make new units."

"So it's like construction work versus handicrafting, okay. Interesting," said Parson. And it was. But something Sizemore had said interested him more. "Where does a 'big debate' like that even happen? In the Magic Kingdom?"


Ace's statement on fabrication and Dollamancy in Book 2 Text 30:
"Look, there's a lot you can do in Dollamancy. It's fabrication with a motion element, right? If we want. But that's way over your heads, ain't it?"


Digdoug's statement on fabrication and Dirtamancy in Digdoug Episode 3:
Most sides thought of Dirtamancers as custodians, mere fabricators or golem tinkers.Follywood had kept him out of view at court, as if they were ashamed he had even popped there. From Duke Eften’s remarks, it seemed Delkey didn’t think much of him, either.

But there was so much you could do with Dirtamancy, and King Posbrake and his warlords understood that.


Ok, now lets discuss. I'll start it off:

1. How do we reconcile the statement that Dirtamancers are fabricators with the statement that Changemencers are the fine detail workers?
Does that mean fabrication isn't the same as detail work?

2. Why don't they make units even though their cousins the Dollamancers and Dirtamancers can?
Why would Motion golems be Fate/fine detail work, but Matter golems be Erf/large scale work? This goes back to my golem thread here.

3. What's the difference between an item fabricated with Dirt magic and an item conjured/transformed by Change magic?
Can you not mod an existing item, or does this mean there are mods that a fabricator just couldn't do that an enchanter could? Is that the difference? Enchantment vs modification?

4. What's the difference between an item fabricated with Dirt magic and one fabricated with Doll magic?
I assume that Dirtamancers don't make Pew Pew sci-fi blasters. This really gets into "What's Matter" and "What's Motion" and trying to figure out if the elements even really exist, and what they actually are/control.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby 0beron » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:23 pm

The update helps clarify that. Dirtamancy can't fabricate an item. Fabricate is basically just a fancy term for "make", and all the disciplines being discussed here can make objects. Dirt makes buildings, Doll makes accessories that are Motion-based, and Change makes other kinds of accessories.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby No one in particular » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:57 pm

  1. Pretty much, yeah! 0beron sums it up pretty neatly.
  2. My impression of the three disciplines was one of magnitude, with some overlap. Dirtamancers can do Cities and golems, Dollamancers can do golems & item modification, Changemancers do item modification and creation. Something I think of note is that Dirtamancers & Dollamancers require already existing material to work with. Sizemore needs to collect crap for his golems, Ace needed Cubbins for object conjuration.
  3. One issue is that Dirtamancers don't fabricate items; they fabricate man-sized or larger constructs. Ultimately, it might be a matter of classification. If you modify a small thing, it was Changemancy because it was done on a small thing. If you make a trap or modify the structure of a City it's Dirtamancy. Dollamancers muddy the waters with their object modification and golem creation, but really, it's all Stuffamancy.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lilwik » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:15 pm

0beron wrote:Dirt makes buildings, Doll makes accessories that are Motion-based, and Change makes other kinds of accessories.
I would bet that technically only Dollamancy makes accessories, just because the word "accessory" is what Dollamancers use for the non-raiment items that they make, and I'm guessing that Changemancers don't use that word for their items.

Further, I'm going to guess that Dollamancy and Changemancy are at opposite ends of the spectrum of item making. I expect that since Changemancy is Stuffamancy, Changemancers have a lot in common with Dirtamancers, and Changemancers make items like an engineering project. Changemancers make armor because when a Changemancer makes clothing he takes pride in making it strong with excellent structural properties. His job is well done if the things he makes are made of very good Stuff, while fine detailing is pointless fiddling.

On the other end, I expect Dollamancers are all about the details. A Dollamancer is like a tailor. He doesn't make the fabric; he makes the fabric fit the customer. He sews and takes pride in the fineness of his stitches. He makes ratchets and gears and latches and other fine moving parts that work with smooth action. If Erfworld had clocks, I bet Dollamancers would be the ones to make them, while a Stuffamancer would see a clock as nothing more than a box of assorted bits of metal, and all its movement would be a mystery.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby 0beron » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:27 pm

The "accessories" quibbling is silly, fabricate is a term that crosses disciplines so why wouldn't accessories? And further...who even cares what the caster would call them? We're more interested in discussing the object, and "accessory" is an appropriate general term in our langauge.

As for your other theories on what's covered, it's explicitly contradicted by the comic. Changeamancy IS concerned with the details.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lilwik » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:53 pm

0beron wrote:Changeamancy IS concerned with the details.
I agree, it does say that. I missed that, which was careless of me, but I don't think it really contradicts my theory. My theory is all speculation, so any bit of evidence against it would be enough to tear the whole thing down, but just consider who is talking! Sizemore says that Changemancers deal with detail work and obviously from a Dirtamancy perspective that would be true, but that doesn't mean that a Dollamancer would agree with calling Changemancy "detail work". All I'm suggesting is that detailing for a Dollamancer means something much, much finer than detailing for a Stuffamancer. For example, a Changemancer might do detailing by designing a chandelier to hang from the ceiling. That's definitely what I would expect a Dirtamancer to call a "detail" even if it were a rather crude chandelier, but for a Dollamancer I bet details include stitches so fine that they are barely visible to the naked eye and tiny fractions of inches in perfectly tailoring some raiment. It's all details, but on different scales.

It makes a lot of sense to me that if you wanted highly decorative armor that is both beautiful and functional, then the best way would be a Changemancy/Thinkamancy/Dollamancy link, to combine the skills of the casters that create raiment with the skills of the casters who create armor.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby 0beron » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:56 pm

"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby No one in particular » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:26 pm

In true Magic Kingdom debate style, I'm just going to repeat that I think it's all about size.

Changemancy - DnD sizes "Fine" to "Small"
Dollamancy - "Tiny" to "Large"
Dirtamancy - "Medium" to "Gargantuan"

Changemancers can modify and create from nothing, but only small things (clothes, weapons, tools)
Dollamancers can only modify existing materials, but from hand-held (pew pew!) up to Heavy Mount size (LFNs & Tchotchkes)
Dirtamancers can only modify existing materials, but from Heavy unit (golems) up to City size.

If you modify a tiny thing, it's not Dirtamancy. If you modify a City, it's not Changemancy.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lilwik » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:45 pm

No one in particular wrote:Dollamancers can only modify existing materials, but from hand-held (pew pew!) up to Heavy Mount size (LFNs & Tchotchkes)
Dirtamancers can only modify existing materials, but from Heavy unit (golems) up to City size.
When you say it like that, it sounds unlikely. Surely Dirtamancy should have more in common with Changemancy than Dollamancy. We know that Dirtamancy can build cities, but we can only guess if they do that by modifying existing material or by making the city appear out of nothing. Since we know that Changemancy can make things appear out of nothing and both Dirtamancy and Changemancy is Stuffamancy, surely it makes more sense to guess that the city appears out of nothing, or at least some of it does in some situations.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:21 pm

I'm going to restate my theory in the Digdoug 3 thread. Change can create clothes because it makes a "change of clothing" so you can "change into something more comfortable."

And Dollamancy can make small gears because of "wind up dolls" and architecture/furniture because of "doll houses." Sorry.

Seriously though, Changemancers probably can convert juice/energy into matter and transmute Stuff because it's atomic/alchemy magic.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby No one in particular » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:32 pm

Lilwik wrote:When you say it like that, it sounds unlikely. Surely Dirtamancy should have more in common with Changemancy than Dollamancy. We know that Dirtamancy can build cities, but we can only guess if they do that by modifying existing material or by making the city appear out of nothing. Since we know that Changemancy can make things appear out of nothing and both Dirtamancy and Changemancy is Stuffamancy, surely it makes more sense to guess that the city appears out of nothing, or at least some of it does in some situations.

Do we know that Dirtamancers can create cities? For some reason, I seem to recall that they can only claim/rebuild ruins, and not just set up new settlements just anywhere. (Can't seem to find a specific line... damn it, wiki, citations! Citations!!)

And why does it make more sense to assume that the City appears out of nowhere? I mean, a certain amount of it does, (Natural moneymancy, popping, etc) but that's just adding to the foundation that's already there, modification.

(as always, is willing to concede any point if given cited evidence)
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:31 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I'm going to restate my theory in the Digdoug 3 thread. Change can create clothes because it makes a "change of clothing" so you can "change into something more comfortable."

And Dollamancy can make small gears because of "wind up dolls" and architecture/furniture because of "doll houses." Sorry.

Seriously though, Changemancers probably can convert juice/energy into matter and transmute Stuff because it's atomic/alchemy magic.


I like this. In stupid world terms, Changemancers might be considered alchemists. Dollamancers are enchanters.


These might be base templates, but then the puns of erfworld take over. Dollamancers probably cannot create hats, just becase only hat magicians can, even though it doesn't make sense that a class that is based on conjuration can make an item that detects foolmancy. It is all about puns.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lilwik » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:53 pm

No one in particular wrote:Do we know that Dirtamancers can create cities?
Technically we don't know that, but we have plenty of suggestive evidence. We've seen Digdoug building plenty of stuff, so it's hard to imagine why he wouldn't be able to start building from scratch in the same way. We also have Summer Update 25 where Sizemore explains that a Dirtamancer will both reduce the cost of building a city and control how the city is built, which sounds to me a lot like the Dirtamancer is actually doing the building. (With a boost from Natural Moneymancy, of course.)

No one in particular wrote:For some reason, I seem to recall that they can only claim/rebuild ruins, and not just set up new settlements just anywhere.
I've always assumed that it is impossible to build a city anywhere other than a city site. We certainly know that you can't build a capital anywhere other than a capital site, otherwise Faq would have had no reason to search so hard for a place to flee to. On the other hand, we know buildings can be built anywhere, such as the Magic Kingdom, but I expect no matter how many you build it would never technically be a city if it weren't on a city site, and so it wouldn't produce units or shmuckers.

No one in particular wrote:And why does it make more sense to assume that the City appears out of nowhere?
It doesn't really, but it makes even less sense to assume that Dirtamancers are incapable of making stuff appear out of nowhere since we know so little about how Dirtamancers build things, and Dirtamancy would be the only brand of Stuffamancy that was incapable of making stuff appear out of nowhere. I'm just saying let's not jump to the conclusion that Dirtamancy can't ever make stuff appear.

Another reference that might be relevant: Summer Update 1 which actually describes Gobwin Knob being rebuilt.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:44 pm

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Dollamancers probably cannot create hats, just becase only hat magicians can

First Intermission 25:
"Well, it's Dollamancy, Lord," said Maggie, looking up at him. The brim of her pith helmet shaded her eyes, but little dots of sunlight from the breathing holes in it danced around on her cheeks. "This particular 'outfit'... I would call it 'raiment'... came from the Magic Kingdom. The helm was made by one of our new Twolls."

"Yeah, how do Twolls do that? Bogroll made my armor, and he put the sword together. This new guy Zhopa just made me a picnic basket." He lifted up the basket, which was solidly holding together.

"Twolls have the 'fabrication' special, which is a form of natural Dollamancy. Units with that ability can make small nonmagical items, usually armor and equipment. I understand that the next Twoll we pop will be assigned to the stables as a smith and saddlemaker."
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby No one in particular » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:43 am

Lilwik: to clarify, when I asked if Dirtamancers could create cities, I meant from scratch, from absolutely no existing base. We've seen that Dirtamancers can modify, can enhance, can change cities and their environment from nothing but Juice and Shmuckers. (Intermission 1, IPTSF 20, LIAB 57) I didn't mean to sound like I was arguing that point.

As for Dirtamancers being the "only brand of Stuffamancy that was incapable of making stuff appear"... they're not. Dollamancers can't create from nothing either.
Changemancers are the odd ones out, as the only ones who can create stuff from nothing.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby mortissimus » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:44 am

I don't know if it has been stated outright that you can't build a new city unless you have one to begin with (or the ruins of one). However, given the theme and the importance of cities, combined with never hearing about the foundation of a new city, I think it is a safe bet that you can't. Unless some tri-mancer link can change the hex type.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lilwik » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:52 am

No one in particular wrote:As for Dirtamancers being the "only brand of Stuffamancy that was incapable of making stuff appear"... they're not. Dollamancers can't create from nothing either.
I agree that Dollamancers probably can't conjure stuff. No one has actually said so in the story, but what little evidence we have all seems to point that way, and if Dollamancy could conjure things we'd be in terrible trouble trying to figure out the difference between Dollamancy and Changemancy. Aside from that, you're making it sound like Dollamancy is a kind of Stuffamancy, so I think it's worth mentioning that Dollamancy is actually Spookism.

No one in particular wrote:Changemancers are the odd ones out, as the only ones who can create stuff from nothing.
Dittomancy also makes stuff out of nothing. Most famously, Lloyd created a copy of King Slately while high in the air, far from any apparent source of raw material. Every time we've seen Dittomancy it seems to be duplicates appearing out of nothing.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby 0beron » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:11 am

I'm like 99% sure it has been stated somewhere that there are city site hexes. You can't build a city in just any hex you please.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby No one in particular » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:11 am

Lilwik wrote:
No one in particular wrote:As for Dirtamancers being the "only brand of Stuffamancy that was incapable of making stuff appear"... they're not. Dollamancers can't create from nothing either.
I agree that Dollamancers probably can't conjure stuff. No one has actually said so in the story, but what little evidence we have all seems to point that way, and if Dollamancy could conjure things we'd be in terrible trouble trying to figure out the difference between Dollamancy and Changemancy. Aside from that, you're making it sound like Dollamancy is a kind of Stuffamancy, so I think it's worth mentioning that Dollamancy is actually Spookism.

No one in particular wrote:Changemancers are the odd ones out, as the only ones who can create stuff from nothing.
Dittomancy also makes stuff out of nothing. Most famously, Lloyd created a copy of King Slately while high in the air, far from any apparent source of raw material. Every time we've seen Dittomancy it seems to be duplicates appearing out of nothing.


Whoa! Dunno how I missed that. That's a pretty flawed base I was working from... :oops:

*starts muttering and trying to rework everything, from a base of people/places/things now...*
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lipkin » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:52 am

0beron wrote:I'm like 99% sure it has been stated somewhere that there are city site hexes. You can't build a city in just any hex you please.

Truth.
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