Summer Update 28 Retcon

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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby 0beron » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:52 pm

No need to be hasty No-One, you are still correct.
Lilwik wrote:Dittomancy also makes stuff out of nothing...Every time we've seen Dittomancy it seems to be duplicates appearing out of nothing.
Making a duplicate is not "out of nothing", by very nature of having the something you are copying.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby wih » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:45 pm

0beron wrote:I'm like 99% sure it has been stated somewhere that there are city site hexes. You can't build a city in just any hex you please.


A Dirtamancer in a tri-link has modified a hex type before.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby mortissimus » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:48 pm

wih wrote:
0beron wrote:I'm like 99% sure it has been stated somewhere that there are city site hexes. You can't build a city in just any hex you please.


A Dirtamancer in a tri-link has modified a hex type before.


Yes, that was what I was aiming at.

So could a dirty-ditto trimancer link copy a city (if they have a city to copy)? That would be OP, but links are as a rule game-breaking anyway.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby drachefly » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:46 pm

Also, the ruins terrain type does not imply that the hex is a city site.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby No one in particular » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:56 pm

mortissimus wrote:
wih wrote:
0beron wrote:I'm like 99% sure it has been stated somewhere that there are city site hexes. You can't build a city in just any hex you please.

A Dirtamancer in a tri-link has modified a hex type before.

Yes, that was what I was aiming at.

So could a dirty-ditto trimancer link copy a city (if they have a city to copy)? That would be OP, but links are as a rule game-breaking anyway.

For one thing, the Dirt-Croak link up didn't create the volcano out of nowhere - it brought the already existing structure back to life.

For another, one limit we've seen with Dittomancers is duration. They can copy things out of nowhere... but at the start of the next Turn, they return to nowhere. The Slately-ditto's suicide charge was because he would cease to exist shortly, anyway.

So if you had a Dirt-Ditto link up, maybe you could copy a city... or maybe you'd get a Brigadoon sort of thing, where the City would vanish for 100 Turns the next morning. Or, you know, forever.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:18 am

0beron wrote:
Lilwik wrote:Dittomancy also makes stuff out of nothing...Every time we've seen Dittomancy it seems to be duplicates appearing out of nothing.
Making a duplicate is not "out of nothing", by very nature of having the something you are copying.
In the context of the current discussion, "something from nothing" was not about information/blueprints, but about the source of the building material. The issue is that Changemancers Conjure, converting raw energy into useful substances like the equation E=MC^2. (Or they teleport it or something.) The issue here is that Sizemore implies in the now retconned version that this is a feature thought to be unique to Changemancers, at least in his mind. The question then is whether he has included unfinished products and raw material in this statement too. If he hasn't, then Dirt and Ditto mancers are able to convert raw energy into useful matter, they just can't do it using schematics inside their own imagination the way a Changemancer can. If he has though, it begs some questions. Like where does Sizmore get his building materials? And what is a clone made of? (Keep in mind that when the clone dies, it doesn't just unpop. It "poofs" into a grey cloud.)
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby 0beron » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:20 am

Sizemore's materials all begin from earthy raw materials. Whether he explicitly describes it as such, every spell we've seen him cast had a raw material present to work with.

The most controversial example is the MK tunnel, with people suggesting that because the update didn't specify, we can assume that he just conjured wood beams out of nothing. However this is an illogical assumption, given that he has now said conjuring is unique to Change, and the fact that he was clearing out the earth, the most logical union of those 2 facts is that he transformed said dirt into beams and lights and whitewash.

On a related note, I just realized we are kind of looking at things the wrong way when it comes to cities and what Maggie/Sizemore did. City-building is actually stated to be Natural Moneymancy. So in light of that, combined with Digdoug's recent tone about architecture and city-builders "knowing what they're doing", I don't think Sizemore/Maggie were technically building the city. They were simply directing the natural process using Sizemore's knowledge of structure and Maggie's mental organization/focus.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lilwik » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:18 pm

0beron wrote:However this is an illogical assumption, given that he has now said conjuring is unique to Change, and the fact that he was clearing out the earth, the most logical union of those 2 facts is that he transformed said dirt into beams and lights and whitewash.
Sizemore never said that conjuring is unique to Changemancy. The closest that Sizemore came was saying that Changemancy did conjuring, which doesn't do anything like imply that Changemancy is the only discipline that can do conjuring. We already know that Dittomancy and Hat Magic can also do conjuring.

0beron wrote:I don't think Sizemore/Maggie were technically building the city. They were simply directing the natural process using Sizemore's knowledge of structure and Maggie's mental organization/focus.
That's a pretty fine distinction. The Dirtamancer reduces the cost of upgrading the city "a lot", so probably doesn't reduce it to zero, so Moneymancy must still be helping somehow. The Moneymancy is probably what allows the city to upgrade all at once in a flash of magic rather than bit-by-bit as we usually see Dirtamancers working. On the other hand, with all the various things we've seen Dirtamancy do, it's hard to imagine what could prevent a Dirtamancer from building up a city one building at time through pure Dirtamancy. I guess it would just require a large amount of juice and probably several turns.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:36 pm

I wouldn't call ditomancy conjuring exactly. Its effects (like most classes in the numbers axis) are temporary. At most I would say it holds some forces together to act like an object for a short while, until it dissipates.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:06 am

^that.

Also, as I said, it is quite simply ridiculous to assume that Sizemore was conjuring out of nothing for the tunnel when we know he had raw material to work with in the first place. It is inventing an explanation where none is needed. Further, if Dirt and Ditto did indeed conjure, Sizemore would have said Stuffamancy rather than Changemancy in SU 28. But wait....what's that you say? Rob specifically made a point of going back to make him NOT say Stuffamancy instead...? Looks to me like we have our answer folks, though I'm sure laughable attempts to claim otherwise will continue.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Omnimancer » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:09 pm

I think something to keep in mind is that casters can use magic outside of their discipline, but their ability to do so varies by individual. So Dollamancy might not be able to create raw materials like fabric, but some Dollamancers might be able to use changeamancy to summon stuff if absolutely necessary. This may be an ineffective use of juice though, and result in lower quality or fewer materials than a true changeamancer could create. And some Dollamancers might have no changeamancy skill at all, and those do need existing materials to work with.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lilwik » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:29 pm

0beron wrote:Further, if Dirt and Ditto did indeed conjure, Sizemore would have said Stuffamancy rather than Changemancy in SU 28.
Why should he have said Stuffamancy when the topic of conversation was clearly Changemancy? Parson asked about making a magic blanket and Sizemore explained about Changemancy because clearly that's the discipline for making a magic blanket. If Parson had asked, "How can Stuff be conjured out of thin air?" and then we saw Sizemore start talking about Changemancy, then we might be able to draw a conclusion about what disciplines can conjure stuff.

There's no real doubt that Dittomancy can conjure stuff, since we've seen it happen more than once. Perhaps the word "conjure" is technically incorrect, but that doesn't change what we've seen: stuff appearing out of thin air. So all we're really discussing is semantics if we talk about whether Dittomancy can conjure. I know of no proof that Dirtamancy can also conjure, but if it can't then Dirtamancy would be the only brand of Stuffamancy that can't, and the way Digdoug builds things for Weatherbug doesn't sound like he's worried about raw materials. I can't see anything that suggests that Dirtamancy can't conjure things. Every page of Digdoug is another chance for us to hear some suggestion that raw materials are required for Dirtamancy, so maybe we'll see soon.

0beron wrote:But wait....what's that you say? Rob specifically made a point of going back to make him NOT say Stuffamancy instead...?
We can't know exactly why Rob did that, so I don't see how we can draw any conclusions from it. It's safer to stick to drawing conclusions from the story as it is written. Trying to read Rob Balder's mind is too hard.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:46 pm

Honestly, how stubborn can you be? I'm genuinely confused here. Do you just like to pick the minority side of any argument, and continue searching for obscure illogical ways to defend the point until nobody else is left on your side?
Sizemore is specifically talking about Changemancy being the conjuring school.
'what is magic?' and 'what is Matter?' Some casters think they're the same thing, and that Changemancy proves it.
That's not magic items, that's not quibbling about specific applications, that is broad scale. If Dirt and Ditto did it as well, he would say Stuffamancy as a whole proves the "magic=Matter" argument. This isn't reading Rob's mind, it's simply reading the damn words on the page in plain simple Language. Rob made a mistake when he first wrote it, and we are now seeing the corrected version, over FOUR YEARS later, after he's specifically stated he was thinking about it the entire time, and after reading our previous debate recently. You can damn well bet he got it right this time. If you're gonna argue, at least do the rest of us a favor by having even half a leg to stand on.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:02 pm

Here might be another way to think about it, there is a lot of overlap in utility in different classes of magic. For example Rhymamancers can provide combat bonus'. Other schools can do the same thing , such as Dittomancy. Put a Rhymamancer, and a dittomancer together and the bonus' would stack.Both thinkamancers and hat magicians can provide communication. Signamancers and dirtamancers can both improve the utility of cities. Any caster can boost a tower.

So maybe a changemancer can make a magic sword +4 by creating magical metal. And maybe a dollamancer can create a sword + 4 by putting an enchantment over top of the metal. Have them work together, and you get a sword + 8. "Bonus' on top of bonus" as Parson would say. There are many things a changemancer can do that a dollamancer can't and vice versa, but why can't there be some areas where their magic has the same utility? Creating magical swords for a commander may be one.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lilwik » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:38 pm

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Here might be another way to think about it, there is a lot of overlap in utility in different classes of magic.
Is there really? It always seems that the opposite is true in my reading of the story.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:For example Rhymamancers can provide combat bonus'. Other schools can do the same thing , such as Dittomancy.
Dittomancy seems more concerned with duplicating things than giving bonuses. If we want to find magic that overlaps Rhyme-o-mancy, then I would have chosen Luckamancy since those are the only two that clearly seem to give bonuses. Rhyme-o-mancy is described in Book 0, Episode 18. Luckamancy is described in Book 0, Episode 7 and Episode 8. Looking at their descriptions, there seems to be a difference: one boosts luck, and the other boosts morale and focus. That might be a meaningless difference, but it also might be important. I'd like to see more examples of Luckamancy in action before I decide.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Both thinkamancers and hat magicians can provide communication.
Thinkamancers and Hat Magicians provide very different kinds of communication. With Hat Magic you don't get to talk to the person you are messaging, and you don't even need a Hat Magician. For two ways to communicate across distances, it's hard to imagine less overlap.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Signamancers and dirtamancers can both improve the utility of cities.
Do Signamancers really do that? The abilities of Signamancers are still a bit of a mystery to me. I vaguely remember something like that being said in Book 0 about Labeler, but I can't remember where. The amount of overlap depends heavily on what exactly the Signamancer does.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Any caster can boost a tower.
Putting spells on a tower, casting Hoboken, making power balls, and going to the Magic Kingdom are all things that casters can do in general. There are certainly places where all disciplines overlap, but each discipline also seems to have specialties that tend to not overlap with the specialties of other disciplines.

Sir_Dr_D wrote:There are many things a changemancer can do that a dollamancer can't and vice versa, but why can't there be some areas where their magic has the same utility?
We certainly don't know enough about Changemancy to say that it is impossible. I wouldn't mind seeing more of Dollamancy too. I just think that there seems to be a pattern of disciplines not overlapping when you look at their abilities in detail, so I suspect that when we learn more details of Changemancy and Dollamancy there's a good chance that we will discover that they don't actually overlap as much as they seem to overlap now.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby No one in particular » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:37 pm

In terms of end results there is a fair bit of overlap between the classes, but the methods are unique.


Some skills are undeniably unique to certain disciplines, and not every discipline can be substituted for any other... but there IS some overlap.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Lilwik » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:15 pm

No one in particular wrote:Need golems? We've got Dollamancers or Dirtamancers (cloth & glass vs rock & crap).
Dollamancy golems and Dirtamancy golems are different types of units and I expect they have different strengths and weaknesses.
No one in particular wrote:Need some immediate, temporary units? We've got Dittomancers or Croakamancers
Both the outcomes and requirements are different, since Dittomancy requires living units to copy and Croakamancy requires croaked units. They seem to have more differences than they have commonalities.
No one in particular wrote:Need to mess around with the rules? Weirdomancers or Carnies. (give/take a flying special vs keeping a unit alive against all odds)
I don't see any connection between those two things, and certainly no overlap.
No one in particular wrote:Need some small items conjured? Changemancers or Hat Magicians.
I agree, that's a pretty solid overlap. Hat Magic seems to be a bit of a do-anything magic, so long as it involves hats. I expect that appearance is misleading and there are actually rules for Hat Magic that we don't yet understand. I hope Cubbins shows up again in the story soon.
No one in particular wrote:Want to know the odds for something? Date-a-mancer or Mathamancer. (a specific pairing vs general comparisons)
That seems like too much of an overlap to believe. We really don't understand Date-a-mancy very well. The best we have is Book 2, Text 11, which is pretty good and absolutely makes it sound like Date-a-mancy calculates combat odds, but that's exactly what Mathamancy does. Surely Date-a-mancy can't be merely a limited form of Mathamancy; that would mean that Mathamancy is clearly better than Date-a-mancy. At the moment I can't think of what Date-a-mancy might do to keep it from being underpowered, but I'd be surprised if there weren't something, and maybe when we know that the apparent overlap will disappear.
No one in particular wrote:Want to upgrade your City? Dirtamancers or Moneymancers.
One costs shmuckers and the other doesn't, which is a pretty huge difference if you care about shmuckers. Also, one requires a caster to walk around the city over several turns and the other seems to be instant.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby No one in particular » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:35 pm

Did you miss the part where I said " in terms of end results there is a fair bit of overlap between the classes, but the methods are unique"?

I'm not saying disciplines can do the exact same things, but you can get the same general results in a number of different ways.

Like, okay, consider siege or tunneling...

You're laying siege to a City. You can use:
    Cloth golems, like Battle Bears
    Certain animals, like Dwagons or Weiner-Rammers
    Siege Engines, like Towers & Diggers
You want to dig a tunnel and work a mine. You can use:
    Gobwins
    Marbits
    Dirtamancers
    Diggers

These are all very different solutions to the same problems, and each unit has limitations and bonuses the others don't... but they all accomplish the same things. A battle bear golem can't fly or use sonic breath, but it's easier to make for any side with a Dollamancer, and easier to maintain. A Dirtamancer can instantly create a Tunnel, but is limited by their Juice, while a single Marbit can become a horde if you give it enough shmuckers.

Just to repeat and clarify, the overlap in classes is not HOW they do things, it's WHAT they can get done.
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby 0beron » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:08 am

I'm gonna assume he did his usual "We'll you may be right, and you have a point...but I'm still right" style of argument. Frustrating to deal with huh?
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Re: Summer Update 28 Retcon

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:43 am

I agree Kettle, The Pot is extremely black indeed.

No one in particular wrote:You want to dig a tunnel and work a mine. You can use:
    Gobwins
    Marbits
    Dirtamancers
    Diggers

These are all very different solutions to the same problems,
That's a terrible example. Those aren't different at all. What the hell? A better example would be trying to hide, using tunnels, veils, and cover from the trees. They all work different, but achieve the same end of keeping your forces out of sight. And the counter to each is different too. What the fuck? Marbits, Diggers, and Gobwins are not examples of achieving the same goal by different ends.
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