What Caster Type would you want?

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:37 pm

Wouldn't that only happen if you read it wrong?
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Lipkin » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:32 pm

Honestly, I've only seen Evil Dead 2, and it was just the one time. And it was a while ago.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Lamech » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:19 pm

Naw that wouldn't make any sense. All corpses in the hex would be possessed with Elder Beings from beyond reality. The corpses would have better points than they had in life, and be part of the Elder Being side, not barbarians. Also the caster would switch sides to, and gain Eldermancy. When they reached a high enough class they could summon actual units of the Elder Being side.

...

Okay, I took that way to seriously.But you could probably do something like making a croakanomicon that teaches dark magics. (According to a rumor, Rob said with a sign-think-X link you can make books on magic type X for other casters to learn. See the utter brokenness?)
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:47 pm

Lipkin wrote:Honestly, I've only seen Evil Dead 2, and it was just the one time. And it was a while ago.

God, I've seen them all, and I can't remember either. I think in order to pick it up in the 3rd movie you had to give the line from "The Day the Earth Stood Still" but that's all I really remember.

Lamech wrote:On Croakamancy: It was used in the croakamancy box. It obviously DOES have other uses besides uncroaked. Wanda is just crap. She's basically doing stuff she could do as a novice. She's regressed even because she no longer seems to fiddle with hat magic and the like.
I don't know if she's crap... Looking at the ages of the Great Minds, it seems an 18 year old royal caster is only a level 6 Adept, but a non-royal 8 year old is a Master. Plus We don't know how old Wanda is, or how going up a class works in terms of gaining new powers. If it turns out you don't auto learn all spells at class increase, and Wanda is only like 3 years old, then being able to dance might be enough to count as a Master without having had time for her to learn other Master spells and powers.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Lipkin » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:46 am

You know, if having a Signmancer link with another class allowed them to create spell books to teach that class, and the spell book could be used off class, a properly motivated and funded Signamancer could break the caste(r) system.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Lamech » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:01 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
Lamech wrote:On Croakamancy: It was used in the croakamancy box. It obviously DOES have other uses besides uncroaked. Wanda is just crap. She's basically doing stuff she could do as a novice. She's regressed even because she no longer seems to fiddle with hat magic and the like.
I don't know if she's crap... Looking at the ages of the Great Minds, it seems an 18 year old royal caster is only a level 6 Adept, but a non-royal 8 year old is a Master. Plus We don't know how old Wanda is, or how going up a class works in terms of gaining new powers. If it turns out you don't auto learn all spells at class increase, and Wanda is only like 3 years old, then being able to dance might be enough to count as a Master without having had time for her to learn other Master spells and powers.
I'm not saying she is unskilled. I'm saying she doesn't use her skill. We have SEEN her demonstrate abilities in croakamancy other than the uncroaked, but she hasn't used them except in book 0. We have seen her demonstrate her ability in other classes, but again she only uses them in book 0. We full well know she has the ability to do more than she has shown in books 1-2. That means that we can't look at Wanda the croakamancer and conclude that croakamancy is limited. Wanda has chosen to only perform a limited range of her magic. We know she can do more, so we can't use her to find the limit of croakamancers.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:21 pm

Date-a-amancer
It would be awesome way to troll the other side, I imagine the enemy taking a low level city and their most powerfull warlord maybe even the CW finding a personalised note "X doesn't love you actually he/she is sleeping with your second in command Warlord Y behind your back" and then watching as the enemy offensive is slowed or even stopped by the leadership corp fighting among themselves.

Also I assume they can do data minning and other things due to the pun.

Healomancer

If date-amancers are the didn't see that comming caster used for special tactics the Healomancer would be general support just assuring my side will come out of every fight better than the a side which doesn't have healing. Plus I get the impression they could do a lot of life sciences stuff even if they share it with florists and signamancers.

Need not apply


None, or to be less vague if you're a caster and popped/want to join come on down no caster (even if she/he is level 1 with 0 xp) will be turned away, we will fit you into the strategy or adapt the strategy to play off your strengths.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Lilwik » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:38 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote:Also I assume they can do data mining and other things due to the pun.
Puns are the most flimsy evidence I can imagine for anything, and I'm not sure what data mining would mean in Erfworld, but still I think you're right. I expect Date-a-mancers work with data, but not because of the pun. My reason for thinking it is because Date-a-mancy is on the Numbers axis and I extrapolate from other disciplines on the Numbers axis. With Mathamancy, Foolamancy, and Dittomancy there's a clear tendency to form deep understandings of things and construct simulations. So I expect that all Numbers disciplines work with data in one way or another. I expect that Date-a-mancy is the magic of studying people's emotions and how they would react in various situations. Surely that means constructing detailed profiles for people and then making comparisons between profiles to check for compatibility.

Prodigial_Knight wrote:Plus I get the impression they could do a lot of life sciences stuff even if they share it with florists and signamancers.
I seriously doubt it. Healomancers don't have the Life element. Remember how much Betsy depended upon Charlie when they were messing up Jillian's head in Book 0, Episode 81. Olive would probably say that a Healomancer couldn't understand Life. I expect that Healomancers are very good at knowing how a person or thing should be and restoring proper functioning, but I have serious doubts about the abilities of Healomancers beyond that in the area of Life. We might guess that a Healomancer could engineer a germ, since Healomancers are like doctors, but I don't think so. Like poisons, I expect that germs require Flower Power. Instead, I expect that Healomancers can probably heal nonliving units like golems and uncroaked and maybe even repair damaged machines.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Whispri » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:22 am

1. A Croakamancer, I'm sure there's more to it than uncroaking (like frogs, crows, toads and ravens) and even with zombies alone they're very strong on the offensive. And frankly I'd much rather send Uncroaked into battle than people. Plus they can potentially learn Shockmancy.

2. A Shockmancer, as they seem the best form of air defence available. There's a lot to be said for a mage who's just very good at blowing things up.

3. A Florist, for Plants vs Zombies related reasons. Also, there might be things like the Nut Troops, Nut Archers and Nut Mages from BoF III.

Tri-casting, undead plants would have Olive spinning in her hell. :) Maybe some PvZ enhancements(like the one that sets the peas on fire)... Uncroaked with shocking abilities... Ooh and Yellow Musk Zombies perhaps?

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:But Wanda and Sylvia are going to walk their path regardless, so why do they need a predictamancer? It certainly didn't help Goodminton.
But we know that it could have helped Goodminton.

I'll stop you right there, as we know nothing of the sort. We know an utterly untrustworthy Predictamancer was a liability. But we also know they were fighting five sides including Haffaton (which is almost certainly the cause of Delphie's corruption), who by that point must have been controlling at least four capital sites(and that's without considering that they had a hand in exterminating the rest of the Croatan Tribe.). The best a Predictamancer could have done is tell them how they were going to die. That Delphie wouldn't even do that much for the Side she claimed to serve doesn't mean a hypothetical loyal and competent Predictamancer could actually have done anything to help them.

As for Parson, he's called his Side's very powerful and experienced Chief Caster crazy purely because he doesn't like what she has to say about Fate Magic, he's even wasted resources on those grounds. I don't really see a Predictamancer being of much use to him.

Lamech wrote:On Croakamancy: It was used in the croakamancy box. It obviously DOES have other uses besides uncroaked. Wanda is just crap. She's basically doing stuff she could do as a novice. She's regressed even because she no longer seems to fiddle with hat magic and the like.

It's true that we've only seen Wanda do zombies.. but... we've seen her serve four Sides, at Goodminton she was, as you noted, an untrained novice, not even fifty turns old. At Haffaton she served a Side desperate for cheap Units and her Chief Caster (who she hated and wanted to die) was known to loathe Croakamancy and treat magic other than Life Magic with complete contempt(and she was mostly shown interacting with Gillian in any case). The monsters of Faq hated her and her magic (I wouldn't be surprised if those Gwiffon-Boopers are why she no longer has interest in non-Croakamantic Sorceries). At TBfGK Ansom had hacked his way through Gobwin Knob's armies, they had almost nothing left. We are, after all, talking about a scenario in which no living Warlords remained.

In those situations, what advantage is there to using Croakamancy to its fullest? At Goodminton she couldn't, at Haffaton it would have been... courageous. At Faq there was no point. While at Gobwin Knob it was too late to make a difference, anything she could do, she had already done. And in all those situations, we must remember that... well she didn't cast a single spell on screen during Book 2. But is that because she's stopped using magic altogether, or because there was no opportunity to profit by doing so?
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:15 am

Whispri wrote:I'll stop you right there, as we know nothing of the sort.
Perhaps I overstated it. We know that Goodminton had driven off both Quisling and Frenemy, which suggests those two sides won't be a problem in the near future. We know that Predictamancy gave Goodminton a treaty with Haffaton that would have protected Goodminton from Haffaton. That accounts for three of Goodminton's five enemies, and most importantly it totally removes all threat from the side that actually did destroy Goodminton. I acknowledge that neither Quisling nor Frenemy were decisely neutralized, and we have no idea about the situation with the two unnamed enemy sides, so nothing is really guaranteed except that Goodminton would have survived for one more turn than it did.

Whispri wrote:The best a Predictamancer could have done is tell them how they were going to die.
Delphie got Goodminton the treaty that would have saved Goodminton from Haffaton. We have no way of knowing what her next trick would have been. We may not be able to say for certain that Goodminton would have survived, but we also can't be sure that it would have been destroyed.

Whispri wrote:As for Parson, he's called his Side's very powerful and experienced Chief Caster crazy purely because he doesn't like what she has to say about Fate Magic, he's even wasted resources on those grounds. I don't really see a Predictamancer being of much use to him.
I'm pretty sure that Wanda is crazy. She's not a Predictamancer. I expect that Parson would trust a Predictamancer far more on the subject of Fate. On the other hand, it might be difficult for Parson to figure out how to work magical foreknowledge of events into his planning since he has no experience with that sort of thing from his Stupidworld games.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:41 am

Lilwik wrote:I'm pretty sure that Wanda is crazy.
What has she done or said that makes you believe she's crazy? Not irrational or irritable, but actually insane, psychotic or delusional?
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:33 am

Shai_hulud wrote:What has she done or said that makes you believe she's crazy? Not irrational or irritable, but actually insane, psychotic or delusional?
She destroyed Faq, for one. She did it because she was given a Prediction that she would attune to an Arkentool, which is a terrible reason, but it's good enough for Wanda because she is nuts about Fate. I don't think she's ever gotten over her role in the death of Tommy and the destruction of Goodminton. She went straight from that into Haffaton and the heroine buds, hardly a good place for psychological healing.

Now she thinks she can't die because Fate has a plan for her. She won't even have Jack use a small spell to make her less vulnerable to archers. This is why Parson calls her crazy in Book 2, Page 36, and I agree that it's behaving like a crazy person. Does Wanda actually have a Prediction in mind that guarantees her survival? I don't know, but I don't think it matters. She would believe that Fate has some sort of plan for her no matter what because she is obsessed with Fate.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:02 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Prodigial_Knight wrote:Plus I get the impression they could do a lot of life sciences stuff even if they share it with florists and signamancers.
I seriously doubt it. Healomancers don't have the Life element. Remember how much Betsy depended upon Charlie when they were messing up Jillian's head in Book 0, Episode 81. Olive would probably say that a Healomancer couldn't understand Life. I expect that Healomancers are very good at knowing how a person or thing should be and restoring proper functioning, but I have serious doubts about the abilities of Healomancers beyond that in the area of Life. We might guess that a Healomancer could engineer a germ, since Healomancers are like doctors, but I don't think so. Like poisons, I expect that germs require Flower Power. Instead, I expect that Healomancers can probably heal nonliving units like golems and uncroaked and maybe even repair damaged machines.


This is just speculation but I see the potential for overlap like so:
Healomancer/Florist:
  • Both can neutralise poison
  • A HM could tell you how the poison affected the boy but not more, a Florist could tell you the whole story probably even narow the incredients down so much that you have a clear candidate for the poissoner ("Only Jetstone has acces to both the type of marsh hex, mountain hex and river hex you would find the incredients within.")
  • A Florist obviously can produce poissons while a HM can't

Healomancer/Thinkamancer
  • That little spell Maggie did to restore Parson's mental stamina, I bet a HM has a equivalent albeit with a different incantation
  • I agree that for psihology a TM is better but a TM/HM link up would be the best

Healomancer/Croackamancer
  • I think a HM's magic sense would be most simmilar to a CM's magic sense except it would work on the living
  • A CM would be able to produce a state of the art autopsy, but an HM I believe could give insights into what the deceased did while alive ("Aha studying the color(???) of the patients stomach it seems he lived on a diet of mostly fish obviously this unkown soldier comes from a powerfull naval side)
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby 0beron » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:12 pm

My take on the Clevermancy school is that rather than being an absence of Elements, it is actually raw energy that is untempered by Elements. They all deal in basal, intangible forces/materials in Erfworld; Luck, Hits/Status, and Schmuckers. A unit isn't alive just because it has Hits though. If Life covered everything involved in literally keeping your body functioning, then Hocus Pocus, Eyemancy, Hippiemancy, and Stagemancy should all be able to restore Hits, but they don't. What the Life Element seems to deal in is all the other stuff. Hocus Pocus is pure Life, and it deals with things units DO while they're alive, Eyemancy deals with the things they percieve while alive, and Hippiemancy deals in the things they feel or are (generalizing with these, but you get the idea).

Healomancers definitely seem to understand how bodies work, making them suited to "life sciences" type study, but they don't understand what really makes a unit "alive". To make a poor stupid-world analogy, it's almost like a doctor versus a priest/philosopher.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby DarcDiscordia » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:42 am

Carnymancer. All day, every day. The ability to not only manipulate the rules surrounding units and what they can and can't do, but also manipulate Fate? Yes, please. Combine that with a Luckamancer, and you could rig damn near anything to go the way you wanted. Imagine a Carnymancer/Luckamancer/Thinkamancer linkup. It'd be downright terrifying.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby khamul » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:16 am

Datemancer, Florist, Lookamanacer if I can get one extra.

Go for a Squashcourt alliance play, looking not for growth but long-term stability.

Florist to be able to guarantee peaceful negotiation, Datemancer to be able to come out of negotiation with stable and workable relationships. Lookamancer to keep an eye outside the borders of the alliance (and an eye on alliance members), providing the time needed to respond to any threat.
Hat magician probably preferred over Thinkamancer for comms - but probably hire a hat magician as needed to create hats, rather than the running cost of having one. Keeping upkeep under control is probably crucial to the strategy.

While the aim is to avoid combat, Datemancer is probably valuable there as well: didn't Jillian have one? Duncan?
Use Datemancer to find the optimum pairing of warlords with troop stacks, and to match up friendly and alliance stacks with enemy stacks: paired with Lookamancer, this can be done strategically as well as tactically - so the enemy always finds themselves facing the worst possible combination of unit types for their army build. Think I'd take that over some luck rebalancing any day.

Could argue that an alliance strategy needs a signmancer for contracts more than a datemancer. Different approach: if both sides are genuinely into the alliance, then you don't need a tight contract, because no-one's trying to break it...
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby khamul » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:38 am

Oooh, ooh, another one.

Croakamancer, Moneymancer, Findamancer. Again, Hat Magician, because we don't need a link-up (too risky).

We know units can mine to find gems. Presumably, they can perform other tasks to generate income - and presumably, generally, the cost of the upkeep of units doing this is more than the value you get by doing it, as all Erfworld seems stacked against peaceful solutions.

So you use the Uncroaked to scavenge for income. They're rubbish in combat but zero upkeep (is this correct? We know decrypted are zero upkeep). Use Findamancer to find gems or any other resource you can throw your uncroaked at, and a moneymancer to maximise the returns (or Dittomancer?).

Take all that income, and pour it into a great big army. Keep the army in combat as much as possible, so there's a steady stream of bodies (coming through an oversized hat?) for the croakmancer to animate and stuff into the mines (or wherever). Pump the income into more army. Mercenary Barbarians might be a good strategy.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby thegoofromspace » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:56 am

DarcDiscordia wrote:Imagine a Carnymancer/Luckamancer/Thinkamancer linkup. It'd be downright terrifying.


You know what else might be interesting, in the same vein? Carnymancer/Weirdomancer/Thinkamancer link-up. We don't know much about Weirdomancy, but we know it involves changing unit specials. Change the special for a unit and break the rules for that special for maximum game-breaking potential. This may not even require a link-up!
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:53 pm

khamul wrote:... presumably, generally, the cost of the upkeep of units doing this is more than the value you get by doing it, as all Erfworld seems stacked against peaceful solutions.
If this were true, how could tribes of natural allies survive in the wild?
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:00 pm

0beron wrote:My take on the Clevermancy school is that rather than being an absence of Elements, it is actually raw energy that is untempered by Elements. They all deal in basal, intangible forces/materials in Erfworld; Luck, Hits/Status, and Schmuckers. A unit isn't alive just because it has Hits though. If Life covered everything involved in literally keeping your body functioning, then Hocus Pocus, Eyemancy, Hippiemancy, and Stagemancy should all be able to restore Hits, but they don't. What the Life Element seems to deal in is all the other stuff. Hocus Pocus is pure Life, and it deals with things units DO while they're alive, Eyemancy deals with the things they percieve while alive, and Hippiemancy deals in the things they feel or are (generalizing with these, but you get the idea).

Healomancers definitely seem to understand how bodies work, making them suited to "life sciences" type study, but they don't understand what really makes a unit "alive". To make a poor stupid-world analogy, it's almost like a doctor versus a priest/philosopher.


What did the Hippiemancer say to the Healomancer (who was busy studying books on anatomy and etc) ?

"Get a Life!"

I really like you take on the whole absence of elements in Clevermancy, I agree that in some ways all units have natural clevermancy abilities (from a certain point of view) they have natural healomancy in that they heal up to full at the end of turn, natural moneymancy in that they deduct schumckers for upkeep every turn (really stretching it here) and natural luckmancy (prety bovious imho).

As persons I think your stereotipical Clevermancer would see himself as a MacGuyver type of person taking pride that she/he doesn't need to work with any element but raw juice.

Shai_hulud wrote:
khamul wrote:... presumably, generally, the cost of the upkeep of units doing this is more than the value you get by doing it, as all Erfworld seems stacked against peaceful solutions.
If this were true, how could tribes of natural allies survive in the wild?


I'm kind of expecting an tragedy twist like every side can sustain itself peacefully but the rules are rigged so that when one side decides to go conquerring it would almost certainetly take over it's neighbours before the others can put it down.

So then peace comes down to wether you trust the others not to be greedy conquerors or paranoid warmongers and nobody trust the others so everybody is just racing towards building armies because every single ruler believe it's useless to fight the temptation (of military build up) because everybody else surely has falen to it.
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