What Caster Type would you want?

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Lamech » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:14 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote:I'm kind of expecting an tragedy twist like every side can sustain itself peacefully but the rules are rigged so that when one side decides to go conquerring it would almost certainetly take over it's neighbours before the others can put it down.

So then peace comes down to wether you trust the others not to be greedy conquerors or paranoid warmongers and nobody trust the others so everybody is just racing towards building armies because every single ruler believe it's useless to fight the temptation (of military build up) because everybody else surely has falen to it.
This seems like it. Remember that alliance in the first bonus chapters? They could work peacefully when they weren't being invaded. I've also noted the farming that is so common in Homekey. Even in the capital. I think your right that its just not the preferred way. Those cities are just so tempting, and if you are the stronger one... or if you can launch a good first strike. And royals sides seem to turn up their nose at that sort of stuff. Case in point: Delkey thinking the cabbages are silly, and Slately complaining that he needed his units to forage.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby LiquidBlue » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:30 pm

1) Datemancer - Not much has been revealed about these casters. But by the description, it seems possible that a double or triple-caster link that involved one might be easier to unravel as they would be able to help disentangle the joined casters. This would, I think make caster links less risky, especially if we are starting with an inexperienced thinkamancer. I see two big and useful aspects of the discipline itself, improving the cohesiveness and loyalty of one's own side, and as an effective diplomat with other sides.

2) Carnymancer - These guys just look like fun, especially in light of the latest updates. Total speculation time, maybe a thinkamancer-datemancer-carnymancer link could form stacks that do not cap the bonus at 8 units. The stacking bonus already looks light natural thinkamancy, a datemancer deals with the connections between units, and the carnymancer would be there to help get around the eight unit stack. If possible, this would make units exponentially more powerful.

3) Dollamancer - This guys help bulk out the military, but could also give valuable specials to other units.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Godzfirefly » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:40 pm

LiquidBlue wrote:Total speculation time, maybe a thinkamancer-datemancer-carnymancer link could form stacks that do not cap the bonus at 8 units. The stacking bonus already looks light natural thinkamancy, a datemancer deals with the connections between units, and the carnymancer would be there to help get around the eight unit stack. If possible, this would make units exponentially more powerful.


<.<
>.>

Link makes all units in the hex count as in the same stack for 1 Turn while still moving independently, complete with uncapped stack bonus...
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:39 pm

Prodigial_Knight wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:
khamul wrote:... presumably, generally, the cost of the upkeep of units doing this is more than the value you get by doing it, as all Erfworld seems stacked against peaceful solutions.
If this were true, how could tribes of natural allies survive in the wild?


I'm kind of expecting an tragedy twist like every side can sustain itself peacefully but the rules are rigged so that when one side decides to go conquerring it would almost certainetly take over it's neighbours before the others can put it down.

So then peace comes down to wether you trust the others not to be greedy conquerors or paranoid warmongers and nobody trust the others so everybody is just racing towards building armies because every single ruler believe it's useless to fight the temptation (of military build up) because everybody else surely has falen to it.


Some other possibilities are:
1. Tribes can maintain themselves for only a limited time by mining an exhaustible resource such as gems. When the gems run out, they have to make a dash for another good spot, thus the inclination to pair up with a proper side that can ensure they have a steady income.
2. There is some sort of exponential increase in upkeep based on size. So a small tribe of a couple dozen -can- actually forage for their full upkeep, but if they get too big they can't maintain themselves that way. This is a bit unlikely as we haven't seen evidence of that when talking about upkeep thus far, though we have heard mention of 'diminishing returns' on particularly large sides, but that seems to be in city income as opposed to unit upkeep (or maybe the reduction in city income is a hidden component of the increased upkeep)
3. Well, kinda what you said. Maybe you can support yourself purely by scavenging/farming/whatever, but you would have to do literally nothing but that. Besides the obvious invasion dangers (you couldn't spare anyone to scout, or even a king to make decisions), it'd be sort of like having eternal life but you couldn't do anything but press a single button that doesn't do anything over and over again.
4. Tribes might be governed by different rules than sides.
5. Perhaps they have a natural bonus to scavenging to make it cover their costs more easily?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, debate about upkeep aside, what three casters (plus a thinkamancer) would I want?
Lets see, first one that hasn't seen much love yet.

Weirdomancer -We haven't seen anything with them yet, but they have alot of potential even with only knowing that they can do things with specials (adding or removing them). The ability to deny an opponent flight suddenly would be a huge tactical advantage, not least of which because that means they would fall to the ground first. And that's not even getting into tunneling dwagons or land sailing ships. Given that they deal with motion and numbers, I also expect they'd be able to do things like move troops very quickly, perhaps even creating non-caster friendly portals (especially with a link up to help them). The advantages could be quite substantial both strategically and tactically. Leadership is a special too right? Might be able to suddenly dumb down enemy commanders. Stop siege units attacking your cities (or give all your archers siege? Or heck, why even bother, just give all your units the ability to run up walls like they're flat surfaces maybe? Or just fly outright). So very many possibilities. And not entirely war focused either. Give units abilities that make them better at foraging, managing cities, mining, digging, fabrication, etc.

Turnamancer - Despite having barely seen a turnamancer, we actually know quite a bit about them, and they are very versatile. Their three featured functions so far are speeding up unit production in cities, causing units to change sides, and making vehicles that can move under their own power. The first one is a fairly clear advantage, being able to produce more units. Exactly how much this boost can be is vague. We know Charlie (seemingly) gets a flat 50% boost in archon production, but we don't know if he could possibly get more from a higher grade turnamancer, or if a turnamancer can affect multiple cities or what, but it is none the less more raw units, which is a good thing in war. Capturing enemy units can be particularly powerful, especially since (based on what Jillian said) it can even be done mid battle. What could even the odds in a fight more than having half the enemy units turn to your side? Or even just the commander to snipe out the leadership bonus. And finally transportation. It'll allow for faster troop movements in general thanks to atuomagical carts and the like, not to mention the possibility of automated siege towers. And combined with the weirdomancer... well, you're looking at some serious strategic re-positioning potential. You might be able to have your entire army on standby to strike at any given point at any time. And if you link the two? I imagine an army riding flying motorcycles with a hundred move passing through tele-arches that transport them instantly from city to city.

Dollamancer - Because someone is going to have to chrome those flying motorcycles. The Dollamancer more than the other two is the 'peace time' caster, as the creation of dolls and accessories are both fairly passive, and work just as well from the capital as from the front lines (well, not counting leadership), but both of these things are very useful. Dolls are more units, plain and simple. And accessories can give a huge range of advantages to your units, without needing active help from the weirdomancer. With the linkup, you could end up with some very impressive items. Red and white balls that convert enemy units when thrown at them. Magic shoes that give huge movement bonuses. Arrows that remove the flying special from anything that they hit. Arrows that turn into balista bolts when fired. Also, as seen with Ace, dollamancers seem to be able to broach other schools of magic with their items (the zap gun seemed like shockamancy and the hat seemed like lookamancy for example), so that makes them exceedingly versatile. Oh, and I nearly forgot, combine the dollamancer's armaments with the turnamancer's self propelling vehicles, and you have tanks.

I didn't really mean to do it, but I ended up with all three Spookism classes. I have a feeling that would make the link-ups between them all the more likely to succeed and perhaps produce truly exceptional results. While they might not be able to have the same... range of results as a dirtamancer/croakamancer uncroaking a volcano, I think the similarity of their disciplines would give them a much higher amount of power. More focused as it were.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:33 am

Can't wait for Weirdomancy to be revealed to have nothing to do with manipulation of unit specials at all, only gravity powers.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:02 am

Shai_hulud wrote:Can't wait for Weirdomancy to be revealed to have nothing to do with manipulation of unit specials at all, only gravity powers.

I would be happy with a gravity Mage.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:24 pm

Yeah, I'm just laughing at how everyone assumes a guy named Count Topotato is a legitimate source of information.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:52 pm

I'm getting my info on weirdomancers from Jack Snipe actually. Well, Parson, but he got it from Jack. While Jack isn't always all the way there, I tend to trust him on this sort of thing. Titans, who am I kidding? I just plain trust him. Suppose that means he's good at his job.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:42 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Titans, who am I kidding? I just plain trust him. Suppose that means he's good at his job.
Very much so. Foolamancy is the perfect discipline for fooling people, not just because it can create perfectly realistic hallucinations at will, but also because Foolamancers are the most observant and hardest to fool. Like all Eyemancy, Foolamancy is about seeing things, but while Lookamancers are distracted by looking at things in distant places and Thinkamancers only look inside people's heads, the Foolamancer's job is to see things as they really are (B2T10). If you want to know how things really are, you have to ask a Foolamancer and just hope he won't lie to you.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Hasufin » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:25 pm

So far, what we've seen suggests to me that an important factor in the success of a side is not the discipline of the casters, but how well they're used.

FAQ, for example, was a very small side, but had a whopping eight casters. With their foolamancer, lookamancer, and predictamancer, they were able to avoid all attacks, or even awareness of their existence, for over a thousand turns; indeed even Charlie was unable to locate them, and they were only brought down by betrayal from the inside.
And I'd argue that most of their casters were underutilized because of Banhammer's philosophy.

Contrast to Goodminton, which had two casters that were basically ignored by their Overlord - and yet, when they got a third caster who outright demanded the ruler's attention, their star was ascendant (until running headlong into another side that made clever use of their casters.


In a general sense, the key to winning an engagement is in playing a game that's fundamentally different from what your opponent is playing - either by a different set of rules, or on a different level. And each discipline has the potential to do that. Some examples we've seen or which seem obvious to me:

Predictamancy: Predictamancy allows you to know fate - which at first blush seems locked in. But, as Phillip and Marie put it in LiaB 90
Marie: I don't like how those Connys ah looking. Stay close and watch them.
Phillip: Relax. He'll get through the door, you know that.
Marie: Yes, fine.
But in one piece, we don't know.

What this suggests to me is, Predictamancy can tell you that battles will happen, and might tell you if you're fated to win or lose those battles. And, sure, you can try to fight or trick fate - but, alternately, you can acknowledge that, say, you're going to lose a particular battle and thus not commit key forces to it, or in knowing that you are fated to win a battle you can capitalize on that known victory. That's an awesome, game-breaking amount of intel if you use it well.

Turnamancy: Well, of course we've seen Charlie and Vanna's link that ended GK's turn, and that's enormous - it put GK's entire army in a terribly vulnerable spot (it actually reminds me of the old Star Trek Novel The Final Reflection). But beyond that into the realm of things an individual turnamancer can do, you've got the rather mundane utility of speeding up production times. More important is the ability to "turn" prisoners, who can then offer terribly revealing intel, not to mention bolstering forces. Sure, turning a bunch of stabbers is "meh", but it means a side with a turnamancer could potentially capture casters and high-level warlords and suddenly become much more powerful. And self-powered vehicles, which I presume can extend move, have incredible strategic value: consider, say, the use of an armored personnel carrier - you're laying siege to a city, and suddenly reinforcements that should have been five turns away show up and now you're outnumbered. It's effectively a force multiplier, allowing a smaller army to have the effectiveness of a larger army by being able to reach more places.

Dollamancy: We don't know what kind of upkeep dolls need, but I'm getting the impression that they're much cheaper than living units for their relative value in combat. They definitely allow a side to have a much larger army than expected, and seem to be great for defense. My take is, dollamancy doesn't directly seem to break the game on the tactical level, but it lets you win by economics where you might lose on the battlefield.

Dirtamancy: We've seen with DigDoug, and also in the Battle for Gobwin Knob that a dirtamancer is incredibly useful for hardening positions. In the real world, fortifications are extremely effective force multipliers, allowing a small number of soldiers to hold out against a vastly larger army; it's I think fair to assume that is the case here as well. Which is a pretty big deal, since it means you don't need as big of an army for defense.

Dittomancy: Look, this DEFINES "force multiplier". We don't know the exact mechanism here, but consider that it might allow for a Chief Warlord to literally be in two places at once.

Thinkamancy: Oddly, this one seems to me to be one of the least (directly) effective game-changing disciplines. Sure, they're convenient, but they only know what your units know, they can certainly make communication more efficient, and that's huge, but their big game-breaker is the linkups. Those linkups, well - the sky's the limit. Haffaton in its heyday was unimaginably powerful; it's only Olive's ego that fucked that up.

Flower Power: Yeah, the ability to prevent engagement until your forces show up? Kinda handy. And, interestingly enough, most effective when your florist is not embedded in your army. Your florist can keep battles in abeyance until you've got the personnel in place to win. As a really nasty combination, have a florist stop the engagement, then use a turnamancer to take the enemy warlord.

Carnymancy: A carnymancer can make a rule, or suspend a rule? You attack a city with a whole lot of melee units, and melee attacks no longer get any bonuses? The defenders slaughter you, because you were planning on a different set of rules - THEY have ranged attacks planned.



I could go on, but my point is, each discipline can potentially change the nature of the game and confer an incredible advantage. The key is engagement with the casters and lateral thinking in their application.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby conmor » Fri May 30, 2014 5:41 am

what I would want is a shockmancer, dirtamancer, dollamancer, changemancer, and a turnamancer. I know that this is over the three caster limit so I will narrow it down to dirtamancer, shockmancer, and a dollamancer. golems would be everywhere on my side. the best bit is when the shockmancer will link up with one of the others to make shockmancy capable golems. Maxwell(thinkamancer from Haffaton) was able to make thinking golems. the golems have warlord upkeep so I would presume that they are thinking enough to not auto engage and to give commands to other troops. the dollamancer could even give the shock golems accessories to make them even harder to hit without a higher upkeep. my hypothetical side would be in a hex grouping that is desert like(do units(not golems) need water?) the dirtamancer could create lakes in the cities so that they have water, but attacking troops/enemy scouts' water rations would not pop (because it is a desert) and any water they take with them would dry up over time if special precautions are not taken (basically if they bring anything less than a convoy of water carrying turnamancy vehicles then they are screwed). shockmancer preps towers to block flying units which would be the only type that has the move to effectively hit and run without worrying about desert hex. the dirtamancer could create farmlands and mines to support the treasury. I also like the idea of a desert hex where only capable units or a side with a lake making dirtamancer could live in. I look at the list of casters that I wanted and realize how much of it is preparation orientated. dirt, doll, and change make traps, heavy units, and items. turnamancer boosts production and makes sand crawler vehicles. shockmancer is always prepping the towers and making scrolls.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby Zictor » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:25 pm

Depends on a lot of variables, everybody has seen what Dirtamancy can do for the defences of a city and many are choosing a Dirtamancer. But I guess I'll go with Dollamancer, Dittomancer and Turnamancer

Dollamancer: In a way, these guys can do for a unit what Dirtamancy can do for cities. Cool armor, cool weapons, Shockmancy devices (like guns, mines or grenades). My warlords would be badass with these. Cloth golems, scarecrows, dolls, molls? Expendable units, always useful.

Dittomancer: We know doubles vanish at the end of a turn, but if a double Dollamancer produces a device, is it permanent? I imagine him doubling the Dollamancer to increase productivity. Also, in times of war I could get stacks of doubles and send them into the middle of the enemy column on suicide missions, who cares if they die? If making doubles costs too much juice I can double the warlords and get them leading dolls and golems. Another question, do you get XP from killing doubles? I could double units and get my units to kill the doubles so they can level.

Turnamancer: Accelerated unit production? Yes please. Self propelled vehicles? This would be invaluable for transporting troops.

Now come the links and what I expect can be awesome:

Dollamancer + Dittomancer: OMG where to begin? Fabrication + Copies = Mass production! Remember those very nifty sets of armor and cool weapons? How about equipping your whole infantry with them? Equipping your whole army could have devastating effects and increase survavibility rate. Also, I wonder If it would be possible to make a cloning machine, in order to produce more doubles of my units. Or even mass-producing Golems!

Dollamancer + Turnamancer: Tanks? Exosuits? Now my warlords will be REALLY SCARY.

Maybe the cloning machine would need a Turnamancer + Dittomancer link.

Now I have a cheap way to mass produce and mass-buff my army.
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Re: What Caster Type would you want?

Postby conmor » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:49 pm

don't forget that the reason accessories are not widely used is that they can fall into enemy hands. hats are used by most people so they dont really care, but if the armament that slately had had fallen into enemy hands then jetstone would be facepalming. i suggested accessories for my golems because golems are heavies with he seeming ability to be revived by a dirtamancer.
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