Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

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Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:17 am

I can absolutely see the benefit of linking Misty and Maggie to get the real time battle info for Gobwin Knob. But using a Foolamamcer simply to generate a fancy battle map seems like an utter waste. Veiling is an extremely powerful ability and the link totally prevented Jack from doing that.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby Godzfirefly » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:44 am

Having a real-time battle map when your opponent must send out scouts is even more useful than veiling in combat. Especially since you can use the map to see where your opponents are and hide from them by simply avoiding them, and that works across all hexes of units rather than just one at a time. It isn't like you can maintain the veil once in combat, after all.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:49 am

Godzfirefly wrote:Having a real-time battle map when your opponent must send out scouts is even more useful than veiling in combat. Especially since you can use the map to see where your opponents are and hide from them by simply avoiding them, and that works across all hexes of units rather than just one at a time. It isn't like you can maintain the veil once in combat, after all.


Couldn't you just have a team of twolls updating a traditional map based on Maggie's direction?
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby Godzfirefly » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:11 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote:Having a real-time battle map when your opponent must send out scouts is even more useful than veiling in combat. Especially since you can use the map to see where your opponents are and hide from them by simply avoiding them, and that works across all hexes of units rather than just one at a time. It isn't like you can maintain the veil once in combat, after all.


Couldn't you just have a team of twolls updating a traditional map based on Maggie's direction?


Probably not, since it takes Juice to Look into a specific hex and gather scouting information, and I don't think Maggie could Look into every relevant hex without the full power of the Link.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:15 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
GWvsJohn wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote:Having a real-time battle map when your opponent must send out scouts is even more useful than veiling in combat. Especially since you can use the map to see where your opponents are and hide from them by simply avoiding them, and that works across all hexes of units rather than just one at a time. It isn't like you can maintain the veil once in combat, after all.


Couldn't you just have a team of twolls updating a traditional map based on Maggie's direction?


Probably not, since it takes Juice to Look into a specific hex and gather scouting information, and I don't think Maggie could Look into every relevant hex without the full power of the Link.


Now that's a good point.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:44 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:Probably not, since it takes Juice to Look into a specific hex and gather scouting information, and I don't think Maggie could Look into every relevant hex without the full power of the Link.
It doesn't seem like Foolamancy would help with that. If Thinkamancy-boosted Misty wouldn't have enough juice to see into every hex in the area, then I would expect that the only way to fix that problem would be to add a second Lookamancer to the link. If Jack contributed anything other than the fancy self-updating table, then I would guess it would be giving them the ability to see through veils. Without Jack, it would probably have been possible to fool Gobwin Knob's table with Foolamancy, but on the other hand the RCC wasn't using any Foolamancy that we ever saw.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:16 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote:Probably not, since it takes Juice to Look into a specific hex and gather scouting information, and I don't think Maggie could Look into every relevant hex without the full power of the Link.
It doesn't seem like Foolamancy would help with that. If Thinkamancy-boosted Misty wouldn't have enough juice to see into every hex in the area, then I would expect that the only way to fix that problem would be to add a second Lookamancer to the link. If Jack contributed anything other than the fancy self-updating table, then I would guess it would be giving them the ability to see through veils. Without Jack, it would probably have been possible to fool Gobwin Knob's table with Foolamancy, but on the other hand the RCC wasn't using any Foolamancy that we ever saw.


I think he was implying that misty can give the info directly to jack to project the table and Maggie doesn't need to waste mental capacity or juice parsing the info herself
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:29 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote:Probably not, since it takes Juice to Look into a specific hex and gather scouting information, and I don't think Maggie could Look into every relevant hex without the full power of the Link.
It doesn't seem like Foolamancy would help with that. If Thinkamancy-boosted Misty wouldn't have enough juice to see into every hex in the area, then I would expect that the only way to fix that problem would be to add a second Lookamancer to the link. If Jack contributed anything other than the fancy self-updating table, then I would guess it would be giving them the ability to see through veils. Without Jack, it would probably have been possible to fool Gobwin Knob's table with Foolamancy, but on the other hand the RCC wasn't using any Foolamancy that we ever saw.


I think he was implying that misty can give the info directly to jack to project the table and Maggie doesn't need to waste mental capacity or juice parsing the info herself

Or, that a tri link supposedly has the juice of all three people combined, so having Jack in the link gives a ~50% juice bonus or more, because he is Master class (and has been for.... hundreds of turns?)
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:47 pm

GWvsJohn wrote:I think he was implying that misty can give the info directly to jack to project the table and Maggie doesn't need to waste mental capacity or juice parsing the info herself
I like this theory. I doubt that Jack was merely contributing juice. Juice in links probably isn't as simple as that. For example, I doubt that you could link a Croakamancer with a Mathamancer and expect the linked casters do be able to do 3 times as much Croakamancy per turn as the Croakamancer alone. When the job to be done is Croakamancy, then I bet the bulk of the juice required will need to come from the Croakamancer, or worse, all three casters will contributed just as much juice but the Mathamancer's juice would be totally wasted.

On the other hand, the idea that Jack is doing the analysis makes a lot of sense. Just look at how Foolamancy is described in B2T10. "At all times, the Foolamancer must observe the nouns around him in finest detail and broadest stroke, in a way that other minds do not. Other minds take shortcuts. Other minds construct, telling themselves stories about what they see, rather than seeing." So Misty could be acting merely as a telescope, while Jack is responsible for making the actual observations and deciding how to represent them on the table.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby Omnimancer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:59 am

That makes sense.

It may be that a foolamancer's natural ability to see the truth makes it easier to have a constantly updating 24/7 display. A lookamancer by themselves might just get brief glimpses with each spell, which is still very useful but can quickly become inaccurate on the enemy's turn, requiring the lookamancer to spend juice on multiple castings. Pairing with a foolamancer might have other benefits too, like extending the lookamancer's range or allow them to scry on more hexes at once than they can by themselves, or provide a higher quality scrying spell that can obtain more info on each hex.

Aside from the map, it's also worth pointing out that the tri-link also did things like create the eyebooks and who knows what else. And once they're linked together, you can't unlink them safely. So using them to create the map was pretty much all Stanley could do with them, even on times when it would have made sense to split them up.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby Lamech » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:54 am

Omnimancer wrote:That makes sense.

It may be that a foolamancer's natural ability to see the truth makes it easier to have a constantly updating 24/7 display. A lookamancer by themselves might just get brief glimpses with each spell, which is still very useful but can quickly become inaccurate on the enemy's turn, requiring the lookamancer to spend juice on multiple castings. Pairing with a foolamancer might have other benefits too, like extending the lookamancer's range or allow them to scry on more hexes at once than they can by themselves, or provide a higher quality scrying spell that can obtain more info on each hex.

Aside from the map, it's also worth pointing out that the tri-link also did things like create the eyebooks and who knows what else. And once they're linked together, you can't unlink them safely. So using them to create the map was pretty much all Stanley could do with them, even on times when it would have made sense to split them up.

Hey, I had a thought about foolamancy: those archons with there DDR spell used a foolamancy thinkamancy to provide a "mechanical" buff. By information output through foolamancy it can actually help people in battle. In turn perhaps the battle map and the "picture is worth a thousand words" meme a mechanical buff be provided to the troops Parson commands via table or the warlord using it?
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby 0beron » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:59 pm

And as continued use of the table to run simulations has proved, seeing something projected with Foolamancy provides benefits that cannot be quantified as bonuses, in the form of learning/tactics.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:00 pm

0beron wrote:And as continued use of the table to run simulations has proved, seeing something projected with Foolamancy provides benefits that cannot be quantified as bonuses, in the form of learning/tactics.


True, but they weren't doing that before Parson :)
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby drachefly » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:45 pm

I think that links are severely synergistic. They do things not a little bit bigger, but a LOT bigger than the three casters could do separately. If what Sizemore could dig up or throw around in a single turn was like the period at the end of this sentence, then the volcano tri-link was this whole paragraph.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby 0beron » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:52 pm

Agreed. Also consider the way that crossing disciplines works. With all 3 Eyemancies involved, you have a "unit" that could simultaneously see everything, "hear" everyone, and share that experience in true-to-life detail. Maggie tells us that G-strings communicate way more than mere words and pictures, they can carry intuition, emotion, and so much else. We have to assume Lookamancy could be similarly complex. You add in Jack, and that heightened detail can be accurately conveyed in a manner that words could not do justice.

That's how I just came to think of it.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby Alpha the White » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:16 pm

And don't forget the offensive uses of these disciplines.

The only spell we've seen cast by an unlinked lookamancer was blindness. What offensive synergies might all three eyemancers bring together?

And as two of the three disciplines with abilities that we KNOW can cross hex boundaries off-turn (not sure if hat magicians count though), any method of casting offensive spells across hexes is probably going to involve a link with one of them. I can't help but imagine if they'd thought about it, they'd have been able to have the link veil those Dwagons that Jillian savaged in book 1.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby 0beron » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:20 pm

I don't think they could have veiled, if the whole off-turn casting out of the hex thing is such a hard limit. However I definitely think they could have "attacked" Jillian's mind and caused hallucination so she wouldn't see the dwagons. They'd have to hit the Archons too though, and I'm not sure they could handle 4 targets at once, especially when 3 of them have Spell Sense and at leats one has Thinkamancy of their own.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby LordAcme » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:12 am

... er, the question is whether someone was employed to the greatest efficiency in a plan conceived of by .... Stanley? I would have to ascribe any added values to pure luck and lay any waste of ability right at his feet.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby 0beron » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:48 am

Wanda said Stanley ordered it...she never explicitly said it was his IDEA. Honestly it has her signature all over it.
And even if it was Stanley's idea, the benefit added by Jack doesn't need to be intentional in order to be effective, it's still a benefit whether Stanley knew it or not.
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Re: Was Jack wasted in the Tri-Link?

Postby drachefly » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:55 am

She did say it was the shrewdest thing he'd ever done.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F047.jpg

If she'd manipulated him into it, that comes off as an unnatural thing to say.
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