Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

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Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Lipkin » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:06 am

Alright, so we know that Charlie + Vanna the Turnamancer was very powerful. It ended an enemy's turn (and maybe turned the Giants to Faq?). I suspect that Bowie the Changemancer was partially responsible for the creation of the arsenal the Archons are seen packing in the finale of book 2. What other game breakers does Charlie have at his disposal? With a Turnamancer, Changemancer, Findamancer, and second Carnymancer in play, things could get very messy. With Parson also thinking links are the way to win this war, Book 3 might end up being an arms race, seeing who can create the most powerful links.

Also, Bea made her casters swear to only hire to royal sides. Doesn't that mean Charlie is royal?
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Godzfirefly » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:18 am

I think that technically the Turnamancer is hired out to Faq who is using Charlie's money, and Faq is royal. So, that's how that loophole was arranged.

That said, I definitely agree that we are going to see a variety of unit and magic types never before seen in Erfworld.

I also know that Unaroyal's casters aren't going to be the only casters available to Charlie or any side that allies with Charlie. There seem to be a lot of every variety of caster in the Magic Kingdom, so it seems likely that at least one Master Class caster of each type (excluding those that oppose Charlie as a group, like the Great Minds) will be available for hire to Charlie. And, maybe, to Gobwin Knob, too.

Lastly, this may be thinking ahead too far, but does anyone else think that even if Book 3 ends with the fall of Charlie, then the story will not be over? After all, Parson still needs to make this current war into the last one, if the Predictamancers are right. So somehow this war with Charlie needs to change Erfworld so much that war isn't even conceivable on Erfworld anymore.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Lipkin » Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:45 am

I cannot see Wanda and Parson continuing to see eye to eye. I think they will end up as enemies before the story is through.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:35 am

Lipkin wrote:I cannot see Wanda and Parson continuing to see eye to eye. I think they will end up as enemies before the story is through.

I find that unlikely. Wanda and Jack both basically view Parson as being exactly what was promised, a perfect warlord. Wanda's fateism is going to have her go along with Parson if nothing else. I'd put serious quatloo on them not being enemies (in the sense of sides). That said, both sides basically have access to every kind of magic thanks to the magic kingdom, with the exception of thinkamancers for Charlie (but he has the arkendish), and likely Carnies for Parson (while they don't all work for him most likely, I doubt Parson is going to risk it.)
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Denar » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:00 pm

Lipkin wrote:I cannot see Wanda and Parson continuing to see eye to eye. I think they will end up as enemies before the story is through.


I sort of agree.

On the one hand, Wanda is entirely subservient to Fateism.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -12-24.png

In this update, she's one of the caster's who understands about why Parson was truly summoned, and the prophecies behind him.

So with that, I cannot see Wanda breaking away from Parson. It goes entirely against her philosophy.

BUT

on the other hand, there's this episode,

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-12.png

Jillian tried to think of what he could mean by that. "What, Wanda? I just parleyed with her. If you hadn't had me under nondisclosure I could've turned her. She doesn't hate you, she'd probably work for you."

There was a long, long silence. The stack flew nearly across the entire hex. Jillian thought maybe the Thinkagram connection was broken, but she hadn't felt the usual little pop.

Then she heard Charlie's voice, for the first time sounding stressed. "That's extremely interesting information, Jillian. We'll talk about it later, but I've got a developing situation. Please don't attack the column alone. I'll try to get you some help. Goodbye."


Now, what Charlie said could have perhaps just been the "business-like" polite way of ending a call, but I'm inclined to read more into it.

Will Charlie try and get Wanda on his side?

Jillian told him there was a chance.

Charlie's about to get access to an Archon, which we know from the retconned update, shares a thinkamancy link into her mind.

And Charlie's been in there before. In fact, he knows all about one of her specific weaknesses:

“I would accept one, though,” said Wanda, looking at her with shame. “If you offered me a heroine bud, I would place it in my hair at once.”

They locked eyes for several moments. “That’s terrifying.”

“It’s the truth. I think you’ll be left in a similar state.”

And if Charlie wants to control either of us, he really just has to dangle a flower,” said Jillian, looking up into the blue sky and shooting a glare at the distant blue dots. “I can’t keep saying no forever.”


He was contractually obliged to destroy his heroine buds and his garden - could he find some loophole around that? Just to make one more bud?

edit: to clarify, I don't necessarily believe that Charlie is going to bring back the heroine buds, but he might chase up on the other stuff.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:29 pm

I think it is important to keep in mind that Jillian doesn't know (or really know) about Parson. Yes, if it was just Stanley, I think Jillian might have actually been able to turn Wanda, and I imagine Jack would have come with Wanda when possible (which, with the portal, would have been very quickly). I'm not entirely sure why he is sticking around GK, but I imagine it has (had) something to do with a prediction and Wanda.

Jack aside though, I really don't think Wanda would leave Parson. Love is very much not the wrong word, and Idolize isn't quite it either, but Wanda holds Parson in incredibly high esteem, and I can't imagine her wanting to be on any side except the side Parson happens to be on. I doubt he realizes this, but I imagine if he truly wanted to, and could with whatever loyalty the summon spell is placing on him, he could start a new side and Wanda would follow him. Maggie likely would as well. And that would instantly deprive GK of all its casters and most of their army. And as we've seen, Stanley is fairly hopeless at rulering and using his arkenhammer, so it wouldn't be a big deal to take him over. Oh, and if Parson did it right now, he would instantly capture GK's capital of Spacerock. Like I said, I doubt he'd do that, because loyalty won't let him, and he likely can't be certain enough that Wanda would come with him to seriously consider it.

All that speculation aside, I suppose the caster combo and caster link pages would be good places to look for possibilities as to what Charlie might have in store. Looks like he has a ton of dollamancy access, since the Archons were holding guns or something similar, likely some kind of dollamancy weapon. I'm sure a lightning trap (or 10) like the one currently in Homekey is hiding around the city somewhere.

Edit: Oh, and since his city likely hasn't been attacked in thousands and thousands of turns, I cringe to think how massively charged his tower must be.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Lipkin » Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:51 pm

Yes, Wanda does hold Parson in a great deal of reverence. But it's not exactly Parson that she is loyal to. She is loyal to her idea of Fate, and because to her he's proven himself as the Perfect Warlord, she follows him. If he starts acting like something other than her idea of a perfect warlord, she'll turn on him, or try to force him back to her ideal.

Parson believes in free will. When that is challenged, which it has to an extent, he'll try to push back. If he decides to forge his own way, instead of following what fate supposedly wants for him, Wanda will do everything in her power to return him to the path that she thinks he is supposed to be on, whether he wants her to or not. Like Maggie throwing the suggestion spell at Stanley, I could see Wanda trying to manipulate or even torture Parson into compliance.

If Parson decides Wanda is going too far, he could turn. Or if Wanda is displeased with Parson's choices, she could split off or turn and try to strong arm him. If she turns, I'm betting the decrypted will turn too, leaving Gobwin Knob sorely depleted and outmatched. I think Parson and Stanley are going to stick together. They may butt heads, but I think they'll eventually figure a way to work things out. Their skill sets are extremely complimentary.

Wanda is convinced of her world view, willing to conquer the world on that belief, and has the power to do it. Never mind that decrypting the world wouldn't actually end warfare, and would leave the entire world under Wanda's control. I really think Parson is going to end up challenging Wanda's zealotry.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:10 pm

Lipkin wrote:Their skill sets are extremely complimentary.
Stanley has a skill set?

Never mind that decrypting the world wouldn't actually end warfare, and would leave the entire world under Wanda's control.

If she controlled the entire world through decryption, who exactly would be at war with her?

Those quips aside, I do yield that there is a fair bit of possibility to what you said. I don't see it playing out that way, but it isn't unpossible.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Lipkin » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:21 pm

Stanley was an effective warlord even before he got the hammer. He may not be the strategic genius that Parson is, but he knows how the game is supposed to be played, so he gives Parson context. If he stopped calling Parson an idiot for not knowing things, they'd actually make a good team.

And the entire world wouldn't be decrypted, just whoever didn't fall into line. Eventually those that did wall into line would fall out of line, plus that new units would be popping all the time. With popped units come rebellion, off splits, and croaking that Wanda get get to in time to decrypt. People will continue to make war, even if every major city is populated by a majority of decrypted. Essentially you'd end up with strict dictatorship lead by Wanda, with non-decrypted being the oppressed. If they don't play along, they get croaked and decrypted. Sounds great.

But I think eventually, Stanley is going to get too jealous of Wanda to let her continue unchecked. He'll try to reign her in and fail, resulting in her attacking him, or splitting off. Parson wouldn't stand by for that, both because Wanda is crazy, and because he is magically loyal to Stanley, so the lines then become drawn.

Basically, Wanda is too crazy, and has too much power not to become an antagonist eventually.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Lilwik » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:49 pm

Lipkin wrote:Basically, Wanda is too crazy, and has too much power not to become an antagonist eventually.
I'm not so sure about that. Think about B1P32, where Stanley shows himself to be at least a little bit crazy too. It seems like Wanda and Stanley are both crazy and in a highly compatible way; they share the same goals and the same way of thinking. Stanley may be jealous, but that's not going to be enough for him to do anything as long as Wanda continues to be a powerful and effective means of collecting the arkentools, and Wanda has no motivation to do anything else. They are nearly perfect allies, probably because Wanda has manipulated Stanley to suit her needs.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Lipkin » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:48 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Basically, Wanda is too crazy, and has too much power not to become an antagonist eventually.
I'm not so sure about that. Think about B1P32, where Stanley shows himself to be at least a little bit crazy too. It seems like Wanda and Stanley are both crazy and in a highly compatible way; they share the same goals and the same way of thinking. Stanley may be jealous, but that's not going to be enough for him to do anything as long as Wanda continues to be a powerful and effective means of collecting the arkentools, and Wanda has no motivation to do anything else. They are nearly perfect allies, probably because Wanda has manipulated Stanley to suit her needs.

That was

1. When characterization was still being figured out for all the characters. Look at the post interrogation scene between Wanda and Jillian. Niether of them is really talking like the characters we've come to know, in the prequel or comic proper.

2. Before a lot of character development for both Wanda and Stanley. They may have seen eye to eye at the time, but Stanley is showing signs of not being too pleased with Wanda's success.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:20 pm

If Wanda has decrypted in every city, that means she controls every city. If she controls every city, every city is on her side. If every city is on her side, she controls what every city pops, and every unit the city pops is on her side. If every unit is on her side, she wouldn't have to control them dictator style because they'd all be naturally loyal. If Wanda controls the world she would end war because there'd be no one to fight. If she really wanted she could stop cities popping units to prevent any possible uprisings.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Lilwik » Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:43 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:If Wanda has decrypted in every city, that means she controls every city.
Not everyone that Wanda decrypts needs to be under Wanda's control, since the decrypted can turn.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:If every unit is on her side, she wouldn't have to control them dictator style because they'd all be naturally loyal.
Loyalty isn't a guarantee; it just makes betrayal less likely. If the entire world were all one side, I doubt it would take long for someone to decide that a different leader would be better, since there would be an entire world of people who might do that. It would surely be rare for a single city to try to start its own side since it would be very badly outnumbered, but if enough rebellious cities got together they might eventually decide they were powerful enough to stand a chance of survival after turning.

A world-side would be too big for any one person to control directly. There would probably be a vast number of cities which Wanda had never even visited once. Rebellious cities wouldn't even need to be covert about their rebellion because there would probably be no one watching. Or perhaps the world would be divided into regions that are each small enough for an individual to control, and each region could be given to a trusted governor, but I doubt it would be possible to find governors who are trustworthy enough that they wouldn't eventually start fighting each other.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Godzfirefly » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:39 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:[...]they'd all be naturally loyal.[...]

I am not sure that Loyalty is something that is natural, like Duty or Obedience. Like Maggie said, Loyalty is complicated.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Prodigial_Knight » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:13 pm

Lipkin wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Basically, Wanda is too crazy, and has too much power not to become an antagonist eventually.
I'm not so sure about that. Think about B1P32, where Stanley shows himself to be at least a little bit crazy too. It seems like Wanda and Stanley are both crazy and in a highly compatible way; they share the same goals and the same way of thinking. Stanley may be jealous, but that's not going to be enough for him to do anything as long as Wanda continues to be a powerful and effective means of collecting the arkentools, and Wanda has no motivation to do anything else. They are nearly perfect allies, probably because Wanda has manipulated Stanley to suit her needs.

That was

1. When characterization was still being figured out for all the characters. Look at the post interrogation scene between Wanda and Jillian. Niether of them is really talking like the characters we've come to know, in the prequel or comic proper.

2. Before a lot of character development for both Wanda and Stanley. They may have seen eye to eye at the time, but Stanley is showing signs of not being too pleased with Wanda's success.


Leaving aside the Wanda/Jillian scenes, how is Stanley's rant about good/evil and holy/unholy out of caracter with current Stanley ?

Stanley allways was self absorbed so it makes sense that he would disregard any belief system which casts him in a negative light and champion any system which casts him in a positive one.

It just so happens that he received a pretty objective sign (the hammer) that he really is the bee's knees, plus we know that Wanda was the one who got him started on the quest for the Arkentools so he's probably reciting lines Wanda wrote, altough he believes them completely.

Plus his perspective that the Royals rule thorugh fear as well is perfectly in-line for a former infantry man turned warlord, a salt of the earth type, and is true on a lot of levels.

I think that speech is a nice counterpoint to Ansom's own freak-out/speech "it's my privilige and duty to ... ", that is what both characters believe every day, or did, Stanley that he is the Titan's favourite son and Ansom that the Titans chose the nobles it's just that they don't do a speech about it everyday, Stanley because as he said educating people is exhausting work and Ansom because he probably knew that reminding non-nobles that they're inferior was not polite.
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Re: Charlie and the Unaroyal casters

Postby Lipkin » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:12 pm

I'm just saying you should take any character stuff from that early in the comic with a grain of salt.

As for the notion that Stanley is shown to be crazy in that scene, I disagree. For one, while the "good and evil are a lie" speech is one that we are very accustomed to hearing come from the mouth of villains, in this case, we know now that he is right. Erfworld is varying shades of grey. Stanley was branded as evil, and that brand was used to gather a massive army to come kill him. Is it any surprise that hearing someone just assume he is evil would set him off? He's using the "they're just jealous" excuse to make himself feel better. Believing that he is chosen strokes his ego, but at the end of the day, he doesn't really put much stock in it.

Wanda is a zealot. Nothing anyone says to her will shake her beliefs. She says that Charlescom is the last side they would attack. Stanley, on the other hand, only considers for a moment whether the Titans would like a Tool on Tool fight before being completely on board with going after Charlie. He's not a true believer, and he's already unhappy with how Wanda is outshining him. They are going to butt heads, and sooner rather than later.
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