The Return of the Caster Speculation

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The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby SandroTheMaster » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:09 pm

So... we learned that Casters are warlords popped at chance. Nice, it explains ONE question.

So... what is the Magic Kingdoms anyway? That place was made by barbarian casters? Does it also pops casters? It pays upkeep to side-less casters? It collects upkeep from hired casters?

And the factions, does they have any bearing on the kind of caster popped? If Wanda and Jack were from the original Faq, it doesn't seem to follow any particular larger theme, but is there something we're not seeing? Does that mean that GK has any connection to Stuffamancy or the Erf Axis?

Well, I don't know, but these are questions that bear asking.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby raphfrk » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:43 pm

SandroTheMaster wrote:So... we learned that Casters are warlords popped at chance. Nice, it explains ONE question.

So... what is the Magic Kingdoms anyway? That place was made by barbarian casters? Does it also pops casters? It pays upkeep to side-less casters? It collects upkeep from hired casters?


I think the casters in the MK are mainly barbarians who were freed when their sides were destroyed, like the Unaroyal casters.

However, there is still the issue about how it initially came into existence.

One option is that a Ruler decided to offer sanctuary to barbarian casters in exchange for a fee. As time passed, the caster "business" became the mainstay of the side. A large number of casters in one place would be pretty powerful.

Another possibility is that when barbarian warlords pop at random, there is the chance that they will be casters (in the same way it works for sides popping warlords). The MK could have been founded by a caster.

No matter how it started, once they figured out portal magic, the next step would be to disperse the portals to as many sides as possible.

This creates a feedback loop. The more casters who go to the MK, the better defended it becomes.

Also, by renting out their services, in a strictly neutral way, they become useful and not worth attacking.

Finally, once they are an established feature, Rulers would start sending their casters there, rather than having an invading army capture them.

And the factions, does they have any bearing on the kind of caster popped?


The update said that the Titans know the heart of the Ruler, so there could be an increased chance that the caster that is popped is useful given the side's situation.

If Wanda and Jack were from the original Faq, it doesn't seem to follow any particular larger theme, but is there something we're not seeing? Does that mean that GK has any connection to Stuffamancy or the Erf Axis?


Well, Jack was an essential part of Faq's defences.

Wanda is less clear. However, she is a capable of being a generalist and could perform spells from other types of magic.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby SandroTheMaster » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:09 pm

Do dirtamancers increases the resource production the way Turnamancers increase the popping rate? Would that have anything to do with the why was Sizemore popped in GK side?
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby Kaed » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:58 pm

There's an interesting Fanon theory of how the Magic Kingdom came to be in anyone was interested.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/ ... ve_History

In fact, I think I'll start a thread on that since it's sort of different that this one's subject.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby Lord Kasavin » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:58 pm

Is it just me, or does caster popping seem a lot like a "Dungeon Master" dynamic? There's somebody out there who looks at a side and decides that they need more casters and picks what they think would be a good and interesting choice.

Hence, a dirtmancer for the mountainous GK.

Other than that, there's still a random chance that any warlord popped becomes a caster, and what kind of caster is randomized resulting in some odd picks, like a croakamancer working for a peaceful bubble kingdom.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby kefkakrazy » Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:51 am

SandroTheMaster wrote:Do dirtamancers increases the resource production the way Turnamancers increase the popping rate? Would that have anything to do with the why was Sizemore popped in GK side?


They explicitly give a bonus to upgrading cities (in Schmucker savings). Presumably, they can also mine for gems (thus producing resources), and can animate golems (including crap golems, using a highly-available material to form valuable combat units).
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby Incomptinence » Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:45 am

Being aligned to erf in the magic access, I would expect stuffamancers to be the stuffiest of the stuffamancers.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby SandroTheMaster » Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:17 pm

Aside the running joke that Retconjuration is the magic of the creators (and the Titans), what can we speculate about the especializations?

Retconjuration, for instance, I think is about changing small things. Like, making so a warlord didn't actually equip his artifact for the battle or other small changes. Master-class could erase certain units from existing (or making them die earlier), but that wouldn't work on warlords, other casters and the such. That seems to work well with the old name (deletionism, if I remember right). Maybe even preventing an unit from dying, considering it wasn't an overkilling croak
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby Guurzak » Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:17 pm

That's not a running joke, it's canon. There are no retconjurers in Erfworld. This has been explicitly stated by Rob. There's no point speculating about what abilities such a unit might have, unless Rob Himself gets plotted into Erfworld.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby Jatopian » Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:42 pm

Guurzak wrote:That's not a running joke, it's canon. There are no retconjurers in Erfworld. This has been explicitly stated by Rob. There's no point speculating about what abilities such a unit might have, unless Rob Himself gets plotted into Erfworld.
There are no Retconjurers in Erfworld yet. It's 'like a theoretical periodic table element'.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:40 pm

SandroTheMaster wrote:So... what is the Magic Kingdoms anyway? That place was made by barbarian casters? Does it also pops casters? It pays upkeep to side-less casters? It collects upkeep from hired casters?


My two cents: MK was designed by the titans as a "game" feature. That way all sides have access to all kind of magic, at least if they can pay for it. Every capital has a portal to the MK by default. MK has a own treasure like a natural ally and pays the upkeep for barbarian casters. It is also a necessary place where casters can learn new spells.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby raphfrk » Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:25 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Every capital has a portal to the MK by default.


This is unclear. However, given that Jillian managed to hire Unaroyal's turnamancer, she is probably already connected up.

This might not be automatic by the world itself. It could just be that the MK offers portals for free to all sides as part of its marketing campaign.

I wonder if Faq had a link when it was trying to stay hidden. I guess their casters could just give no info about location.

It is also a necessary place where casters can learn new spells.


There is no info that this is necessary for learning new spells.

However, they definitely offer some training as was seen at the start of book 1, when Sizemore was trying to learn some hippiemancer spells.

This could be a way to learn spells faster. Alternatively, casters might randomly get new spells when they level, but you can only learn specific spells by receiving training from someone who already has the spells.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby yay » Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:42 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Every capital has a portal to the MK by default.


This is unclear. However, given that Jillian managed to hire Unaroyal's turnamancer, she is probably already connected up.

This might not be automatic by the world itself. It could just be that the MK offers portals for free to all sides as part of its marketing campaign.


so far we have only seen two portals, one in Gobwin Knob and the other in Unaroyal's capitol. the definition of a capitol could just be that it is connected to the Magic kingdom

Jatopian wrote:
Guurzak wrote:That's not a running joke, it's canon. There are no retconjurers in Erfworld. This has been explicitly stated by Rob. There's no point speculating about what abilities such a unit might have, unless Rob Himself gets plotted into Erfworld.
There are no Retconjurers in Erfworld yet. It's 'like a theoretical periodic table element'.


maybe that could be a sign the end is nigh, so to speak. the sky turns to ash and the sea to blood, and the croaked shall rise and walk amongst us again. Behold, cried a voice from the heavens, i give you a retconjurer to undo your evil transgressions... :o

apocolypse aside, can a noble pop as a caster. cuz if jillians or Don Kings heirs turn out to be retconjurers, or any mancer at all...
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:50 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Every capital has a portal to the MK by default.


This is unclear. However, given that Jillian managed to hire Unaroyal's turnamancer, she is probably already connected up.

This might not be automatic by the world itself. It could just be that the MK offers portals for free to all sides as part of its marketing campaign.

I wonder if Faq had a link when it was trying to stay hidden. I guess their casters could just give no info about location.


It's indeed unclear... that's why its just a little theory.
I think it's very likely that old Faq had a portal. How else could Wanda gotten word that Stanley had found the arkenhammer, if not in the MK from another caster? So we got two capitals with definitly a portal, GK and Unaroyal and 3 that very likely have or had an portal, old and new Faq and Charlescomm.

I don't think the casters from MK can make portals themselves. If they could, why haven't we seen any portals outside of the MK? for bigger sides it would be extremly useful to have one or more portals between the capital and big cities far away. Even if that would be a limited version that can send only one unit per day, it would be incredible useful to send the chief warlord to cities under attack or give the ruler an escape route. Of course it doesn't mean that doesn't exist just because we haven't seen it so far.

raphfrk wrote:
It is also a necessary place where casters can learn new spells.


There is no info that this is necessary for learning new spells.

However, they definitely offer some training as was seen at the start of book 1, when Sizemore was trying to learn some hippiemancer spells.

This could be a way to learn spells faster. Alternatively, casters might randomly get new spells when they level, but you can only learn specific spells by receiving training from someone who already has the spells.


The only evidence if have for my claim is that Sizemore had Janis as teacher for Flower Power at the beginning of book 1. So it seems to be possible to learn a new spell, but if it's necessary is not clear.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby JamesL » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:11 pm

yay wrote:apocolypse aside, can a noble pop as a caster.


I'm thinking maybe only Nobles (and Royals, presumably) can pop as a Caster. When attempting to pop Casters, Jillian popped Noble warlords. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that, like Archons, Nobles are knight-class units (going with the traditional role of early feudal nobility) that pop with a Special. Most would get the Leadership special and become Warlords, but a few would get the Caster special (and maybe some get something else). Nobles get stronger stats; Casters do seem smarter than the average unit, while they by default count as Commanders-- and I'd be willing to bet all Nobles can command units. I may be wrong, but I think it fits. It even fits with Stanley promoting his Warlords instead of popping them.

Which would give a big disadvantage to non-Royal sides since they can't pop Nobles. Charlie could make up for it a bit with his Archons, but Stanley would have to rely on what he could Decrypt or capture.

As for the Magic Kingdom, "Kingdom" implies Royalty. Maybe a Royal Caster, some Prince or Princess, founded it? It could just be made up of Barbarian Casters, too, I don't know, but that does lead one to ask how it came to be. Even if it is Barbarian, who's in charge? Does it even count as a side? It's odd that apparently only Casters can exist there. Unless that's a built-in function of the Portals, so it's really that only Casters can get there... Can you even get to it by means other than Portals or is it its own small world? Too much we don't know.
Last edited by JamesL on Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:18 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby TiMothra » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:54 pm

Magic Kingdom has actually been incorporated into so few of the comics and updates, that it seems like discussions regarding it are particularly speculative.

However, wouldn't Erfworld naming conventions suggest that there is an associated King to rule the Magic Kingdom? I doubt it would occur to the casters to keep the name just because it sounds neat. Speculating about what we know about the hierarchy and organization in the kingdom itself, though, would suggest that he's nothing more than a figure head. If the Magic Kingdom had no resources, and therefore no units, it would be easy for a coalition of casters to set up shop and have the run of the place, to form it into their own intellectual utopia. The cost of keeping it going would just be the schmukers necessary to keep the Magic Overlord in his upkeep.

Alternatively, I would suggest that it exists because of and incorporates a mechanic by which only casters can survive there. A good possibility would be that it requires juice to keep from disbanding there. This would explain why most units would immediately disband, as most don't have juice. Parson, with his hidden stats, may have enough juice to sustain himself. This situation could arise in the scenario mentioned above, where the Titans set aside space for casters or the casters made it themselves, outside of the fabric of Erfworld reality, necessitating the juice-associated upkeep. Maybe casters don't even need to pay upkeep in the pocket world of MK, but instead require juice, possibly made manifest in the currency traded there- rands. By engaging in this kind of exchange, a caster could accumulate rands necessary to sustain his stay in MK and use his own juice for his own works. This mechanic could also explain why casters in MK do not disband along with their sides when the capital fall or the overlord croaks.

Personally, it looks from the panel art of MK that it exists at the nexus of something. The way the coloration expands from the center and into the surrounding waters almost definitely has to do with an explanation of its nature.

Also, one of my favorite meta-gaming jokes is how retconjuration got retconjured into existence.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby moose o death » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:04 pm

no magic kingdom was established within the first 10 pages. at that early stage erfworld was planned to be less than 100 pages and possibly a self contained story.

under those circumstances magic kingdom is just a name. it wouldn't have made sense if rob had called it the magic republic...or worse could have been a major spoiler. but for all we know that's exactly what the MK is. a democratic union of barbarian casters occupying an island.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby dirocyn » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:55 pm

moose o death wrote: magic kingdom is just a name.


Just a name, but names are important. Names are signamancy. The ruler of the Magic Kingdom will either be a former sorcerer's apprentice named King Mickey (a la Kingdom Hearts), or a Stagemancer named Walter.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby DevilDan » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:16 pm

"Magic Kingdom" is first and foremost a gag. It may be just a name, or there may actually be a king. In either case, it's hardly of any import at this point.
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Re: The Return of the Caster Speculation

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:20 pm

dirocyn wrote:
moose o death wrote: magic kingdom is just a name.


Just a name, but names are important. Names are signamancy. The ruler of the Magic Kingdom will either be a former sorcerer's apprentice named King Mickey (a la Kingdom Hearts), or a Stagemancer named Walter.


It could also mean that magic is the king there.
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