Book 2 – Text Updates 009

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Oberon » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:59 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Oberon wrote:This is described by Parson, learned in his talks with Sizemore, as very typical royal behavior: Gang up to wipe out any non-royal who builds a side up to a noticeable level.
Although this is a chap on the non-royal side doing the talking. Not that I think Sizemore would lie, though we don't have many example of non-royal leaders apart from Charlie, who we know has managed to handle it.
Sizemore may be "on the non-royal side", but we haven't heard him express any opinions which would place him as a partisan for either view point. And he has no issue with titles such as "Lord" or "Lady." Sizemore is far better described as a "go with the flow" type than being either pro- or con- with regard to royalty. Remember that he served under Saline IV, and has never said a word against that Royal.
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Oberon wrote:In real fairness, Vinny already called Ansom on this point long ago. Stanley killed a couple of Jetstone scouting units, in what Vinny at least was very willing to chalk up to rather typical behavior and not a provocation calling for Jetstone to build the RCC to go try to curb stomp that uppity non-noble who has managed to grow too big for his non-royal britches.
Although Vinnie also doesn't disagree that there was cause or reason to go after GK and Stanley. He is questioning why Jetstone is so dedicated to the cause however, and committing so much to it.
That pretty much makes my point. Vinny is essentially saying "Yeah, they croaked a few field units. So why does that become a call to holy war, unless it's that Royal thing again?"
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby warriortribble » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:03 pm

Ninjaguineapig wrote:As I said, Stanley would have had no problem creating air superiority, and the RCC ground forces would have to face the uncroaked, who, if not Rocking Out with Stanley, are Dance-Fighting, getting Stanley's overlord bonus and Artifact bonus, Wanda's Master-Class Croakamancer bonus, and Parson's Chief Warlord bonus. And they would have to face this force without having Archons to project Dance Dance Revolution into the sky, and with Stanley, the dwagons and KISS coming down on them after having destroyed the RCC air.
It's worth noting that Charlie went to GK with the intent of destroying the city if necessary. Stanley being there would've only meant Charlie sending in even more Archons. Of course it's quite possible if Stanley didn't flee, Parson would've never contacted Charlie, and he would not have played a significant role in the battle being ignorant of Parson's abilities.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:27 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Stanley would have won the air figth, because there wouldn't be so much archons.

first, Ansom was confident that the RCC could win the battle in the air even before they considered hiring charlie... Air units aren't the only units that can attack dwagons as we also have to take into account all of the anti-air infantry
Second, your saying that in the face of over 2 dozen dwagons, Ansom would not call charlie to bring in additional aerial reinforcements? unlikely
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Ninjaguineapig » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:39 am

Ansom was confident that he could take GK before Parson came into the picture. If Stanley gave Parson free reign, and didn't leave after Jillian broke Wanda's spell, Parson probably could have croaked the entire RCC leadership. If Stanley didn't let Wanda release Jillian in the first place, The dwagons over the lake would have recovered and demolished the rest of the siege.
So, I blame the need for the Volcano uncroaking and TPK on Wanda releasing Jillian. If they kept her, Ansom would have been booped.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Menas » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:56 pm

Ninjaguineapig wrote:Ansom was confident that he could take GK before Parson came into the picture. If Stanley gave Parson free reign, and didn't leave after Jillian broke Wanda's spell, Parson probably could have croaked the entire RCC leadership. If Stanley didn't let Wanda release Jillian in the first place, The dwagons over the lake would have recovered and demolished the rest of the siege.
So, I blame the need for the Volcano uncroaking and TPK on Wanda releasing Jillian. If they kept her, Ansom would have been booped.


- Wanda never released Jillian, Jillian broke free of Wanda's control on her own. That's why Wanda suffered from mental feedback afterwards.
- If Stanley hadn't left when he did, Parson and GK would have been screwed. Stanley doesn't let anyone else be in charge unless he agrees with what they're doing. Normally this includes liking the person who he's allowing to be in charge as well, and things are ok as long as he feels like he 'understands' what is going on. If Stanley hadn't left, Parson wouldn't have had free reign to control things like he did. Stanley would have screwed everything up.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:13 pm

Menas wrote:- Wanda never released Jillian, Jillian broke free of Wanda's control on her own. That's why Wanda suffered from mental feedback afterwards.
- If Stanley hadn't left when he did, Parson and GK would have been screwed. Stanley doesn't let anyone else be in charge unless he agrees with what they're doing. Normally this includes liking the person who he's allowing to be in charge as well, and things are ok as long as he feels like he 'understands' what is going on. If Stanley hadn't left, Parson wouldn't have had free reign to control things like he did. Stanley would have screwed everything up.

- Wanda let Jillian go from the dungeons of GK. I believe this is what was meant by "released her."
- Agreed. If Stanley had stayed at GK and passed all control for military operation to Parson, things may have worked out better for GK then the need for the volcano. But you are completely correct to say that Stanley is too egotistical and also too much of a real tool to understand that he doesn't have the strategy sense of a marbit. As is perfectly illustrated by the following exchange:

Wanda "Every warlord you have appointed has fallen in battle. And it is all due to how you are choosing them, my lord."
Stanley "Oh fer--- Is this about strategy still?"

"Every warlord" implies several. At least more than two. And even after the first two (at least) failed and died, Stanley was perfectly willing to continue with the same methods, blithely ignorant of how stupid it was.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:25 pm

Oberon wrote:"Every warlord" implies several. At least more than two. And even after the first two (at least) failed and died, Stanley was perfectly willing to continue with the same methods, blithely ignorant of how stupid it was.


At least five. In descending order of freshness, Lord Manpower the Temporary, Lady Phat-Singh, Archduke Ferdinand, Sir Leeroy Jenkins and Ensign Toast.

EDIT: corrected, after remark by Menas.
Last edited by BLANDCorporatio on Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Menas » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:33 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Oberon wrote:
Menas wrote:"Every warlord" implies several. At least more than two. And even after the first two (at least) failed and died, Stanley was perfectly willing to continue with the same methods, blithely ignorant of how stupid it was.


At least five. In descending order of freshness, Lord Manpower the Temporary, Lady Phat-Singh, Archduke Ferdinand, Sir Leeroy Jenkins and Ensign Toast.


Oberon deserves credit for that quote - my name got mixed up in there.

And thanks Oberon, I didn't realize he was talking about Wanda releasing Jillian from prison. In that case, however, there's no way to know whether or not Ansom would have had someone else lined up to lead Jillian's flying forces in her place. Seems like someone from TV would have been able to fillin no problem.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:54 pm

Menas wrote:And thanks Oberon, I didn't realize he was talking about Wanda releasing Jillian from prison. In that case, however, there's no way to know whether or not Ansom would have had someone else lined up to lead Jillian's flying forces in her place. Seems like someone from TV would have been able to fillin no problem.
Well, sure. But again I think that the point was not so much about simply replacing Jillian as the leader of the flying forces, but more about the fact that Jillian's release led in a straight line to her wiping out the large force of combat weakened dwagons and basically saving Ansom from death (and incidentally reducing Wanda's efficiency for a while) several turns before he managed to die for good. Until he got better, that is.

And now I'll stop speculating about what other people actually meant. :)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Menas » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:43 pm

Oberon wrote:
Menas wrote:And thanks Oberon, I didn't realize he was talking about Wanda releasing Jillian from prison. In that case, however, there's no way to know whether or not Ansom would have had someone else lined up to lead Jillian's flying forces in her place. Seems like someone from TV would have been able to fillin no problem.
Well, sure. But again I think that the point was not so much about simply replacing Jillian as the leader of the flying forces, but more about the fact that Jillian's release led in a straight line to her wiping out the large force of combat weakened dwagons and basically saving Ansom from death (and incidentally reducing Wanda's efficiency for a while) several turns before he managed to die for good. Until he got better, that is.

And now I'll stop speculating about what other people actually meant. :)


Yeah, I got that. I meant if someone else was leading the forces they could have just as easily scouted and found the dwagons ;-). There's no proof that it had to be Jillian. She was scouting in response to Ansom's request to look for the rest of the force after he got led into the forest and discovered the main force wasn't there. He could have requested that from anyone.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby ftl » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:52 pm

Menas wrote:
Yeah, I got that. I meant if someone else was leading the forces they could have just as easily scouted and found the dwagons ;-). There's no proof that it had to be Jillian. She was scouting in response to Ansom's request to look for the rest of the force after he got led into the forest and discovered the main force wasn't there. He could have requested that from anyone.


She wasn't scouting, though. She was going straight back to Ansom, disobeying his order to scout; it just so happened that that took her straight into the hex with the Dwagons, better than any scouting could have done.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Menas » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:58 pm

ftl wrote:
Menas wrote:
Yeah, I got that. I meant if someone else was leading the forces they could have just as easily scouted and found the dwagons ;-). There's no proof that it had to be Jillian. She was scouting in response to Ansom's request to look for the rest of the force after he got led into the forest and discovered the main force wasn't there. He could have requested that from anyone.


She wasn't scouting, though. She was going straight back to Ansom, disobeying his order to scout; it just so happened that that took her straight into the hex with the Dwagons, better than any scouting could have done.


Well, this is getting to be just a matter of semantics. Yes, she WAS going to give up the search and go straight to Ansom because of Wanda's influence (convincing her there were no wounded dwagons when there were). But she HAD been scouting and as a result found the dwagons just as she was going to make the decision to go to Ansom and reinforce his stack instead of continuing to scout.

There's no proof that her choices caused her to find the dwagons any earlier or later than another scouting group would have found them. There's no way to prove that based on the information we have. It depends on how good the scouts were and whether or not luck was on their side.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby ftl » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:28 pm

Well, this is getting to be just a matter of semantics. Yes, she WAS going to give up the search and go straight to Ansom because of Wanda's influence (convincing her there were no wounded dwagons when there were). But she HAD been scouting and as a result found the dwagons just as she was going to make the decision to go to Ansom and reinforce his stack instead of continuing to scout.


That's not how I read that. She DID give up the search and she DID go straight to Ansom. The dwagons just happened to be along the path to Ansom.

I'll go back and check...

...yeah, rereading it, that's what I'm still sticking with. She dispached webinar away, then took all the best forces and headed to Ansom. By coincidence, that happened to be exactly the right direction to lead the force.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Oberon » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:05 pm

ftl wrote:By coincidence, that happened to be exactly the right direction to lead the force.
Which could not have been the direction any other flying forces leader could have led from. Jillian had the (perhaps dubious) adantage of being sourced from nearby GK. No other leader could have accomplished as much.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby theseus2x » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:52 am

MonteCristo wrote:
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Stanley would have won the air figth, because there wouldn't be so much archons.

first, Ansom was confident that the RCC could win the battle in the air even before they considered hiring charlie... Air units aren't the only units that can attack dwagons as we also have to take into account all of the anti-air infantry
Second, your saying that in the face of over 2 dozen dwagons, Ansom would not call charlie to bring in additional aerial reinforcements? unlikely


I have to admit; that always seemed odd to me. Ansom intended to have Jillian, Jillian's Gwiffons, the Orlys, Vinny and the Doombats as his only air-to-air combat force. Yes, they would have been supported by Archers (Gumps = no; they wouldn't be in trees, they'd be over the city.) but really, that seems very weak to me. Stanley still had a large (50+?) Dwagon contingent at the time.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:28 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Stanley would have won the air figth, because there wouldn't be so much archons.

first, Ansom was confident that the RCC could win the battle in the air even before they considered hiring charlie... Air units aren't the only units that can attack dwagons as we also have to take into account all of the anti-air infantry
Second, your saying that in the face of over 2 dozen dwagons, Ansom would not call charlie to bring in additional aerial reinforcements? unlikely


Ansom didn't hire Charley when Stanley still had 50+ dwagons. He hired Jillian for that. Also don't forget that Charley had two turns time to concentrate 30 archons near Gobwin Knob. Something he probably wouldnÄt have done if he developed an interest in parson and his bracers.

theseus2x wrote:I have to admit; that always seemed odd to me. Ansom intended to have Jillian, Jillian's Gwiffons, the Orlys, Vinny and the Doombats as his only air-to-air combat force. Yes, they would have been supported by Archers (Gumps = no; they wouldn't be in trees, they'd be over the city.) but really, that seems very weak to me. Stanley still had a large (50+?) Dwagon contingent at the time.


Stanley had strong air forces, but was weak on infantry. Ansom intended to take the city by ground. A faint in the tunnels to draw the troops there, then attacking the walls. Because they weren't deep forests or a lake the infantry could have fought back if they were attacked by the dwagons. That, together with the archers and Jillians air troops probably would have kept the dwagons long enough at bay to take the garrison. At least that's what I think.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Menas » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:21 pm

Oberon wrote:
ftl wrote:By coincidence, that happened to be exactly the right direction to lead the force.
Which could not have been the direction any other flying forces leader could have led from. Jillian had the (perhaps dubious) adantage of being sourced from nearby GK. No other leader could have accomplished as much.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. You guys are listing presumptions as fact. The story didn't cover where Jillian's forces would have been if Jillian hadn't returned to them, nor who else could have led them, nor what other flying forces would have been available to scout, nor what path they would have taken.

If you guys want to stick with 'the dwagons never would have been found if Jillian hadn't been there' be my guest, but there's no proof to your argument. There's no proof they WOULD have been found if she hadn't been there either. But if you're going to make the statement that they never would have been found without Jillian, then I'm going to call it what it is - an opinion. Don't state it as fact.

Secondly, it's possible for time to transpire between panels. We don't know how much scouting Jillian did prior to making the decision to return to Ansom.

Lastly, there was definitely a certain range of area that any proficient scout would know needed to be scouted to perform Ansom's request. The RCC forces knew how far the dwagons could fly, how much move they had used up to get to the siege stacks, and how much move they would have had left after that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby theseus2x » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:08 am

Menas wrote:If you guys want to stick with 'the dwagons never would have been found if Jillian hadn't been there' be my guest, but there's no proof to your argument. There's no proof they WOULD have been found if she hadn't been there either. But if you're going to make the statement that they never would have been found without Jillian, then I'm going to call it what it is - an opinion. Don't state it as fact.


Its not a totally unfair assumption. Look :

1) Parson didn't think the Dwagons would be found at all on that turn.
2) Parson had an "aw fuck - Jillian's out there" moment. One of his few mistakes was banking too much on Wanda's assurances.
3) Jillian's decision to dump Webinar and run off with the Archons may have been somewhat predictable from our perspective, but it must have seemed a "chaotic/random" event to Parson.
4) The flying group with Webinar, the Gwiffons and the Archons was never supposed to go in the direction of the lake. They were supposed to guard the siege. Going over the lake only happened because of Jillian.
5) As we've pointed out, the RCC had VERY few flyers. Jillian and the Archons were pretty much the only force around with the move both to find them AND engage them. (Ansom and Vinny did, too. But remember they didn't know they were there.)
6) Aside from one of Vinny's bats, who else in the RCC could have found them on that turn?
7) Vinny didn't seem to be sending his bats to the lake to check. In fact, according to Parson, the RCC didn't even know the lake was there.

and finally :

8) Someone might say "well, they could find them on the following turn or later" - no. Parson wasn't leaving them there. He was going to have them either croak Ansom or smash the siege.

So yes - I think its a safe assumption that if Jillian hadn't been involved, the stack wouldn't have been found.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby theseus2x » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:10 am

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Stanley had strong air forces, but was weak on infantry. Ansom intended to take the city by ground. A faint in the tunnels to draw the troops there, then attacking the walls. Because they weren't deep forests or a lake the infantry could have fought back if they were attacked by the dwagons. That, together with the archers and Jillians air troops probably would have kept the dwagons long enough at bay to take the garrison. At least that's what I think.


I don't know - can Infantry normally engage Dwagons if they aren't Archers?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Menas » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:44 pm

theseus2x wrote:So yes - I think its a safe assumption that if Jillian hadn't been involved, the stack wouldn't have been found.


That's fine. I don't agree. The RCC would have had Jillian's forces without Jillian. They had Archons. They could have hired more Archons. They had bats. They could have gotten the job done with or without Jillian.
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