Book 2 – Page 16

[splintermute]

Concerning the extra megalogwiffs - maybe Jetstone made them. This is the first time we've seen two allied royal overlords in one capital city (Jillian was still a barbarian when she visited Don in TV). Maybe there's a mechanism that lets you lend your city's production capacity to a visiting overlord. It's not something Slately would normally do, but in this situation he could easily be convinced that more air defense was necessary, and that megalogwiffs are more valuable than whatever orlys and unipegataurs he could have produced.

[dan2178]

Concerning the extra megalogwiffs - maybe Jetstone made them. This is the first time we've seen two allied royal overlords in one capital city (Jillian was still a barbarian when she visited Don in TV). Maybe there's a mechanism that lets you lend your city's production capacity to a visiting overlord. It's not something Slately would normally do, but in this situation he could easily be convinced that more air defense was necessary, and that megalogwiffs are more valuable than whatever orlys and unipegataurs he could have produced.

There's a couple of explanations:

1) Oss can't count
2) Four of the megalogwiffs and who knows how many gwiffs were veiled from Jetstone
3) Your idea that Jetstone can produce other side's unit if that side's ruler is in the city
4) Jillian can upgrade gwiffs to megalogwiffs via spending smuckers. Instead of 6 megalos and 26 gwiffs, she now has 10 megalos and 22 gwiffs.

The important thing is that Parson's calcuation was based on FAQ having 6 megalos and 26 gwiffs. Adding four more megalos could change the odds from a 70ish-90ish percent chance of success to 50-50 or worse.

[the_tick_rules]

I'm going with she made them In Faq's realm.

[theseus2x]

Although from the only times we've seen them in action (the last summer update) we didn't even read about them biting. They did seem to use their bodies though to incapacitate enemies (Duncan Scone).

Well, we saw the "normal" gwiffons in combat in Book 1. They bit. As for Scone's capture, that doesn't seem to be a normal attack, but rather something special she was doing to capture a Level 6 warlord.

[theseus2x]

Concerning the extra megalogwiffs - maybe Jetstone made them. This is the first time we've seen two allied royal overlords in one capital city (Jillian was still a barbarian when she visited Don in TV). Maybe there's a mechanism that lets you lend your city's production capacity to a visiting overlord. It's not something Slately would normally do, but in this situation he could easily be convinced that more air defense was necessary, and that megalogwiffs are more valuable than whatever orlys and unipegataurs he could have produced.

I *very* much doubt this. If it were practical for Jetstone to pop Gwiffons and Megas, Ansom surely would have used them in Book 1. Instead, RCC had to rely entirely on Vinny (bats) and Jillian (gwiffons and orlys).

[splintermute]

Concerning the extra megalogwiffs - maybe Jetstone made them. This is the first time we've seen two allied royal overlords in one capital city (Jillian was still a barbarian when she visited Don in TV). Maybe there's a mechanism that lets you lend your city's production capacity to a visiting overlord. It's not something Slately would normally do, but in this situation he could easily be convinced that more air defense was necessary, and that megalogwiffs are more valuable than whatever orlys and unipegataurs he could have produced.

I *very* much doubt this. If it were practical for Jetstone to pop Gwiffons and Megas, Ansom surely would have used them in Book 1. Instead, RCC had to rely entirely on Vinny (bats) and Jillian (gwiffons and orlys).

They wouldn't have been able to do it in Book 1, because they didn't have an overlord from a side capable of producing gwiffons - Jillian was still a barbarian at the time. If there was a mechanism like this, it would operate very rarely, because it would require a visiting overlord. From what we've seen so far, overlords almost never leave their capitals, the exceptions being Stanley, when he thought GK would fall, King County, to settle an honor challenge, and Jillian, because she's crazy (and maybe Dickie at Sansabelt - we don't know if it was Haggar's capital) - there's no indication that Don (after his grand tour), or Charlie, or Slately, or Bea, or Saline, or Banhammer have ever left their palaces.

[Ninjaguineapig]

The Dwagons and Megalogwiffs are fighting in the air, some things are more important than size; like mobility and evasion. If the megalogwiffs can't catch the dwagons, they're going down fast.

Jillian does describe a Megalogwiff flying fast in the summer updates:

To his credit, he understood immediately, said nothing, and bolted for the tower entrance.

"Capture!" Jillian shouted to her stack. Her mount took it as a command. It flew her in fast, shouldering its way between the Giants, and planted itself on the fleeing warlord. The megalogwiff pinned him in the doorway and enveloped his body, leaving only his head exposed. This time, she did not swing.

So even for their bulk it sounds as if they can be swift when need be. Plus there are at least a few screens available to slow (some) dwagons down a bit - the Griffons, and Jetstone's few Unipegataurs and Orlies.

Hmm... Missed that one. So the megalogwiffs can move fast. That changes things considerably. If things come down to an air force battle, Wanda's in trouble. The dwagons and archons will be able to beat the megalogwiffs (with Oss and Wanda's bonuses, plus the archons' natural magic, plus the dwagons numerical advantage), but will take heavy casualties.

[Watsit Hoohow]

As for 1: Bigger does not necessarily mean better.

It's true that there are exceptions to bigger = better, but usually, bigger and rarer is a pretty good indication of power.

It is stated that up until their last dual, Ansom had always defeated Ossomer. Even in their last dual, it is not clear who would have won even though Ossomer got in the first big hit. Who gets the first hit really does not matter, it is who gets the last.

I'm not sure if bigger = better should be applied when the main determining factor between two Warlords is level. Though it's implied Ossomer would have won if Wanda hadn't interfered.

Besides, Archons have taken out dwagons 1 on 1 and they are much smaller.

If memory serves, the Archons were taking out wounded Dwagons. I think the last panel in this was more of a hypothetical scenario (also they were paired up with Transylvito Warlords). Archons are quite possibly more of a rarity than Dwagons are. I'm not sure if we ever learned how much a Dwagon's upkeep went for, but Archons are said to be pretty expensive. Charlie is really only able to afford so many because their main function is to go out and make money.

Alternate explanation: Archons are just cool like that.

Now, for 2: Assuming that they are more powerful than dwagons simply because they are more rare is forgetting the fact that the dwagons themselves, generally, are as rare, if not actually more so than the megas.

While it's true that Dwagons are an Arkenhammer-exclusive unit, they're actually pretty numerous in comparison to some other big-heavy units. 2-3 per turn is actually a fair amount more in comparison to, say Archons. Certainly more than Faq could make on a good turn.

Jillian could have popped megalogwiffs long before now if she could have paid for their upkeep, nothing special was needed. But she couldn't, so she only popped regular gwiffons.

Barbarians can't pop things. They can only pay upkeep from a purse. So when she lost all of her Megalogwiffs, that was it - kaput.

Dwagons, on the other hand, usually only pop in the wild and, from my understanding, the only reason they pop in GK is because Stanley has the Arkenpliers. Before he attuned to them, they could not be popped by a faction and they could not be tamed. The reason we see so many of them now is because Parson figured out a way exploit the rules and because GK has an incredible amount of schmuckers to draw on to pay for their upkeep. If Jillian had access to the wealth that GK does, we would have seen megalogwiffs long before now, and a lot of them. Yeah, so rare =/= more powerful.

I don't think the rules were exploited so much as it simply hadn't occurred to Stanley to send out scouts instead of just going out himself (Stanley's acknowledged to be pretty dim). Gobwin Knob was also one of the richest sides in Erfworld after Sizemore blasted up a load more gems. So, if Jillian had the resources Gobwin Knob did, she could have a lot of pretty much anything.

Not to mention Jillian has been receiving heavy financial support from a fairly powerful side in Transylvito. So she does have a fair amount of resources to draw on here. Megalos are simply going to be rarer than Dwagons between Faq and Gobwin Knob.

[MonteCristo]

Now, for 2: Assuming that they are more powerful than dwagons simply because they are more rare is forgetting the fact that the dwagons themselves, generally, are as rare, if not actually more so than the megas. Jillian could have popped megalogwiffs long before now if she could have paid for their upkeep, nothing special was needed. But she couldn't, so she only popped regular gwiffons. Dwagons, on the other hand, usually only pop in the wild and, from my understanding, the only reason they pop in GK is because Stanley has the Arkenpliers. Before he attuned to them, they could not be popped by a faction and they could not be tamed. The reason we see so many of them now is because Parson figured out a way exploit the rules and because GK has an incredible amount of schmuckers to draw on to pay for their upkeep. If Jillian had access to the wealth that GK does, we would have seen megalogwiffs long before now, and a lot of them. Yeah, so rare =/= more powerful.

It has NEVER been stated that Dwagon popping is a power granted by the hammer, nor that dwagons are exclusive to GK
it is very possible that Gk was able to pop dwagons before Stanely found the hammer and that other sides in erfworld can pop dwagons aswell
If dwagon popping were an artifact power we would have been told that the arken hammer has the power to "tame and pop" dwagons as opposed to just taming them

[Rajin96]

Now, for 2: Assuming that they are more powerful than dwagons simply because they are more rare is forgetting the fact that the dwagons themselves, generally, are as rare, if not actually more so than the megas. Jillian could have popped megalogwiffs long before now if she could have paid for their upkeep, nothing special was needed. But she couldn't, so she only popped regular gwiffons. Dwagons, on the other hand, usually only pop in the wild and, from my understanding, the only reason they pop in GK is because Stanley has the Arkenpliers. Before he attuned to them, they could not be popped by a faction and they could not be tamed. The reason we see so many of them now is because Parson figured out a way exploit the rules and because GK has an incredible amount of schmuckers to draw on to pay for their upkeep. If Jillian had access to the wealth that GK does, we would have seen megalogwiffs long before now, and a lot of them. Yeah, so rare =/= more powerful.

It has NEVER been stated that Dwagon popping is a power granted by the hammer, nor that dwagons are exclusive to GK
it is very possible that Gk was able to pop dwagons before Stanely found the hammer and that other sides in erfworld can pop dwagons aswell
If dwagon popping were an artifact power we would have been told that the arken hammer has the power to "tame and pop" dwagons as opposed to just taming them

The arkenhammer allows Stanley to "tame and control" dwagons. Part of that control, I am assuming, is enabling them to be popped by his faction. As for them being exclusive to GK, at this point in time, we have not seen another side using them. So while, yes, another side somewhere in Erfworld might be able to pop them, they have not been encountered yet. Because of this, they are exclusive to GK...so far.

[1Luv]

-first post on the Erfworld forums-

I notice a lot of discussions of MegaGwiffs vs. Dwagons.

My own thoughts are that Dwagons are individually weaker than megagwiffs on the most part, but dwagons can get much larger than a megagwiff.

I think people forget that megagwiffs are popped units, and dwagons are captured units(it's like humans v. gobwins. Dwagons are like natural allies to Stanley because of the hammer)

Also, if you remember in the story it seems megagwiffs take a LOT longer to pop, whereas Stanley can go out(using Parson's strategy),and tame a number of dwagons every turn

You're also forgetting all of these dwagons have been fighting under Wanda for a number of terms, so they may be higher-level than the megagwiffs...

[BCCroaker]

Now, for 2: Assuming that they are more powerful than dwagons simply because they are more rare is forgetting the fact that the dwagons themselves, generally, are as rare, if not actually more so than the megas. Jillian could have popped megalogwiffs long before now if she could have paid for their upkeep, nothing special was needed. But she couldn't, so she only popped regular gwiffons. Dwagons, on the other hand, usually only pop in the wild and, from my understanding, the only reason they pop in GK is because Stanley has the Arkenpliers. Before he attuned to them, they could not be popped by a faction and they could not be tamed. The reason we see so many of them now is because Parson figured out a way exploit the rules and because GK has an incredible amount of schmuckers to draw on to pay for their upkeep. If Jillian had access to the wealth that GK does, we would have seen megalogwiffs long before now, and a lot of them. Yeah, so rare =/= more powerful.

It has NEVER been stated that Dwagon popping is a power granted by the hammer, nor that dwagons are exclusive to GK
it is very possible that Gk was able to pop dwagons before Stanely found the hammer and that other sides in erfworld can pop dwagons aswell
If dwagon popping were an artifact power we would have been told that the arken hammer has the power to "tame and pop" dwagons as opposed to just taming them

I seem to recall from a text update in book 2 that I can't find anymore, that GK were razing captured cities and Sizemore was rebuilding them. I think he said that were being standardised to produce GK type units and that when the cities got to high enough level they would pop dwagons. Please correct me if I have misrembered.

[dan2178]

Now, for 2: Assuming that they are more powerful than dwagons simply because they are more rare is forgetting the fact that the dwagons themselves, generally, are as rare, if not actually more so than the megas. Jillian could have popped megalogwiffs long before now if she could have paid for their upkeep, nothing special was needed. But she couldn't, so she only popped regular gwiffons. Dwagons, on the other hand, usually only pop in the wild and, from my understanding, the only reason they pop in GK is because Stanley has the Arkenpliers. Before he attuned to them, they could not be popped by a faction and they could not be tamed. The reason we see so many of them now is because Parson figured out a way exploit the rules and because GK has an incredible amount of schmuckers to draw on to pay for their upkeep. If Jillian had access to the wealth that GK does, we would have seen megalogwiffs long before now, and a lot of them. Yeah, so rare =/= more powerful.

It has NEVER been stated that Dwagon popping is a power granted by the hammer, nor that dwagons are exclusive to GK
it is very possible that Gk was able to pop dwagons before Stanely found the hammer and that other sides in erfworld can pop dwagons aswell
If dwagon popping were an artifact power we would have been told that the arken hammer has the power to "tame and pop" dwagons as opposed to just taming them

I seem to recall from a text update in book 2 that I can't find anymore, that GK were razing captured cities and Sizemore was rebuilding them. I think he said that were being standardised to produce GK type units and that when the cities got to high enough level they would pop dwagons. Please correct me if I have misrembered.

That's right. Captured cities that produced units that GK didn't want (perhaps slow heavy units?) were razed and new GK type cities were created. For example, suppose GK captured Dhystone which can produce Gumps. If GK doesn't want to produce Gumps at all then they'd raze it. If they want Gumps then they'd let it be.

Level 1 GK cities produce infantry (men) and Twolls
Level 2 GK cities can produce spidews and warlords (men)
Level 3+ GK cities can produce Dwagons

[Watsit Hoohow]

Just saying, but there'd be a precedent for Dwagons not necessarily being a Gobwin Knob exclusive. One of the Summer Updates mentions that other sides can pop Archons (though at a much slower rate than Charlescomm).

[1Luv]

I'm pretty sure any side could pop just about any type of unit that isn't a specific warlord/person.

I tend to believe that sides pop what compliments their Warlords/royalty rather than just random units.

Jetstone(and by extension,Ossomer), seem to like to use lots of infantry, and use rather standard forms of attack(walk up in bulk,stabbity-stab-stab), whereas transylvito tends to be based on air units.

Transylvito can pop say, Pikers, or gwiffons, but it's more conomical and makes more sense for htem to pop Bats because their warlords cna use them to better effect.

FAQ likes gwiffs and megagwiffs because Jillian uses them effectively.

We've also seen evidence that different warlords and royalty prefer one type of unit over another.
Ossomer talks about how he likes having infantry(I think they were pikers or something, it was a text update), for example.

[fjolnir]

Dwagons are wild units, I assume that Stanley is not the first one Capture some, but the Arkenhammer basically controls these units easily and allows you to add them to your Build Queue, The pliers don't give you control of any new units, but rather make all units tameable and adds the benefit of the removal of upkeep... The Arkendish on the other hand probably tames archons in a similar fashion as the hammer, AND since it's in the hands of a capable 'Mancer it commands mastery over thinkamancy as well.

[Oberon]

So, how high CAN Archon's fly? Do the hexes go up to infinity or if you go up enough is there ANOTHER hex?

You're not the only person to speculate about these things:

[quote=Parson]As he watched the fireworks show unfold, Parson realized something disturbing about himself.

He'd been in Erfworld hardly a week. But almost every thought he'd had during that time was along the lines of "What am I looking at? How does it work? What are the military applications of it?" It was now a habit.

So as the sky filled with pretty little flying women making a magical light show, he was wondering if the sparks they were shooting were Foolamancy or Shockmancy (or even Thinkamancy), and whether or not they could inflict damage on an attacker. He wondered if there was an altitude limit to the airspace zone, which led him to wonder if different kinds of flying units had different max altitudes. If so, would they be able to use the highest-flying units for spy plane missions?

From Summer update 8.

I was also surprised to see Duncan Scone beside her before she left the Tower.

Can someone point out the update with Duncan, please? I do not remember this guy.

[MonteCristo]

The arkenhammer allows Stanley to "tame and control" dwagons. Part of that control, I am assuming, is enabling them to be popped by his faction. As for them being exclusive to GK, at this point in time, we have not seen another side using them. So while, yes, another side somewhere in Erfworld might be able to pop them, they have not been encountered yet. Because of this, they are exclusive to GK...so far.

It is your assumption and nothing more... nothing has said that the hammer is what allows Stanely to pop dwagons, it is as such it does not help your arguement that dwagons are rarer than Megalos

Can someone point out the update with Duncan, please? I do not remember this guy.

I forget which update it was, It was the same update with the giants...
Duncan Scone was an enemy warlord that Jillian captured and then turned, and then made him into her chief warlod as he was the highest level warlord she had

Dwagons are wild units, I assume that Stanley is not the first one Capture some, but the Arkenhammer basically controls these units easily and allows you to add them to your Build Queue, The pliers don't give you control of any new units, but rather make all units tameable and adds the benefit of the removal of upkeep... The Arkendish on the other hand probably tames archons in a similar fashion as the hammer, AND since it's in the hands of a capable 'Mancer it commands mastery over thinkamancy as well.

As parson found out from the decrypted Archons, it is uncertain if Archons are actually related to the arkendish
Parson found that charlscomm is capable of producing archons much faster than other cities, but the archons could not say for sure this was an effect of the dish; it may be a quality of the city itself
It is however certain that the arkendish's primary power is overpowered and unlimited thinkamancy... and their is nothing to suggest that charlie is a "mancer" of anykind

I'm pretty sure any side could pop just about any type of unit that isn't a specific warlord/person.

I tend to believe that sides pop what compliments their Warlords/royalty rather than just random units.

Jetstone(and by extension,Ossomer), seem to like to use lots of infantry, and use rather standard forms of attack(walk up in bulk,stabbity-stab-stab), whereas transylvito tends to be based on air units.

Transylvito can pop say, Pikers, or gwiffons, but it's more conomical and makes more sense for htem to pop Bats because their warlords cna use them to better effect.

FAQ likes gwiffs and megagwiffs because Jillian uses them effectively.

We've also seen evidence that different warlords and royalty prefer one type of unit over another.
Ossomer talks about how he likes having infantry(I think they were pikers or something, it was a text update), for example.
I'm pretty sure any side could pop just about any type of unit that isn't a specific warlord/person.

I tend to believe that sides pop what compliments their Warlords/royalty rather than just random units.

Jetstone(and by extension,Ossomer), seem to like to use lots of infantry, and use rather standard forms of attack(walk up in bulk,stabbity-stab-stab), whereas transylvito tends to be based on air units.

Transylvito can pop say, Pikers, or gwiffons, but it's more conomical and makes more sense for htem to pop Bats because their warlords cna use them to better effect.

FAQ likes gwiffs and megagwiffs because Jillian uses them effectively.

We've also seen evidence that different warlords and royalty prefer one type of unit over another.
Ossomer talks about how he likes having infantry(I think they were pikers or something, it was a text update), for example.

no...
Rulers and possibly cheifwarlord's by proxy get to choose what units they want to pop, but what units they can pop is based on a very limited selection.

This is made clear in the 2nd text update. Captured cities pop certain kind of units, however if you raze the city and have a dirtamancer rebuild it, the city changes and converts to the same type as the capitol the dirtamancer belongs to. For instance, a unaroyal city would pop whatever kind of unit that unaroyal had even while under GK control, but after being raze and converted to a gk type city, it could not longer produce unaroyral type troops and could now only produce GK type units.

TV could only pop gwiffens if they were to capture a Faq city and not raze and rebuild it as one of their own. Without a faq city, they must stick to Bats, dolls, and skanks. In a similar case, Jillian can use those cities she captured to either produce whatever type of unit was common for them, or she can raze them and rebuild them as Faq cities to create more gwiffens

[theseus2x]

Barbarians can't pop things. They can only pay upkeep from a purse. So when she lost all of her Megalogwiffs, that was it - kaput.

Not ready to write this off entirely. I mean, if we believe that Jillian/Barbarian was incapable of acquiring (not popping) new units for her group, then we'd have to believe that the Gwiffons still with her in Book 1 were solely ones who had survived Faq's fall and her subsequent campaigns. This despite the fact she was constantly getting captured, presumably with losses to her units.

I would speculate she DID have a way of getting small numbers of replacement gwiffons, but this wasn't viable with the Megas, due to upkeep issues.

[Oberon]

Lastly, I believe Jillian has veiled and hidden Archons in her battle space. And Archons can detect veils (they knew Bogroll was not Parson, without having cause to be suspicious in the first place). Smart warlords have a very good chance of detecting them as well. But if the Archons are there, there's absolutely no chance Jillian won't be notified about it if Wanda is in the battlespace.

However, while Jillian might have Archons, Wanda does. And Charlie knows that. Would Charlie send veiled archons to defend against other archons, knowing the deception has such little chance of working?

And would every Jetstone warlord, caster, and king fail to pierce that veil, when it is within their battlespace also? I think not. And even if the odds were low this would be a foolish thing for Charlie to do, when he is being pushed into the position of Toolholder-vs-Royal by the Jetstone side. Charlie may not want to see GK be successful, but I'm sure he'd shed no tears for Jetstone, either. His best bet is the "let's you and him fight" strategy which he is indeed pursuing. As a mercenary he makes his best money in times of war, and when all sides are small.

Lastly, I'm pretty much the only one here to expect Wanda to be Notwanda, and really just a decoy. Why would Jillian suspect a veil?

I highly doubt that it is a veiled unit posing as Wanda. For one thing, the veiled notWanda would have to be able to carry on a convincing conversation, and the veil doesn't seem to provide false conversation context. All veils we've seen have been purely visual, not audible. Veiled Bogroll said nothing, remember? Well, he said nothing until he croaked Anson. That should be a fair illustration of the limits of veiled units. Because if veiled units had an audible component to their deception there would have been no reason why Bogroll didn't carry out the deception with a suitably erudite speech while surrendering.

Alternate explanation: Archons are just cool like that.

This is it, if of course this is what you think is "cool like that" in a story with a real plot. Throughout Book 1 Archons were shown to have "the ability needed at that time". No matter what that ability might be. Fast/instantaneous movement, power beams, spot veiled units, always know if there are or are not spells on a unit, flight, nets/capture, "pep talk" to break thinkamancy spells (seriously, they didn't even need to cast anything for that one...), transmit messages, "spell security", etc, etc. Absolutely on demand, every single time. The only thing that even slowed them down was a certain volcano, and then only because their leader had foolishly ordered them to end turn rather than do what he sent them there to do.

I do enjoy the story, seriously. But I can't help but spot the artillery sized holes in the fabric of the plot. My willing suspension of disbelief has had to work a lot of overtime with Erfworld.