Book 2 – Page 16

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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby Sinrus » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:05 am

They could have easily been promoted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:25 am

theseus2x wrote:This is contradicted by Sizemore's Text Updates. When GK conquers a city, it still pops whatever it was popping before it was conquered. Sizemore needs to come in so it can pop Twolls and Dwagons and what have. Its implied that this is the norm.


But didn't Stanley raze the Faq cities and leave the ruins unclaimed? That was why he was fleeing there to start his new side (if he hadn't they would have been GK cities popping Faq units). So if Caesar had claimed the ruins for TV, as a representative of a capital side, when the cities were rebuilt they would be popping TV units.

I guess since Jillian was a barbarian (or a former heir to the side that used to own the ruined cities) she didn't override the unit types the cities previously popped. Though that is interesting - if Stanley's had become a barbarian and then started a new side on the ruined Faq sites, what units would he have got...

Also : While Jillian didn't have a city at the time, I find it hard to believe that she still had so many units after getting captured so many times. Its my belief barbarian mercenaries have another way of replenishing troops. The only reason why she didn't have a Mega was because of the cost/upkeep.


I guess I could imagine some kind of barbarian market, a bit like the magic kingdom, where you can generate new troops if you have the shumckers. Although I think it is more in the barbarian image to have your starting horde (in Jillian's case the troops she had from Faq) and the only way you will replenish them is by starting your own side (or I guess a barbarian might be able to capture and turn units). Otherwise as the turns pass and you go round barbarizing your forces will naturally decrease (either through conflict or disbanding due to lack of shumckers).

Llord_Droll wrote:Slately can't ask for Dolls and Skanks because they are garrison units.


I think you are thinking of Goyles (hence Guard Goyles). But even as garrison they can be reassigned to field units if Don wished.

Dolls on the other hand... well, Jetstone has its own Dollamancer. If Ansom had wanted them he could have got them off his own side.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby Kadasbrass » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:25 am

He doesn't have alot of money to promote them with. He spent it all on Jillian instead.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:49 pm

MonteCristo wrote:i think the dwagon was real at that moment...
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F114.jpg
The way i see it, Jack created a bunch of fake bats... those are the bats we see in panel 3
Jillian stabs the real dwagon, and the gwiffen bites it's neck, but it did not actually die; for at the moment jack made the switch... the dead dwagon was an illusion and the real one mixed with that pack of fake bats... in panel 6, the pack of bats is where the real dwagon was... Stanely and Jack flying away was more foolamancy, they were really in the pack of fake bats with the dwagon that was again seen in panels 8 and 9... the "crypis" casting aswell was just for show to make it seem like they disappeared unmounted


Ya know, be that as it may, I think randomstar found an example of a veil clearly working when people were suspecting it- the crypsys thing made Stanley and Jack invisible to Jillian and co. Also in Book 2, even though Thufir Hawat and his archers realize the dwagons floating above are not real, they are still visible.

Alas for me, these are mere technicalities. This current text update informs us that Jack sees Wanda flying in front of him. Doing some hunting, I think we can see Jack here in panel 9, right between Wanda and Ossomer's heads. Huh. So I guess that is actually Wanda. What a shame.

I'm not taking this hat off though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:03 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:But didn't Stanley raze the Faq cities and leave the ruins unclaimed? That was why he was fleeing there to start his new side (if he hadn't they would have been GK cities popping Faq units). So if Caesar had claimed the ruins for TV, as a representative of a capital side, when the cities were rebuilt they would be popping TV units.

I guess since Jillian was a barbarian (or a former heir to the side that used to own the ruined cities) she didn't override the unit types the cities previously popped. Though that is interesting - if Stanley's had become a barbarian and then started a new side on the ruined Faq sites, what units would he have got...

Well it's kind of iffy...
In sizemore's update it was mentioned that the cities converted to GK cities when HE was doing the remodeling... at the very least it means that if you use a dirtamancer to change a city then it's type MUST change to the same as the dirtamancer's side; but it may also mean that a dirtamancer is the ONLY unit that can change a city's type

so in otherwrods, if TV claimed the ruins and rebuilt them, if they did not have a dirtamancer, they would HAVE to remain as Faq cities... they could only become TV cities if they got a dirtamancer... though it is possible that a dirtamancer is not required and that it could be that a ruler gets to choose whether the city remains as it was, or if they want to change the city to the same type as their own. Though razing the city is a requirement still

I guess I could imagine some kind of barbarian market, a bit like the magic kingdom, where you can generate new troops if you have the shumckers. Although I think it is more in the barbarian image to have your starting horde (in Jillian's case the troops she had from Faq) and the only way you will replenish them is by starting your own side (or I guess a barbarian might be able to capture and turn units). Otherwise as the turns pass and you go round barbarizing your forces will naturally decrease (either through conflict or disbanding due to lack of shumckers).

Y'know taking a second thought on it, i do kind of agree that their might be a way for barbarians to pop more units... i mean i think it's presumable that Barbarians can act like natural allies, and natural allies if they have money are able to pop more units even without the use of a city

sinrus wrote:Slately can't ask for Dolls and Skanks because they are garrison units.

First, just because we saw some as garrison units does NOT mean they are ONLY garrison units
second, only reason i mentioned them is because they were the first ones to pop in my head without taking time to look back...
Third, my overall point was that TV had air units and the RCC should have asked for more of them
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby Watsit Hoohow » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:06 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Y'know taking a second thought on it, i do kind of agree that their might be a way for barbarians to pop more units... i mean i think it's presumable that Barbarians can act like natural allies, and natural allies if they have money are able to pop more units even without the use of a city


I don't think this is necessarily true. Natural allies are more like sides that aren't sides. They're independent entities that hook up into alliances with established sides for benefits they can't get themselves.

Barbarians are more of a "filler force." They're basically the random units populating Erfworld to harass sides, populate the otherwise-barren areas (like ruins), maybe do some mercenary-work (not everybody can be like Charlie), etc. They pop in the wild, so as a formless entity there's really no need for there to be a system in which a particular subtribe of Barbarians to add to their numbers, there's a fair number of newly-popped subtribes to take their place! The only reason it was brought up was because a particular character MIGHT have needed such a system. That's a pretty big might, too.

First, just because we saw some as garrison units does NOT mean they are ONLY garrison units
second, only reason i mentioned them is because they were the first ones to pop in my head without taking time to look back...
Third, my overall point was that TV had air units and the RCC should have asked for more of them


Well, Transylvito didn't really buy the whole royalty scheme until Unaroyal fell. The RCC could crushed Gobwin Knob (minus Parson) pretty handily. So they sent a token force of Vinny and some bats to make it look like they were part of the alliance and washed their hands of it... until Stanely got a little too close for comfort, anyhow. Not to mention Transylvito generally seems pretty unwilling to get their hands dirty in a foreign conflict. They seem to either send very little, or they send a proxy, for the RCC and RCC2 respectively.

TV had air units, but the RCC didn't think it needed them. If Parson hadn't been found, they wouldn't have.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:03 pm

Watsit Hoohow wrote:Well, Transylvito didn't really buy the whole royalty scheme until Unaroyal fell. The RCC could crushed Gobwin Knob (minus Parson) pretty handily. So they sent a token force of Vinny and some bats to make it look like they were part of the alliance and washed their hands of it... until Stanely got a little too close for comfort, anyhow. Not to mention Transylvito generally seems pretty unwilling to get their hands dirty in a foreign conflict. They seem to either send very little, or they send a proxy, for the RCC and RCC2 respectively.

TV had air units, but the RCC didn't think it needed them. If Parson hadn't been found, they wouldn't have.

Well it goes back to the original discussion about the air forces the RCC brought to take on GK...
When it comes down to it, despite how large of a force they brought with them, Stanely's dwagons was still his most powerful card. As such, the RCC should have taken more care to build up a sizebale airforce to help counter the dwagons... thus leading to asking TV to bring in more air unit since that seems to be a specialty of there's
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby theseus2x » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:31 am

MonteCristo wrote:
Sieggy wrote:Which raises the question of how Jillian was able to grab onto the belly of the Dwagon and gut shot him. If it was illusory, she should have simply grabbed air and commenced to falling . . . Unless there's an Erf mechanic a la Wile E. Coyote that gravity affects you only when you notice it . . .

i think the dwagon was real at that moment...
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F114.jpg
The way i see it, Jack created a bunch of fake bats... those are the bats we see in panel 3
Jillian stabs the real dwagon, and the gwiffen bites it's neck, but it did not actually die; for at the moment jack made the switch... the dead dwagon was an illusion and the real one mixed with that pack of fake bats... in panel 6, the pack of bats is where the real dwagon was... Stanely and Jack flying away was more foolamancy, they were really in the pack of fake bats with the dwagon that was again seen in panels 8 and 9... the "crypis" casting aswell was just for show to make it seem like they disappeared unmounted


I agree. I think there was far more going on in that scene than we know about.

So far, however : Absolutely no uses of foolomancy have demonstrated actual substance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:10 am

MonteCristo wrote:Well it's kind of iffy...
In sizemore's update it was mentioned that the cities converted to GK cities when HE was doing the remodeling... at the very least it means that if you use a dirtamancer to change a city then it's type MUST change to the same as the dirtamancer's side; but it may also mean that a dirtamancer is the ONLY unit that can change a city's type

so in otherwrods, if TV claimed the ruins and rebuilt them, if they did not have a dirtamancer, they would HAVE to remain as Faq cities... they could only become TV cities if they got a dirtamancer... though it is possible that a dirtamancer is not required and that it could be that a ruler gets to choose whether the city remains as it was, or if they want to change the city to the same type as their own. Though razing the city is a requirement still


Good point. Although I thought Dirtmancers could make the city better at that phase (I might be misremembering something from the summer updates when they were fixing GK back up) so Wanda and Ansom might leave the rebuilding to Sizemore.

Although if a city's unit types could only be changed via a Dirtmancer after a city is razed it would be a good fail safe to stop unit types becoming "extinct", considering how rare dirtmancers supposedly are.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby splintermute » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:23 am

MonteCristo wrote:Well it goes back to the original discussion about the air forces the RCC brought to take on GK...
When it comes down to it, despite how large of a force they brought with them, Stanely's dwagons was still his most powerful card. As such, the RCC should have taken more care to build up a sizebale airforce to help counter the dwagons... thus leading to asking TV to bring in more air unit since that seems to be a specialty of there's


The RCC didn't necessarily need a large airforce to counter the dwagons - they weren't anticipating having to chase them anywhere. What the RCC was anticipating was a siege, in which case all they needed to counteract the dwagons was massed archers (which they presumably had, because they were able to wound the dwagons doing the hit and run attacks on the siege equipment). Actually, it might have made more sense to not build up an airforce - why waste schmuckers on air units (air attack, high move), when you could probably spend the same amount to get a lot more archers (air attack, low move) - movement is irrelevant if all combat is expected to take place in a single hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby theseus2x » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:21 pm

Well, they SHOULD have been prepared for Stanley to run. Even before they summoned Parson, that was Stanley's plan. Take the Hammer and Dwagons and run.

Of course, only Jillian knew about Faq, but still....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:47 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Good point. Although I thought Dirtmancers could make the city better at that phase (I might be misremembering something from the summer updates when they were fixing GK back up) so Wanda and Ansom might leave the rebuilding to Sizemore.

That's correct. that's the primary reason they have sizemore rebuild the cities since it reduces costs and what not... though in addition it results in a Gk type city, so it's something they are quick to use on cities which create weaker units
Although if a city's unit types could only be changed via a Dirtmancer after a city is razed it would be a good fail safe to stop unit types becoming "extinct", considering how rare dirtmancers supposedly are.

Well, on dirtamancers, it's unknown why they are rare... But casters are not popped based upon the type of city... casters are a random pop that occurs while trying to pop warlords, and somehow the number and possibly the type of casters are supposedly determined by the side's ruler... so even if GK was wiped out completely and all their cities razed, it would not stop a dirtamancer popping up on just about any other side...

theseus2x wrote:Well, they SHOULD have been prepared for Stanley to run. Even before they summoned Parson, that was Stanley's plan. Take the Hammer and Dwagons and run.

well, unless stanely's dwagons have zero upkeep, stanley making a run for it would not be a big threat... i mean they give chase and pretty much just have to wait for the dwagons to disband due to stanely not being able to maintain upkeep costs
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby ftl » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:52 pm

theseus2x wrote:Well, they SHOULD have been prepared for Stanley to run. Even before they summoned Parson, that was Stanley's plan. Take the Hammer and Dwagons and run.

Of course, only Jillian knew about Faq, but still....


Nah. Without FAQ, there'd be no reason to chase Stanley. Capital falls, he becomes a barbarian, can no longer pay upkeep for any of his dwagons, eventually runs into someone and gets croaked, or wanders around until he can no longer even pay his own upkeep and depops. The only reason that Stanley's escape was dangerous because there was a secret hidden kingdom for him to go to that nobody knew about; and that was so improbable that Ansom didn't even believe at first, when Jillian told him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby ftl » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:04 pm

MonteCristo wrote: and somehow the number and possibly the type of casters are supposedly determined by the side's ruler...


It's not so much that they're determined by the ruler... the quote we have is something along the lines of "it is said that the titans read the ruler's heart, and give the side what it needs." (Not going back to find the exact quote, but it's something like that.)

The ruler doesn't actually get to pick them; we just know that it tends to work out for the best, and may (or may not) be influenced by any of the ruler's wants, character, needs and the demands of plot/fate, via either an unknown game mechanic or via titans paying attention and choosing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby Watsit Hoohow » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:11 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Well it goes back to the original discussion about the air forces the RCC brought to take on GK...
When it comes down to it, despite how large of a force they brought with them, Stanely's dwagons was still his most powerful card. As such, the RCC should have taken more care to build up a sizebale airforce to help counter the dwagons... thus leading to asking TV to bring in more air unit since that seems to be a specialty of there's


That's still discounting that the RCC had MORE THAN ENOUGH to take Gobwin Knob regardless of whether or not Stanley's Dwagons were there. Not to mention that they knew Stanley wasn't very clever either. The two major plans they would have thought out were: Stanley makes last-ditch attack, which fails. Or Stanley pulls in for siege, which also fails. Maybe they would have also planned for Stanley making a break for it, but since that really seemed to be more in response to Parson's failure, it's debatable whether or not he would have done that without Parson (him not having Parson is how the RCC would have planned it). Either way, they would have destroyed Stanley in a full-on battle, and that's all they expected him to do (hit-and-run with Dwagons was a Parson plan). Hence: no need to ask for more air support from Transylvito.

And that's still not counting that Transylvito didn't really start buying the royalty ideology until after the Battle for Gobwin Knob, which I suspect is why they didn't send all that much to begin with.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 16

Postby gameboy1234 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:08 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Good point. Although I thought Dirtmancers could make the city better at that phase (I might be misremembering something from the summer updates when they were fixing GK back up) so Wanda and Ansom might leave the rebuilding to Sizemore.

That's correct. that's the primary reason they have sizemore rebuild the cities since it reduces costs and what not... though in addition it results in a Gk type city, so it's something they are quick to use on cities which create weaker units


I thought, while reading that update, that razing the cities in the first place is what converts the cities to GK's city types. No matter what you do at that point, once you have completely razed a city, you can only rebuild that city as your own city type.

It was Sizemore that made razing cities practical to do on purpose. Otherwise, they'd have concentrated more on not raising cities completely if they could help it. Too many schmuckers to rebuild without Sizemore. But Sizemore didn't convert the cities, the act of razing them did. Or that's how it seemed to me.
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