Book 2 – Text Updates 010

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Ninjaguineapig » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:45 am

Finally! Jack gets some screen time! I think he's just taken Ansom's place on my favorites list. Great text update, as usual.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby joosy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:05 am

I always love the little insights into Jack's mind. Now we know that part of his 'insanity' is merely his way of keeping himself sane. He has to simultaneously view the world in cold stark reality and also how other people imagine it to be . That is part of what makes him such an excellent Foolamancer. Ergo, his sayings are not him trying to be clever, but just him trying to express how he is forced to view the world.

Regarding Jack and Wanda's conversation.. I remember having a similar discussion in an earlier post. Is love merely a stronger form of Loyalty? If so is it subject to Thinkamancy? Apparently there are loyalty spells, headache spells, but no 'love' spells in Erfworld (at least from what has been revealed so far). Some evidence linking loyalty TO love is decrypted Ansom's (and perhaps every decrypted's) inner feelings for Wanda. His internal monologue in an earlier post reveals how he feels and even compares it to his previous feelings for Jillian. The current theory is that the Arkenpliers induce such an incredibly high state of loyalty to the wielder that it is perceived as love. So then.. is love just a unique state of loyalty to someone other than your side's leadership?

It seems there are also some predetermined (or assumed) roles for love in Erf as well. Don King alludes to the fact that Jillian and Ansom love each other as proof of her royalty status. I glean that love between non-royals and royals appears to be either forbidden and /or non-existent. Apparently that indicates that Signamancy has some effect on love as well. Can a non-royal and royal really fall in love? (e.g. Wanda and Jillian or Jack's feelings for Jillian) In a world where marriage for non-royals is perhaps unheard of, and where sex appears to be primarily recreational, where does love come into play?

There are similar arguments in our own world as well. Is love just a chemical/hormonal reaction that induces temporary insanity? Is it spiritual? Is it imagined or reall? Can we control it in ourselves or others? Even the ancients struggled to categorize it (Greek Words for Love) and today people are still baffled by it.

Again, good job, Mr. Balder, in bringing to the fore the underlying issue here. The fight is not just a physical battle but an emotional one that is not just a struggle of the heart, but a struggle to understand the basic nature of love in a world such as Erf.

Note: Jack refers to Wanda as being 'put together' even worse that he did. Perhaps there are even more repurcussions from the first tri-mancer link than we originally thought. However.. he seems to be referring to a day much earlier than that. Something happened in FAQ that broke Jack and possibly Wanda as well? It will be interesting to see what is revealed... perhaps Wanda's plying with controlling Love went awry as it is nearly always does? Hmm..
Last edited by joosy on Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby PaintCaster » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:15 am

Hello everyone,

longtime reader, firsttime poster.
Rob, your writing and your imagination is a work of wonder. ERxellently done.
You could do this whole thing as a novel, even without Jamies or Xins Art it would be marvelous.
I do hope you plan to unleash your potential as novelist one day and keep us posted.

Ahhrg, this update schedule pains me, I want more! And faster. (better`s not easy to imagine)

Not at all. I doubt that there are any drugs in erfworld.....

How do you figure?
Parson, Maggy and Sizemore got heavily drunk on applejack, didnt they?
Even to the point of puking.
Is alcohol no drug in your eyes? And if there is alcohol an its debilitating properties, what makes you think there are no other drugs?
(remember the "time flaking" at the Hippimancers? which makes sizemore hungry? *lol* Or the mushrooms*g*)

Anyway
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Nimelennar » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:34 am

Zeku wrote:I feel like I'm missing what is being said.

"(Wanda)If love were like loyalty it would be subject to control. (Jack) There would be defenses."


Here's my interpretation:
(Wanda) If love were like loyalty I could cast a spell on on Jillian and force her to love me.
(Jack) If love were like loyalty I could cast a spell to make myself stop loving Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby mastigo » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:38 am

Here's an idea: Wanda wanted Stanely to invade and die so that Jillian would be heir. The thing with the arkentools was a bonus because the Will of the Titans does not need help to happen.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Llord_Droll » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:48 am

Very Impressed - again.

The romance is deep and twisted. That makes it a great hook.

Jack does not seem to me to love Wanda, in conflict with what other posters are saying about that triangle.

He doesn't seem to hate her - but only pities her because he sees her clearly. She seems to need controls and certainty - but the only certainty she can find is death.

Jacks common affliction shared with Wanda is a love for Jillian.

I fear that Wanda is intending to croak and decrypt Jillian - and finally be able to control the lover that is her most painful weakness.

I see Jack being the decisive factor in the outcome. He will blind Wanda or in some other way cripple and prevent her her from craoking Jillian, and then Jillian will capture Wanda and Jack.

Parson needs a good challenge.

Having Wanda and the Decrypted turned against Gobwin Knob is a decent challenge.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby menge101 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:55 am

PaintCaster wrote:
Not at all. I doubt that there are any drugs in erfworld.....

How do you figure?
Parson, Maggy and Sizemore got heavily drunk on applejack, didnt they?
Even to the point of puking.


Also, while it wasn't explicitly stated if they had any psychedelic affect, the mushrooms mentioned in http://www.erfworld.com/2009/11/book-2- ... dates-002/ struck me as "Magic Mushrooms".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Davre » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:59 am

Perfect.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby SteveMB » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:29 am

Nimelennar wrote:Here's my interpretation:
(Wanda) If love were like loyalty I could cast a spell on on Jillian and force her to love me.

It seems that the two already have a relationship (see Wanda's comment about being otherwise occupied tonight). This interpretation suggests that Wanda wants something more than Jillian is giving her (either in reality or in Wanda's perception).
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby lovelyluthien » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:33 am

Davre wrote:Perfect.

Quoted for truth.

What worries me is that Jack is describing the day he broke. It doesn't come up again in the text, but it's stated at the beginning. And I can't really find any hints about what made him break except Wanda's evening meeting with Jillian. This is really ominous...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BCCroaker » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:17 am

So-
Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water
Jack fell down and broke his crown
And Jill came tumbling after

Now we have to decide what the significance of the "hill" and the "pail of water" within Erfworld. And was the unmentioned "vinegar and brown paper" the remembering of the Foolamancer's name?
These a deep matters.
Like a well.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby random_guy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:27 am

lovelyluthien wrote:
Davre wrote:Perfect.

Quoted for truth.

What worries me is that Jack is describing the day he broke. It doesn't come up again in the text, but it's stated at the beginning. And I can't really find any hints about what made him break except Wanda's evening meeting with Jillian. This is really ominous...


I don't see anything about Wanda and Jillian getting together that would break Jack. Isn't Wanda well known for her interest in "torture and interrogation" (according to Stanley)? It's probably common knowledge that Wanda and Jillian like to get some action in the dungeon.

If the title of Book 2 is any indication, love is not natural thinkamancy, loyalty, or natural hippiemancy. "Love is a Battlefield."
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby name lips » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:28 am

So...

Ansom loves Jillian and maybe Wanda (though that could just be the pliers talking)
Jillian loves Ansom and Wanda and Jack (all in different ways, and maybe not Jack)
Jack loves Jillian
Wanda loves Jillian

I can't help but notice that Jillian is present in each list.


Love is a battlefield indeed....


I think we're getting foreshadowing here, in this update. If love isn't part of a mancy, if it transcends magic and even the titans, if it cannot truly be controlled...

...that makes love the only force that is potentially more powerful than the Arkentools.

I think under the right circumstances, people can use love to overcome any controlling magic, including that of the pliers.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby theseus2x » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:51 am

Wow. Just wow. This really is great.

1) We know Jack was a bit nuts prior to all this happening (and why).
2) We know that Jillian and Wanda were lovers prior to Faq's fall.
3) We know WANDA'S take on love. It frankly makes me wonder about Jillian...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby badninja » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:22 pm

Wow that was one deep update. I get a feeling that love is one of the most powerful forces in Erfwold based off what Jack stated. Jack's way of thinking is going to be the major turning point in this story. Wanda is committed to her fate and I feel that she has one complex fate ahead of her. I found it unusual that Jack was a title in FAQ and he uses it as his name.

Please put me in the camp of Jack betraying GK to RCC II. I get a feeling that he has little loyalty to GK, he may like the people there but he now sees not only a former lover but his Queen. He will betray GK because of love and GK is going to get royally screwed. He may like Lord Parson but I feel that he has no loyalty to him, just friendship.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:40 pm

Interesting update, to say the least.

On one hand, we see how Wanda thinks in terms of controlling everything. But we knew that already.

On the other, and most important, Jack finally gets some much deserved screen-time, and we get to see what he thinks and feels.

name lips wrote:Ansom loves Jillian and maybe Wanda (though that could just be the pliers talking)
Jillian loves Ansom and Wanda and Jack (all in different ways, and maybe not Jack)
Jack loves Jillian
Wanda loves Jillian

I can't help but notice that Jillian is present in each list.


I'm amazed at how such a two note individual (imnsho) can command the attention of so many. But of course, love is blind.

badninja wrote:Please put me in the camp of Jack betraying GK to RCC II. I get a feeling that he has little loyalty to GK, he may like the people there but he now sees not only a former lover but his Queen. He will betray GK because of love and GK is going to get royally screwed. He may like Lord Parson but I feel that he has no loyalty to him, just friendship.


? And why would that be. Not just to you, but anyone else with this idea. Jack already had an occasion to turn, to Jillian no less. He declined the opportunity. Why now?

Based on this update, there's only one thing that I can conceive that would make Jack betray GK/Wanda and aid Jillian. If Wanda somehow gets Jillian at her mercy, and is poised to croak/decrypt her, THEN I see Jack rushing in between to prevent Naughtymancy tarnishing the ineffable thing that Love should be.

And that ain't happenin'. We all know that Wanda will lose this battle.

PS: so, Jack, at present, refers to Wanda as being in front of him. Hmm. So much for my veil hunch. Too bad.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Wren » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:17 pm

Fantabulastic wrote:
I feel like I'm missing what is being said.

"(Wanda)If love were like loyalty it would be subject to control. (Jack) There would be defenses."


Wanda is saying that love is not like loyalty and using the fact that one/she cannot control it as she has learned to do loyalty to prove her point.

Jack is saying that just because she cannot control it doesn't mean it isn't like loyalty, it might be that it can be controlled but only if you get past the defenses ie his own private love for Jillian is the way he keeps himself from getting hurt. Wanda can't use it against him because she does not know it exists. His defense in regards to love, like his magic, draws its power from deceit.


I disagree about the last bit.

I think Jack is saying that if love is like magic, there would be magical defenses against it. He says this referring to his own crushing love, it's ability to control him, his inability to defend against it. This is supported by his later statement that the Titans themselves are helpless before it.

Also, awesome post, Rob. I'm stunned.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Undead Prince » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:46 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
badninja wrote:Please put me in the camp of Jack betraying GK to RCC II. I get a feeling that he has little loyalty to GK, he may like the people there but he now sees not only a former lover but his Queen. He will betray GK because of love and GK is going to get royally screwed. He may like Lord Parson but I feel that he has no loyalty to him, just friendship.


? And why would that be. Not just to you, but anyone else with this idea. Jack already had an occasion to turn, to Jillian no less. He declined the opportunity. Why now?

Based on this update, there's only one thing that I can conceive that would make Jack betray GK/Wanda and aid Jillian. If Wanda somehow gets Jillian at her mercy, and is poised to croak/decrypt her, THEN I see Jack rushing in between to prevent Naughtymancy tarnishing the ineffable thing that Love should be.

And that ain't happenin'. We all know that Wanda will lose this battle.



Maybe she will lose because Jack turns.

That would serve a whole plethora of purposes - GK getting their nose bloodied so that Parson can step in, Wanda getting betrayed by the person she loves and hopes to control as well as a person she thought to have control over (sending her over the edge), and of course, a military/political twist regarding the factions Involved in the war.

P.S. Could it be possible that the three surviving FAQ units were unleashed upon the world with a common purpose? Speculatively, all three do not have Loyalty – the most basic Erfworlder trait. Evidently, all three are deeply mired in Love – an unknown, immeasurable force by the reckoning of Erf magi. And, finally, they are caught in the nets of Fate – some knowingly, others, perhaps, unknowingly, but all equally helpless before its power.

We know that the FAQ “Philosopher king” was not interested in conquest – Erf's ostensible raison d’etre. In this update, we are shown he was struggling for something else, assembling casters to do… what? Could it be that the “Philosopher king” and his circle have managed to launch something designed to eventually change the face of Erfworld? With the three surviving FAQers being the tools of this… project?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby yay » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:36 pm

SteveMB wrote:
Nimelennar wrote:Here's my interpretation:
(Wanda) If love were like loyalty I could cast a spell on on Jillian and force her to love me.

It seems that the two already have a relationship (see Wanda's comment about being otherwise occupied tonight). This interpretation suggests that Wanda wants something more than Jillian is giving her (either in reality or in Wanda's perception).


wanda probably is questioning her own love/loyalty to jillian, and wants to know if she can control jillian through the mutual affection. wanda is above all a control freak. she is used to her undead constructs obeying her unconditionally, she makes sure her official equal (jack) knows she is superior, and later can't even consider the possibility of jillian breaking free of the control spell. ergo, she can't accept the comprimise inherent in a relationship, and wants to dominate jillian through some type of mancy
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:43 pm

Undead Prince wrote:Maybe she will lose because Jack turns.


Wanda won't be winning this one for GK, that's for sure.

BUT, I don't believe that in this battle it will ever be the case that Jillian's life will need saving. Maybe Wanda has something up her sleeve that we are not seeing (I had an idea, which is not likely anymore), but she appears not to. Jillian and her allies still have some mystery to them. So if surprises come, they'll more likely be from Jillian.

And since Jillian probably won't be in mortal/decryption danger, I don't think Jack will have cause to turn.

Nor will he heave cause to turn if Wanda herself turns to Jillian's side, I think. Again, he had a chance to turn to Jillian, and he did not then.

Undead Prince wrote:We know that the FAQ “Philosopher king” was not interested in conquest – Erf's ostensible raison d’etre. In this update, we are shown he was struggling for something else, assembling casters to do… what? Could it be that the “Philosopher king” and his circle have managed to launch something designed to eventually change the face of Erfworld? With the three surviving FAQers being the tools of this… project?


Nah, he was gathering casters for the same reason Charlie gathers archons.
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