Book 2 – Text Updates 010

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby DoctorJest » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:55 pm

Llord_Droll wrote:Having Wanda and the Decrypted turned against Gobwin Knob is a decent challenge.


It's been foreshadowed since the Summer Updates. Stanley's been worried about Wanda, Parson's been worried about Wanda. Wanda and Jillian have a thing. Jillian wants to Croak Stanley. Wanda is under no Loyalty Spells to Stanley. Wanda wants Jillian.

The whole situation is a powder keg.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:08 pm

I'd venture, it's been foreshadowed since Wanda first decrypted the former RCC1, back at the end of Book 1. In fact, I seriously expected her to split off then and there, she had 3000+ troops, a good Warlord (Ansom), Stanley barely had six or seven Dwagons left ... the timing seemed perfect.

Maybe some "Casters can't start new sides" mechanic popped in or something, because otherwise Wanda could very well have just left GK and Stanley, if not kill him outright to get at the schmuckers in the mountain, then hire some MK Findamancer for a spell to locate Jillian. Then, she could have found Jillian and delivered to her a present. And all would have worked out fine.

At the end of Book 1.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby theseus2x » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:10 pm

badninja wrote:Wow that was one deep update. I get a feeling that love is one of the most powerful forces in Erfwold based off what Jack stated. Jack's way of thinking is going to be the major turning point in this story. Wanda is committed to her fate and I feel that she has one complex fate ahead of her. I found it unusual that Jack was a title in FAQ and he uses it as his name.

Please put me in the camp of Jack betraying GK to RCC II. I get a feeling that he has little loyalty to GK, he may like the people there but he now sees not only a former lover but his Queen. He will betray GK because of love and GK is going to get royally screwed. He may like Lord Parson but I feel that he has no loyalty to him, just friendship.


Well, we already knew that, sorta. Jillian is in love with Ansom, Wanda and Vinny (girl gets around), Ansom is in love with Jillian still (or so I believe), Wanda may or may not really be in love with Jillian (the convo with Parson was VERY telling). Jack may be in love with Jillian. Caesar and Bunny are in love... meh.

All of these relationships may cause people to act differently than they otherwise would rationally.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Forge » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:25 pm

PLOT!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby badninja » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:41 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote: And why would that be. Not just to you, but anyone else with this idea. Jack already had an occasion to turn, to Jillian no less. He declined the opportunity. Why now?

Based on this update, there's only one thing that I can conceive that would make Jack betray GK/Wanda and aid Jillian. If Wanda somehow gets Jillian at her mercy, and is poised to croak/decrypt her, THEN I see Jack rushing in between to prevent Naughtymancy tarnishing the ineffable thing that Love should be.



I see it as this Jack was still coming to after getting his mind back and blindly attacked the thing that was threatening his leader, Stanley. I feel that Love is as Jack put it a power that can out do the Titans (if I understood him correctly). Love is something that makes people do stupid things, like betray a side IMHO, just like tieing oneself to fate. I feel that the title of Book 2 says it all "Love is a Battlefield". I see Jack switching sides and GK knowing when to walk away and when to run.

I feel that Jacks emotions will play a major part in the end of this story and I guess we will all see how it ends.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:55 pm

Blindly attacked the one who called his mind back together, you mean.

You could be right in all particulars, of course. But I for one think Jack's loyalty/attachment to GK and the other people there is under-rated. Just as Jillian probably won't give in to that voice telling her to surrender to Wanda, so Jack will refuse turning to Jillian.

Unless some really freaky stuff will go on.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby ShinyBrownCoat » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:58 pm

Best. Text. Update. Ever.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:35 pm

Ooh, now that is a tease!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Atomic » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:48 pm

First off, loved the text update. Definitely one of my favorites... This anticipation is killing me, though. I cant wait for the next update!

Not trying to preach doom'n'gloom, but am I the only one who thinks that the following paragraph is the most important part of the text update?
Foolamancy is Eyemancy. By habit and trade, a Foolamancer must look. At all times, the Foolamancer must observe the nouns around him in finest detail and broadest stroke, in a way that other minds do not. Other minds take shortcuts. Other minds construct, telling themselves stories about what they see, rather than seeing. Foolamancy is therefore only a narrative. To tell a mind it sees something, the Foolamancer must both see the world as it is, and also as it is seen.

Jack is doing the exact opposite of what he should be doing. He isn't looking, or observing. He isn't seeing the world as it is, or as it should be seen. He's day dreaming.

I love Jack as a character, but my bets have shifted from Wanda being the reason things get booped up, to Jack being the reason things are booped up. He's not going to spot Charlie's Archons. Maybe it's because no one took the time to tell him there should only be six Megalogwiffs, or maybe it's because he's having a flashback, but I'm betting good money that Jillian is on a mob of Archons and Jack isn't going to spot it.

For all I know, this flashback could be happening in a split second, and might not have any effect on the ensuing battle; but I'm a fan of outlandish theories, so let me try to provide some reasoning for my idea:

There are three -known- ways to expose a veil, as per Book-Two Text Update 006:
A.) A Foolamancer - Jack is too distracted with his internal monologue and wont notice the difference in Megalogwiff-numbers, or whatever the Archons are being veiled as.
B.) An Archon - As far as I can tell, there aren't any Archons in the front stack. This might not matter, but it'd stand to reason that the closer you are, the easier it is to break a veil... But what do I know, I'm no Foolamancer/Lookamancer.
C.) A lucky/smart Warlord - I'm not sure Gobwin Knob has any of these at the battle. Parson and, yes, Ansom, seem to be the best warlords they've got, yet neither of them are present. Some might argue that Ossomer is a smart warlord, but he's the one looking at Wanda in every panel... Not the wisest choice, when you've just confirmed that there are only supposed to be six Megalogwiffs present.

What'll happen?

I think Wanda will fly up and have a parlay with Jillian, but neither one will want to switch sides; they'll be expecting each other to make that sacrifice.

The ultimate trick with be Jillian riding a mob of Archons; They'll bust out and attack Wanda once she's alone... Wanda might take down one or two, but she'll will have a dramatic death and the Archons take the pliers. Then, all heck breaks loose: Dwagons overwhelm the FAQ-Airforce and sack the tower, managing to recapture the pliers, but at heavy losses. They retreat with Tramennis and Hagar-person hot on their tails... Then (now this is REALLY going out on a limb) Ansom commits suicide at the loss of Wanda.

Parson is forced to reconcile the GK-Forces and fight off Tramennis/Hagar somewhere near the Unaroyal boundary-line. That'll be Book 2.

Dems my predictions, and I'm stickin' with 'em!* :)

*predictions are subject to change, with or without notice, and I'm not liable for any uninformed assumptions or the flame wars ensuing there-in.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:56 pm

Atomic wrote:Jack is doing the exact opposite of what he should be doing. He isn't looking, or observing. He isn't seeing the world as it is, or as it should be seen. He's day dreaming.


I like how you think, but let's say Jack had a quick reminiscing session back when the dwagons were taking off. Presumably he has his wits about him when a tense moment, such as a parley before attempting to dust a city, approaches.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby CelebrenIthil » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:30 pm

Undead Prince wrote:
Sinrus wrote:
Undead Prince wrote:So now we know the origin of Wanda's Decrypted crest. Badly broken and badly reassembled, huh... Interesting how she views herself as a corpse now. A reference to her powers, the state of her mind, her role in Erfworld, and the despair for the past, all rolled into one neat little symbol.


I don't think she views herself as a corpse. I think Jack is referencing the time she became unresponsive when Jillian broke her spell.


"Wanda's Decrypted crest" = skullflower. In this origin picture, Wanda is depicted as wearing a similar flower to the one pictured on her crest, and in a similar fashion. The only difference being, instead of Wanda's head, there's a skull. Ergo, Wanda is viewed as a corpse - either by herself, if she chose the crest, or by whatever forces at work which determine faction regalia. In both cases, the symbolism is hard to miss, and refers, IMHO, to both Wanda's inner self, and to her role in the world. The flower is a sign of her desperate attachment to the past (i.e. Gillian, but maybe more than that), while the skull is her harsh reality as being broken and reassembled by the powers of Fate, just like she does with her Decrypted.
<snip for lenght>


Wow, some people like to dig deep in symbolism and extrapolate.
I'd like to hear how you'll explain the Jetstone being, deep down, a bunch of radishes. ;)

Seriously, I by no mean wish to be demeaning. But...how Freud said it? "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"?
She is a croackamancer...she works with undea...I mean, uncroacked. A skull is a pretty logical thing for her to have as a crest. But she is also kinda feminine and definitely likes dressing in various nice outfits ('cept the last one...) and adding a flower to it fits the character.

You are free to see has much meaning as you want into things, but I feel sometimes people on the Erfworld forums are getting a bit too enthralled into digging for meaning behind everything. Like, for instance, Xin drawing a comic with the Jetstone army and deciding to keep the less important part of the crowd in a single color to save time and then having people on the forum extrapolating it might have been caused by some kind of unknown petrifying spell casted by a person unknown on them - when it's just artistic license/ human limitation to picturing the comic. :)

Erfword is being written (and drawn) with a lot of thought behind it and it sure HAS a bunch of symbolism hidden inside but let's remember it's being made by mere humans that cannot possibly mean every single thing they do to have five layers of inner symbolism or obliquely foreshadow the future events...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:45 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:Erfword is being written (and drawn) with a lot of thought behind it and it sure HAS a bunch of symbolism hidden inside but let's remember it's being made by mere humans


BLASPHEMY!

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby splintermute » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:59 pm

Speculating on why Jack didn't turn at the battle of the mountain pass, but might turn here - maybe he couldn't have turned to Jillian during the previous battle. She was still a barbarian at the time, and all she suggested was that he "turn", not turn to her, or turn to Faq. Maybe units can't turn to barbarians, and if Jack had turned at that point he would have become a TV unit, which was no better or worse than being a GK unit.

Also, as to why Wanda didn't turn immediately after tBfGK - who would she have turned to? If she had rebelled and croaked Stanley, she (and the rest of the city) would have just been frozen in time. This is actually the first time since acquiring the pliers that she's encountered a sympathetic ruler she might consider turning to.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby DoctorJest » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:19 pm

Atomic wrote:I'm betting good money that Jillian is on a mob of Archons and Jack isn't going to spot it.


How much money? I'll take that bet.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Jeivar » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:30 pm

Oh boy. Every time I think I have the details of an update figured out, I peek in on the forum and details I missed and theories I didn't think of and setups I forgot burst into my face like a claymore mine.

Anyway, I'm too sleepy to try and figure out the exact deal with Jack 'n Wanda's love conversation, but now I at long last at least know for sure that Wanda was interested in Jillian BEFORE the post-Faq "catch and release" thing during the war.

Also, It's really, really weird to see Wanda dressed casually and with a flower in her hair. It's like seeing Darth Vader ride a waterslide. :shock:

And Jack says Wanda is more broken than he is. Does he mean that the quest for the Arkentool and "Fate" and everything surrounding it have changed her for the worse, or that the suggestion-spell screw up left her permanently messed up, or that something else happened that we're not yet privy to? Or is he just referring to her twisted and broken nature?

Oy, the possibilities! The endless possible interpretations!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby fractal » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:32 pm

DoctorJest wrote:
Atomic wrote:I'm betting good money that Jillian is on a mob of Archons and Jack isn't going to spot it.

How much money? I'll take that bet.

Seconded. Archons are going to out-foolamancy Jack at point blank range, with as bizarre a change as that? No way.

Now, if it turned out that a bunch of the rider-less gwiffons in the background were actually Archons in disguise, that wouldn't particularly strain disbelief.

Incidentally, I'm of the view that the "extra" (either two or four) megalogwiffs were an artist or story mistake. Of course, that doesn't mean that the future story won't adapt to include it, but I doubt it will be central to the plotline.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:42 pm

Nimelennar wrote:
Zeku wrote:I feel like I'm missing what is being said.

"(Wanda)If love were like loyalty it would be subject to control. (Jack) There would be defenses."


Here's my interpretation:
(Wanda) If love were like loyalty I could cast a spell on on Jillian and force her to love me.
(Jack) If love were like loyalty I could cast a spell to make myself stop loving Jillian.


Like a comedy opera duet.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Atomic » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:43 pm

DoctorJest wrote:How much money? I'll take that bet.

I'll bet you one new postage stamp.

Of course, by forcing me to mail you said-postage stamp, you'd owe ME a new postage stamp, as well as an envelope. I could easily mail you two postage stamps, which you could follow up by sending a package containing one postage stamp, an envelope, and the obligatory postage stamp attached to said-envelope; but by the time we reach that level of commitment, it's already too rich for my blood...

Better yet, I bet you 1 Internets. Dun dun duuuuuuun.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:46 pm

splintermute wrote:Speculating on why Jack didn't turn at the battle of the mountain pass {...} Maybe units can't turn to barbarians


Well, Jillian's "Jack, don't you dare!" suggests she thought there was a good chance of him turning whatever the technicalities of who he would be turning to. No, Jack turning now is far from a foregone conclusion.

splintermute wrote:Also, as to why Wanda didn't turn immediately after tBfGK - who would she have turned to?


This is why I said that, IF the option of splitting into her own side was available at that time, it would have made sense to split THEN. She wouldn't have "turned" to anyone, but formed her own side. It wouldn't have been too out of the blue, after all she had just attuned to an ArkenTool and what those things can do to a unit's ability to Lead a side of their own is mysterious. See Charlie, whose status is unclear on this point. {{EDIT: meaning, we don't know what Charlie IS as a unit, let alone how he/she/it/they came to power.}}

Jeivar wrote:And Jack says Wanda is more broken than he is. Does he mean that the quest for the Arkentool and "Fate" and everything surrounding it have changed her for the worse, or that the suggestion-spell screw up left her permanently messed up, or that something else happened that we're not yet privy to? Or is he just referring to her twisted and broken nature?


Freudian excuses are looming ahead!

Also, we must remember that Anakin too was once a baby. True, he may have been more annoying then, than he was in the Darth Vader phase.

Which leaves open the question of who is Wanda's son/daughter and when will she destroy Charlie and restore balance to the Force I mean Arkentools.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 010

Postby Undead Prince » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:52 pm

CelebrenIthil wrote:
Wow, some people like to dig deep in symbolism and extrapolate. Seriously, I by no mean wish to be demeaning. But...how Freud said it? "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"?


Don't feel threatened by a little symbolism. The symbol is just a vehicle for ideas. Regardless of whether it was intentional on the author's part (and I am certain it was), the coincidence - or as Jung would say, synchronicity - of Wanda's FAQ outfit with her crest can be viewed to reflect the dichotomy of Wanda's nature and her standing in Erfworld. It is a legitimate basis for speculation, and the symbol is a useful tool to convey the meaning in a compact, graphic form.

She is a croackamancer...she works with undea...I mean, uncroacked. A skull is a pretty logical thing for her to have as a crest. But she is also kinda feminine and definitely likes dressing in various nice outfits ('cept the last one...) and adding a flower to it fits the character.


Alas, it is not that simple. Taken separately, a skull is indeed an abstract symbol of death, or undeath, fit for a necromancer. A flower is just an ornament, a fashion accessory, fit for a lady. However, Wanda is the one who wears this particular flower in this specific fashion. Therefore, the one who wears this flower is Wanda. And on her crest, a corpse is wearing this flower. Ergo, Wanda - or, perhaps the flower-wearing Wanda, the FAQ Wanda - is being viewed as a corpse. This meshes well with several things: Jack's reminiscence about Wanda having been badly broken and badly rebuilt; Wanda's powers of Uncroaking and Decrypting, i.e. "badly" rebuilding broken things; and Wanda's despair for her past and her future - "Fate does not care", trampling everything underfoot.

What I'm curious about is whether Wanda had chosen this crest herself - which would show almost Hamletian depths of self-reflection 8=) , or it had been selected for her by the powers-that-be, the cogs behind Erfworld's machinery, Fate or the Titan’s Will, whatever the alias. And if the latter, whether Wanda understands the significance.

let's remember it's being made by mere humans that cannot possibly mean every single thing they do to have five layers of inner symbolism or obliquely foreshadow the future events...


How often have I heard that one. Usually as an excuse to not use the brain for speculative thought. But, rest assured, what we have here is a very mild case. Cute and tame compared to some of the stuff out there. Lynch’s “Lost Highway”, for instance, or “Foucault's Pendulum” by Eco, or Aronofsky’s Pi. Or even the Bible – now there’s a book you can’t read straight, whatever your outlook on its message. And yet there were always some who condemned analysis in favour of literal perception - even when literal perception made no sense, the author was obviously using symbolism to convey his ideas, and the analysts offered reasonable interpretations which resolved the baffling questions.

Toying with interpretative perception, for the intellectual mind, is like reading a detective story, a mystery to be solved with the clues and hints dropped by the author. The difference is that interpretation is not the goal, it’s an instrument used to improve understanding, and as such remains a valid tool regardless of the author’s intentions. With it, every book becomes a detective story, every movie – a mystery, every poem – a chiffre. Every dream – a potential solution to a psychological problem, if you wish to continue the psychoanalysis allusion. Denying the possibility of interpretation is about as productive as claiming that there is no killer in an Agatha Christie murder novel. The same parallel can be drawn with reference humour, which seems to be so popular in this comic and today’s American culture in general. Like for you Wanda’s outfit is an obvious reference to TRHPS, for me the illustration to this update is an obvious reference to Wanda’s crest.

Of course, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and a coincidence is just a coincidence, but you can't be sure without some thinking, which is what I’m doing here, and there’s no reason to get your panties in a knot about it.
Last edited by Undead Prince on Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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