Sinrus wrote:Oberon, I agree with everything you say but one thing. The only weak point I can find in your logic is that the bracer is undoubtedly an artifact. There is canon evidence from Sizemore that magic items are made by mortals, and heavy implications that artifacts are not. However, the basis of your argument is that Sizemore also said that the bracer may be an artifact.
Yes, we have what appears to be contradictory statements from the same person. If all artifacts are Titan made, then the implication of Sizemore saying that the bracer may be an artifact, is that the summoning scroll either created or transported an artifact to Parson. And also the context of Sizemore's analysis, which was potency and not origin: "This is a very powerful item, or maybe artifact."
We also have the history of Erf as hints: The Titans are absent. They are revered in much the same way as the Christian God is revered: As the creator(s), but creators who are not taking any apparent interest in their creation. Every reference to them reinforces this. The only interaction any Erf resident hopes for is after death, when if they were militant enough during life they enter the City of Heroes. Thus, any speculation that the Titans created the bracer is countered by the weight of evidence that the Titans do not take part in the operation of Erfworld. And if the summoning scroll created an artifact, and all artifacts are of Titanic origin, then the summoning scroll must be an artifact. And we know that the summoning scroll was created by caster units, and so there is a conflict here.
As an upfront disclaimer, I haven't read the whole thread. But this line is the core of you argument: your personal definition of artifact. It is wrong, Sizemore
explicitly states that magic items are made by mortals and artifacts by Titans. That's it. Done.
Not done. We have a contradictory statement by Sizemore also, see above.
Nebulious wrote:This brings us to the tricky question: is the bracer an artifact? Sizemore speculates that it's powerful enough to be Titanic. The spell could have summoned it to Parson via Findmancy, allowing it to be either mortal or Titan made, but still acquired by mortal means. (The inset for Parson's watch doesn't concern me, since even Stanley can do resizing of magic items.) So what we do know is that the bracer could be an artifact, but it has nothing to do with economics.
Be careful! Sizemore most definitely did NOT speculate that the bracer is powerful enough to be Titanic. This kind of retconning to support your position is dishonest in the extreme. Sizemore said that it was "a powerful item, maybe artifact." That's all. No reference to the Titans at all.
Sinrus wrote:Now before I continue, let me remind you that I agree wholeheartedly that if a scroll can bring you an artifact that it is as valuable as an artifact. Of course, that doesn't mean that it is an artifact. To use a previous analogy, the cup of coffee I bought with a dollar bill is in and of itself not a dollar bill. It is, of course, the same value as a dollar bill.
It does not have to mean that the summoning scroll is an artifact, I agree. But there is sufficient doubt, based upon Sizemore himself who is to date the sole source for this information. And see my above "absent Titans" thesis for further support of the doubt.
theseus2x wrote:Look, 'artifact' is a term. It has an actual meaning and definition based on what Sizemore said. No need to make more of it than it is.
And yet again, Sizemore himself calls into doubt his earlier statement. The definition you want to give absolute credence is not as absolute as you might hope.
theseus2x wrote:Agreed. We have no reason to think another scroll would result in an item being procured that could turn around and be sold for more than we paid for the scroll. For that matter, we don't know if the Bracer can work without Parson. For that matter, we don't know if there are more scrolls.
If we are to speculate, we must consider the story to hold the most valid information, yes? More valid than idle speculation, at the very least.
Within the story we have seen the following facts:
1) Items can be created by casters working together - The Eyebooks, the summoning scroll, and the laurel are all in-story examples of this.
2) Items can be created more than once, they are not unique - The Eyebooks and Hats are examples of this.
3) The summoning scroll was created by Findamancers and Predictamancers.
Taking these facts and applying them to our speculation, we quickly see that it is foolish to decide that there is "no reason" to believe that there could be additional summoning scrolls. It may be convenient for one's own pet theories, but it is not consistent to the story. Where was the page describing the sudden deaths of the Findamancers and Predictamancers? I must have missed that one. If they still exist, then they can make additional summoning scrolls. This is the ONLY conclusion supported within the story.
theseus2x wrote:Prior to the Battle in Book 1, if Stanley had one inkling that he could have sold Parson's bracer for 150k, he probably would have done it.
Again, look to the story before you speculate. We have the following facts:
1) Stanley wants more Arkentools - He went to war for this very reason.
3) Stanley supports his people's hobbies and interests.
4) Wanda is a unit under Stanley - He would instantly know if she was not, and any GK units not led by a Warlord in her presence would instantly attack her.
5) Wanda now has an Arkentool, the very one Stanley had insisted that Ansom was bringing to HIM.
6) Stanley has not ordered Wanda to give him the Arkenpliers. He is rather sulky about her ownership and attunement, but he hasn't even hinted that he might demand them from her.
7) Despite the update describing how a subordinate unit can be ordered to "pleasure" a superior unit, we have never seen Stanley order Wanda to do this. Or any other unit, for that matter.
8) We know that Stanley enjoys sex with Wanda, or at the very least does not turn it down when it is offered.
So again, within the story, there is NOTHING that suggests that Stanley would have ordered Parson to hand over the bracer, despite its great value.
So again, there is nothing, zilch, zip, zero, to support the speculation that "if Stanley had one inkling that he could have sold Parson's bracer for 150k, he probably would have done it." And a great deal of in-story facts to dispute that assertion.