Book 2 – Text Updates 011

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Sinrus » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:25 pm

Oberon wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Artifacts are made by the titans. The Napster Laurel is a magic item.


This is not canon. Sizemore speculated that Parson's bracer might be an artifact, and it was created by the summoning spell which was in turn crafted by caster units.

Sizemore was aware of the source of the summoning spell, the types of magic which were involved, and its cost in shmuckers. Wanda said "the Findamancers and Predictamancers have forged a spell together", which excludes even a trimancer link. If artifacts were solely created by the Titans, Sizemore would not have thought that an artifact could be the byproduct of a spell crafted by caster units.


Actually, it was not created by the summoning spell. It was the toy in a Stupid Meal.

In this page Sizemore clearly states that Magic Items are made by mortals, heavily insinuating that artifacts are not.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby theseus2x » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:26 pm

Oberon wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Artifacts are made by the titans. The Napster Laurel is a magic item.
This is not canon. Sizemore speculated that Parson's bracer might be an artifact, and it was created by the summoning spell which was in turn crafted by caster units.

Sizemore was aware of the source of the summoning spell, the types of magic which were involved, and its cost in shmuckers. Wanda said "the Findamancers and Predictamancers have forged a spell together", which excludes even a trimancer link. If artifacts were solely created by the Titans, Sizemore would not have thought that an artifact could be the byproduct of a spell crafted by caster units.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0035.html

Magic Items = Created by mortals
Artifacts = Implied created by Titans?

Maybe Baldur mucked up.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby shadowdemon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:27 pm

Is no one else interested in the fact that Wanda is more then a match for Jillian? Jillian is a level 9 (possibly ten now) royal queen. Levels wise she is second only to Ansom, who was purported to be one of the best chief warlords in the world. But the idea of her fighting Wanda is a bad joke, is Wanda really that powerful?

And as to Dwagons vs. Megalogwiffs. It wouldn't surprise me if Dwagons were a bit weaker in physical combat then a Megalogwiff, but that Dwagons make up for it by having cool special abilities (being seige units, shockamancy, immobilizing units in gum etc.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby theseus2x » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:28 pm

Sinrus wrote:
Oberon wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Artifacts are made by the titans. The Napster Laurel is a magic item.


This is not canon. Sizemore speculated that Parson's bracer might be an artifact, and it was created by the summoning spell which was in turn crafted by caster units.

Sizemore was aware of the source of the summoning spell, the types of magic which were involved, and its cost in shmuckers. Wanda said "the Findamancers and Predictamancers have forged a spell together", which excludes even a trimancer link. If artifacts were solely created by the Titans, Sizemore would not have thought that an artifact could be the byproduct of a spell crafted by caster units.


Actually, it was not created by the summoning spell. It was the toy in a Stupid Meal.

In this page Sizemore clearly states that Magic Items are made by mortals, heavily insinuating that artifacts are not.


Boop you! You beat me to it! :ugeek:

I will say, however, that its implied that the "Stupid Meal" as well as all those other 'pops' were the summoning spell correcting itself, and making Parson the "Perfect Warlord".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0118.html
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby theseus2x » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:31 pm

shadowdemon wrote:Is no one else interested in the fact that Wanda is more then a match for Jillian? Jillian is a level 9 (possibly ten now) royal queen. Levels wise she is second only to Ansom, who was purported to be one of the best chief warlords in the world. But the idea of her fighting Wanda is a bad joke, is Wanda really that powerful?


No, no, no, no, no.... Its not a joke because of the sheer tactical comparison, although I'm certain Wanda is getting HUGE bonuses from the pliers. Its a joke because of the relationship between the two units in question.

shadowdemon wrote:And as to Dwagons vs. Megalogwiffs. It wouldn't surprise me if Dwagons were a bit weaker in physical combat then a Megalogwiff, but that Dwagons make up for it by having cool special abilities (being seige units, shockamancy, immobilizing units in gum etc.


HUGE topic on this. Please join us :

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=885
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Yucca » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:34 pm

Oberon wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Artifacts are made by the titans. The Napster Laurel is a magic item.
This is not canon. Sizemore speculated that Parson's bracer might be an artifact, and it was created by the summoning spell which was in turn crafted by caster units.

Sizemore was aware of the source of the summoning spell, the types of magic which were involved, and its cost in shmuckers. Wanda said "the Findamancers and Predictamancers have forged a spell together", which excludes even a trimancer link. If artifacts were solely created by the Titans, Sizemore would not have thought that an artifact could be the byproduct of a spell crafted by caster units.


No, Sizemore clearly says that things made by mortals are magic items, not artifacts.

Parson's mathamancy bracer is ambiguous because he didn't know where it is coming from. Since assumingly most people don't get anything other than rations in their daily rations, and it's doubtful that the summoning spell stipulated "and useful equipment will pop with food everyday"

EDIT: double ninja'd
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:44 pm

Oberon wrote:
Sinrus wrote:Artifacts are made by the titans. The Napster Laurel is a magic item.
This is not canon. Sizemore speculated that Parson's bracer might be an artifact, and it was created by the summoning spell which was in turn crafted by caster units.

Sizemore was aware of the source of the summoning spell, the types of magic which were involved, and its cost in shmuckers. Wanda said "the Findamancers and Predictamancers have forged a spell together", which excludes even a trimancer link. If artifacts were solely created by the Titans, Sizemore would not have thought that an artifact could be the byproduct of a spell crafted by caster units.


piggy backing on to what others were saying; Sizemore was speculating on the source of the bracer, he could not be sure that it was a result of the summoning spell (magic item) or if the item in question was a gift from the titans (artifact)... hell it could that the the bracer was created by the titans, and all the summoning spell did was teleport it to him; which would still make it an artifact
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:00 pm

Sinrus wrote:Actually, it was not created by the summoning spell. It was the toy in a Stupid Meal.
The items contained in the stupid meals were a specific side effect of the summoning spell. It says so right on the label.

Sinrus wrote:In this page Sizemore clearly states that Magic Items are made by mortals, heavily insinuating that artifacts are not.
Then what we have are contradictory statements by Sizemore. Knowing the origin of the bracer (we must assume that this discussion occurred off-panel, it would be ridiculous to assume that Parson refused to say where the bracer came from, or that Sizemore would not have asked), Sizemore can not be logically consistent with both statements:
"Items created by mortals are 'magic items'";
"This is a very powerful item, or maybe artifact."
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Zanatos42 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:09 pm

Davre wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:So then, Duncan Scone thinks some Lvl 2 warlord on a Meg is an even match for Sylvia and her red Dwagon? More ill-boding.


Well, the same source thinks that, on the whole, his side is completely out-gunned so I don't see that it bodes so ill.


I think that is their chances while Wanda is not stacked with them. They probably don't get her full bonus unless she is in the stack with them.

Also first post, hello everyone.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:12 pm

theseus2x wrote:Maybe Baldur mucked up.
Well, yeah. That is the only real conclusion one can draw from the chain of logic.

1) Buy a summoning spell for 350,000 shmuckers;
2) Get a damn good Warlord;
3) Get a pair of glasses useless to anyone but your new Warlord (duplicates an ability everyone else has);
4) Get a bracer worth 500,000+ shmuckers;
5) Get a magic item sword;
6) Sell bracer, now you have a 500,000+ shmuckers and a useful Warlord with a magic sword;
7) Go to step 1 and ***PROFIT***
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:15 pm

Oberon wrote:
Sinrus wrote:In this page Sizemore clearly states that Magic Items are made by mortals, heavily insinuating that artifacts are not.
Then what we have are contradictory statements by Sizemore. Knowing the origin of the bracer (we must assume that this discussion occurred off-panel, it would be ridiculous to assume that Parson refused to say where the bracer came from, or that Sizemore would not have asked), Sizemore can not be logically consistent with both statements:
"Items created by mortals are 'magic items'";
"This is a very powerful item, or maybe artifact."

No it is not a contradiction...
tell me, where does sizemore acknowledge that the "bracer is a byproduct of the summoning spell"
He knows that Parson was summoned via magic created by mortals but how does he know that the bracer is a byproduct of that spell?
Did the spell create the items itself, or is it just teleporting the items? The items, the bracer in particular, could have been created by the titans themselves and all the spell did was "predict" what parson would need, "found" them and then sent it to him... maybe somewhere in erfworld there is a king wondering where his bracer went
hell parson himself feels as though the sword was erfworld's attempt to manipulate him...

and that's what sizemore was saying, he was not just speculating on what the bracer was, but also where it came from
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby joosy » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:16 pm

Cool. Some more revalations about casters as well as some insight into the upcoming Jillian/Wanda catfight from a 3rd party perspective. To me the 'titans are laughing' either means the outcome is a sure thing or outright unknowable.

I also enjoyed the allusion to the magic item created by a tri-mancer linkup. I think we had a thread somewhere discussing the best kind of linkups. I had suggested using them to make magic items like linking up a dollamancer and a healomancer (The thinkamancer is the assumed third, of course) to make outfits that gave health bonuses or a stuffamancer with a dittomancer to make your own version of Kinko's, or a dollamancer with a dirtamancer to make some kickass golems? A stuffamancer with a lookamancer to make items that let you see several hexes away (e.g. a tewescope), etc. etc. You could make a 'hat' that gave you a bonus in prediction, or to boost thinkamancy skills. Apparently this is not done that often as the damage to the rare casters is too much when the link needs to be unbroken.

And Napster? heh. I wonder if we will hear about a kingdom called Enron whose Tri-mancer link with their Moneymancer and Mathamancer went horribly wrong ;)

And what is all this speculation about Charlie's forces being in the battlespace as if it was fact? Its pure speculatioh as far as I can tell. Speaking of speculation, I wonder if this is all just a feint by Charlie to get as much of Stanley's forces out of Gobwin Knob so he can try and croak Stanley via a tunnel attack by turned Gobwins. Of course its still GK's turn so Charlie would either already have to have them in GK's tunnel battlespace if he was going to use that now. He would have to wait until GK's turn ended (which could mean the destruction of Jetstone) before he made his move. I'm sure Rob has something much more clever and confounding up his sleeve :)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Sinrus » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:22 pm

Oberon wrote:
Sinrus wrote:In this page Sizemore clearly states that Magic Items are made by mortals, heavily insinuating that artifacts are not.
Then what we have are contradictory statements by Sizemore. Knowing the origin of the bracer (we must assume that this discussion occurred off-panel, it would be ridiculous to assume that Parson refused to say where the bracer came from, or that Sizemore would not have asked), Sizemore can not be logically consistent with both statements:
"Items created by mortals are 'magic items'";
"This is a very powerful item, or maybe artifact."


That is in no way a contradiction. The bracer is a mathamancy... thing. People have argued that the bracer was created as a side effect of the summoning spell. How could a spell made by findamancers and predictamancers also create a mathamancy object? That's like me linking my Florist and Lookamancer because I want to rain hellfire on my enemies.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:34 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Did the spell create the items itself, or is it just teleporting the items?

Your logic is rather flawed. If casters can create a spell scroll that summons the "Perfect Warlord" and also creates/"teleports" (your pick, the result is the same) items both minor and of artifact level to that Warlord, then that spell scroll is an artifact itself, and also invalidates the "artifacts are only created by the Titans" theory.

So we have Sizemore speculating that a spell scroll created by casters was able to create/produce an artifact.

Anything you can swap one for one with something else must be just as good as the other thing. But we have a thing that is swapped one-for-many with other things, and so its worth must be the sum of those things. The spell scroll that summoned Parson and created for him/brought him 3 items and/or artifacts must be the equal in value of all of those things. And thus if it brought/created an artifact, it is an artifact. And it was created by casters.

Or would you classify a spell scroll that gets you artifacts and other goodies as well as being less powerful than an artifact? And if so, why?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:46 pm

Sinrus wrote:That is in no way a contradiction. The bracer is a mathamancy... thing. People have argued that the bracer was created as a side effect of the summoning spell. How could a spell made by findamancers and predictamancers also create a mathamancy object? That's like me linking my Florist and Lookamancer because I want to rain hellfire on my enemies.
More illogic. What relationship does the type of magic have to do with anything here? If anything at all, it supports my position: The summoning scroll, created by Findamancers and Predictamancers, also created/brought Parson 3 other items, of various schools of magic, one stated to possibly be an artifact. Therefore its value is possibly that of an artifact, plus the value of Parson, glasses, and sword.

How is this hard to understand? Is it because "getting Parson everything he was missing" can be interpreted as both creating or "teleporting" the items to him? And if so, can someone try to explain to me what the effective difference is between those two terms? Because I for one value the million dollars that just appears (teleporting method) in my lap as much as I value the million dollars that I effortlessly and undetectably print (created method) for myself. They spend the same, and thus have the same value.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Sinrus » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:53 pm

I fail to see the illogic since you never pointed it out, but yes it does agree with you. That may be a side effect of trying to help you prove your point.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby multilis » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:54 pm

The spell did not create Parson, it teleported him. Similarly it may not have made the bracer but found a creation of the titans hidden somewheres as far as Sizemore knows.

In some games there are spells such as "summon hero"... they only summon from an available pool of heros, and the pool can run empty which makes spell useless. (The heros have to already exist somewheres on the map/scenario). A few of those heros end up being worth many many times the summoning cost, in other cases a hero might be of such different alignment to be useless (eg undead hero when you are good guys).
Last edited by multilis on Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby BCCroaker » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:55 pm

Oberon wrote:
theseus2x wrote:Maybe Baldur mucked up.
Well, yeah. That is the only real conclusion one can draw from the chain of logic.

1) Buy a summoning spell for 350,000 shmuckers;
2) Get a damn good Warlord;
3) Get a pair of glasses useless to anyone but your new Warlord (duplicates an ability everyone else has);
4) Get a bracer worth 500,000+ shmuckers;
5) Get a magic item sword;
6) Sell bracer, now you have a 500,000+ shmuckers and a useful Warlord with a magic sword;
7) Go to step 1 and ***PROFIT***

Except the Bracer only functions attached to a watch with a calculator keyboard; I assume there is only one of these in Erfworld so the bracer was made specifically for Parson. To speculate further, this implies that the spell itself produced it as the nature of the "perfect warlord" was not known in advance, indeed Stanley's wishes and Wanda's lack of expertise may have had some effect on the outcome.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:03 pm

Sinrus wrote:I fail to see the illogic since you never pointed it out, but yes it does agree with you. That may be a side effect of trying to help you prove your point.
You were helping me? The context of what you wrote made it look like the opposite. When I say "what we have are contradictory statements" and you start out by saying "That is in no way a contradiction", it sure looks like you're disagreeing with me, not like you're trying to help prove my point.

BCCroaker wrote:Except the Bracer only functions attached to a watch with a calculator keyboard; I assume there is only one of these in Erfworld so the bracer was made specifically for Parson. To speculate further, this implies that the spell itself produced it as the nature of the "perfect warlord" was not known in advance, indeed Stanley's wishes and Wanda's lack of expertise may have had some effect on the outcome.
I'm not sure I see how this makes any difference. The watch came with Parson and was therefore also summoned by the summoning scroll, and this fact does not change the "get more value than you paid" equation of the summoning scroll at all.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby dan2178 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:05 pm

Oberon wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Did the spell create the items itself, or is it just teleporting the items?

Your logic is rather flawed. If casters can create a spell scroll that summons the "Perfect Warlord" and also creates/"teleports" (your pick, the result is the same) items both minor and of artifact level to that Warlord, then that spell scroll is an artifact itself, and also invalidates the "artifacts are only created by the Titans" theory.

So we have Sizemore speculating that a spell scroll created by casters was able to create/produce an artifact.

Anything you can swap one for one with something else must be just as good as the other thing. But we have a thing that is swapped one-for-many with other things, and so its worth must be the sum of those things. The spell scroll that summoned Parson and created for him/brought him 3 items and/or artifacts must be the equal in value of all of those things. And thus if it brought/created an artifact, it is an artifact. And it was created by casters.

Or would you classify a spell scroll that gets you artifacts and other goodies as well as being less powerful than an artifact? And if so, why?


Uh, you rely quite a bit on presumptions:

1) You assume that anything you can swap one for one must be just as good as the other thing. I don't see any evidence where that is the case in Erfworld. In fact, there seems to be evidence to the contrary. Charlie essentially operates by making deals where his side benefits at the expense of his clients.

2) You assume that a magic spell created by casters can't transport an already created artifact made by the Titans. I see no evidence to support or disprove this theory. Thus, I don't see any reason to criticize the logic of others based on this assumption.

3) You assume that all artifacts are worth more than all non-artifacts. All we know is that artifacts are made by the Titans. The Arkentools are very powerful artifacts but there could be minor artifacts that are less powerful than some magic items.
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