Book 2 – Text Updates 011

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:05 pm

Oberon wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Did the spell create the items itself, or is it just teleporting the items?

Your logic is rather flawed. If casters can create a spell scroll that summons the "Perfect Warlord" and also creates/"teleports" (your pick, the result is the same) items both minor and of artifact level to that Warlord, then that spell scroll is an artifact itself, and also invalidates the "artifacts are only created by the Titans" theory.

So we have Sizemore speculating that a spell scroll created by casters was able to create/produce an artifact.

Anything you can swap one for one with something else must be just as good as the other thing. But we have a thing that is swapped one-for-many with other things, and so its worth must be the sum of those things. The spell scroll that summoned Parson and created for him/brought him 3 items and/or artifacts must be the equal in value of all of those things. And thus if it brought/created an artifact, it is an artifact. And it was created by casters.

Or would you classify a spell scroll that gets you artifacts and other goodies as well as being less powerful than an artifact? And if so, why?


Now you are just grasping at straws
Hell let's use a dnd example... a low level wizard can cast spells on a unwilling-wizard higher level then himself; does his success imply that he is more powerful than the wizard? no. Is the spell he used itself more powerful than the higher level wizard who could cast that same spell aswell as other higher levels spells? no ofourse not. Sure it gets harder to pull off the casting the higher the enemies level is, but the fact of the matter is that the magic of a lower level wizard CAN effect a higher level one... knowing this, why must the spell be considered more powerful than the artifacts it can summon? if a lower level wizard can teleport a higher level wizard, then why can't a lower level level spell teleport a higher level item?

Since when must a spell be more powerful than the artifact that it summons to be able to summon it?
All the spell is doing is moving one object from one place to another place... tell me what magic is there in place to prevent those artifacts from being teleported? nothing. Those arifacts have all kinds of powers but they do not have somekind of archor spell on them that prevents them from being stolen


and hell who the hell ever said that ALL artifacts are more powerful than ALL other magic items anyway? if the titians made an ordinary spoon it would be considered an artifact, but does that mean the spoon is more powerful than a book that can send instant messages? rarer yes, unique perhaps, but not necessarily more powerful

hell despite the knowledge of the spell, parson feels as though the sword was representative of erfworld itself trying to manipulate him... as if it was erfworld who gave him the sword and the summoning spell was just the delivery system
Last edited by MonteCristo on Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby mastigo » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:09 pm

Oberon wrote:
Sinrus wrote:That is in no way a contradiction. The bracer is a mathamancy... thing. People have argued that the bracer was created as a side effect of the summoning spell. How could a spell made by findamancers and predictamancers also create a mathamancy object? That's like me linking my Florist and Lookamancer because I want to rain hellfire on my enemies.
More illogic. What relationship does the type of magic have to do with anything here? If anything at all, it supports my position: The summoning scroll, created by Findamancers and Predictamancers, also created/brought Parson 3 other items, of various schools of magic, one stated to possibly be an artifact. Therefore its value is possibly that of an artifact, plus the value of Parson, glasses, and sword.

How is this hard to understand? Is it because "getting Parson everything he was missing" can be interpreted as both creating or "teleporting" the items to him? And if so, can someone try to explain to me what the effective difference is between those two terms? Because I for one value the million dollars that just appears (teleporting method) in my lap as much as I value the million dollars that I effortlessly and undetectably print (created method) for myself. They spend the same, and thus have the same value.

The difference is that with the creation you can do it again. The teleport version would just move the money/valueable object fom your vault to you.

Also, being as valueable as a rtifact does not mean the spell IS an artifact. Furthermore, its the value of an artifact less the cost of a caster capable of casting it, less the value of the delay, and less the uncertainty factor. And all of that assumes that the bracer IS an artifact.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Yucca » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:23 pm

People seem to be overlooking the fact that Sizemore made the "maybe an artifact" comment before it was made clear that the items that were popping in the rations were a continuation of the spell. We received that insight only with the arrival of the last part of the sword. When the bracer popped the origin and cause of these items were still a mystery.

Oberon wrote:Anything you can swap one for one with something else must be just as good as the other thing. But we have a thing that is swapped one-for-many with other things, and so its worth must be the sum of those things. The spell scroll that summoned Parson and created for him/brought him 3 items and/or artifacts must be the equal in value of all of those things. And thus if it brought/created an artifact, it is an artifact. And it was created by casters.


No. You have no basis to make this assumption. If it was an economic transaction then you might have a basis for this assertion, but it wasn't. Moneymancers were not involved. It was a last ditch desperate move by GK, and those have impressive (sometimes) and unpredictable (usually) outcomes. Really the bracer isn't the important part, it's Parson's calculator watch that is the useful thing. GK was just lucky that Parson was wearing it when he got PLOTed. It's not uncommon in the genre to have a spell that gives a small chance at a huge payoff. The bracer just lets him use it a bit easier.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby badninja » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:25 pm

I loved the Star Wars reference Lobot is one of my favorite background charters. That artifact is interesting in what it can do, I cannot fathom what Parson could do if he got his hands on it. A sad fate is that of Date-a-mancers they just became so cool and the fact the are got rid of so easily because of what they have gleaned. Good update and I feel that Duncan would make a good warlord for GK next to Lady Silvia.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:26 pm

MonteCristo wrote:Now you are just grasping at straws
Hell let's use a dnd example.

Right, because of course using an example from a totally different system is not like "grasping at straws."

MonteCristo wrote:and hell who the hell ever said that ALL artifacts are more powerful than ALL other magic items anyway?
If you'd care to provide an example, we could discuss the merits of your argument. As it is, all you appear to have is rampant speculation about something which has never even been hinted at within the story.

That, and the refusal to accept the rather simple logical basis that things which are traded for one another must have equal value.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Glenn » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:27 pm

I find it interesting that Duncan has undergone a major personality change as an apparent result of changing sides. This might be a result of the faith he has in Jillian, but I wonder if it might more plausibly be explained an example of Name-o-mancy? Does the name of a side influence the personality of the side's units?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:42 pm

Yucca wrote:People seem to be overlooking the fact that Sizemore made the "maybe an artifact" comment before it was made clear that the items that were popping in the rations were a continuation of the spell. We received that insight only with the arrival of the last part of the sword. When the bracer popped the origin and cause of these items were still a mystery.
Which would then lead us to the conclusion that the lack of speculation about magic items and possibly artifacts simply popping in with someone's daily rations was a huge failure in the plot of the story. And not that the "maybe an artifact" analysis by Sizemore would have been any different had he known the origin of the bracer. He was making a judgment based upon its power level, and if the artifact/magic item is as simple as Titan/caster creation he would not have been able to make that judgment without knowing the origin.

Yucca wrote:
Oberon wrote:Anything you can swap one for one with something else must be just as good as the other thing. But we have a thing that is swapped one-for-many with other things, and so its worth must be the sum of those things. The spell scroll that summoned Parson and created for him/brought him 3 items and/or artifacts must be the equal in value of all of those things. And thus if it brought/created an artifact, it is an artifact. And it was created by casters.


No. You have no basis to make this assumption. If it was an economic transaction then you might have a basis for this assertion, but it wasn't.
Funny, I thought it was quite clear that the summoning scroll was purchased for 350,000 shmuckers. And that the bracer could be sold for 500,000 shmuckers, and "maybe more." Care to try to explain how this was not an economic transaction?

Yucca wrote:It was a last ditch desperate move by GK, and those have impressive (sometimes) and unpredictable (usually) outcomes.
This is not relevant. The scroll was for sale to anyone who had the shmuckers. The fact that GK bought it while in a desperate position is important to the story line, but not important to the cost and the effect of the scroll.

Yucca wrote:Really the bracer isn't the important part, it's Parson's calculator watch that is the useful thing. GK was just lucky that Parson was wearing it when he got PLOTed. It's not uncommon in the genre to have a spell that gives a small chance at a huge payoff. The bracer just lets him use it a bit easier.
This makes zero sense at all. The scroll summoned Parson who was wearing the watch, and the scroll provided Parson with the bracer that works with the watch. Are you claiming that this would have been the same case had Parson not been wearing the watch? *sigh* The text on the Luckamancy Charms is also quite clear. Parson is being provided with things which will make him the Perfect Warlord. The bracer without the watch would not have helped to achieve that goal at all, and thus would never have happened.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby dan2178 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:48 pm

Oberon wrote:Funny, I thought it was quite clear that the summoning scroll was purchased for 350,000 shmuckers. And that the bracer could be sold for 500,000 shmuckers, and "maybe more." Care to try to explain how this was not an economic transaction?



I think you just disproved your assumption that swapped items must have equal value if:
A) Summoning scroll cost 350,000 shmuckers
B) Bracer worth 500,000+ shmuckers
C) Bracer is a product of the summoning scroll

If A, B, and C are all true, GK essentially swapped 350,000 shmuckers for 500,000+ shmuckers.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:56 pm

dan2178 wrote:
Oberon wrote:Funny, I thought it was quite clear that the summoning scroll was purchased for 350,000 shmuckers. And that the bracer could be sold for 500,000 shmuckers, and "maybe more." Care to try to explain how this was not an economic transaction?



I think you just disproved your assumption that swapped items must have equal value if:
A) Summoning scroll cost 350,000 shmuckers
B) Bracer worth 500,000+ shmuckers
C) Bracer is a product of the summoning scroll

If A, B, and C are all true, GK essentially swapped 350,000 shmuckers for 500,000+ shmuckers.
Plus the value of Parson with glasses and sword. I'm happy to be proven wrong on the other side of the argument. :) It's just more support for the position that artifacts can be created by casters.

mastigo wrote:The difference is that with the creation you can do it again. The teleport version would just move the money/valueable object fom your vault to you.
Wrong on both counts. I never said that the creation method could be repeated, and I never said that the valuable object came from my own vault. Clearly Parson's items didn't come from the GK vault. Don't take my analogy and add your own conditions to it until it becomes invalid. That's too easy. Just take it in the context it was given, that an item that is summoned or teleported to me is just as valuable to me as an item which is created for me, and that the effect used being different doesn't make the value any different.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Yucca » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:59 pm

Oberon wrote:And not that the "maybe an artifact" analysis by Sizemore would have been any different had he known the origin of the bracer.

Circular reasoning. The discussion is about "what counts when categorizing something as an artifact", you can't simply assume that "origin doesn't". You are taking your conclusion as a premise in your reasoning.

Oberon wrote:Funny, I thought it was quite clear that the summoning scroll was purchased for 350,000 shmuckers. And that the bracer could be sold for 500,000 shmuckers, and "maybe more." Care to try to explain how this was not an economic transaction?


Buying the spell was an economic transaction, therefore we can assume that both parties agreed that the spell was worth 350k. Casting the spell and what comes after that are not an economic transaction.

Oberon wrote:This is not relevant. The scroll was for sale to anyone who had the shmuckers. The fact that GK bought it while in a desperate position is important to the story line, but not important to the cost and the effect of the scroll.

I had the feeling that it was a custom job designed at Wanda's request. Regardless, it's relevant to the story, and therefore it most definitely is relevant to the effect.

Oberon wrote:The bracer without the watch would not have helped to achieve that goal at all, and thus would never have happened.


Right, if Parson hadn't been wearing the watch the spell wouldn't have given him the bracer. Like I said, a chance at a huge payoff, but not a sure thing. Very common in the genre.
Last edited by Yucca on Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Yucca » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:01 pm

Oberon wrote:Plus the value of Parson with glasses and sword. I'm happy to be proven wrong on the other side of the argument. :) It's just more support for the position that artifacts can be created by casters.


No it isn't. Disproving that "only equals can summon each other" weakens your argument.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:21 pm

Oberon wrote:Plus the value of Parson with glasses and sword. I'm happy to be proven wrong on the other side of the argument. :) It's just more support for the position that artifacts can be created by casters.

no it isn't...
Artifacts are by definition, items created by the titans... magic items are be definition, are created by mortals... they are not defined by their level of power, but by their origin. If the spell did indeed CREATE the bracer itself then the bracers is a magic item, however if the bracer was CREATED by the titans or erfworld itself and the spell merely the delivery system, then it is an artifact

Just take it in the context it was given, that an item that is summoned or teleported to me is just as valuable to me as an item which is created for me, and that the effect used being different doesn't make the value any different.

who the hell cares about what it's value is too you? just because the value TO YOU doesn't change does NOT mean that the level of magic needed to give the item to you is the same. there is a WORLD of difference between moving an item and actually creating it from nothing. The method of creation is in an of itself much more powerful than mere teleportation. It takes a titan to create an artifact, but that does not mean that only a titan can move that artifact... titans create artifacts, while mortals can only summon/teleport/move them

Which would then lead us to the conclusion that the lack of speculation about magic items and possibly artifacts simply popping in with someone's daily rations was a huge failure in the plot of the story. And not that the "maybe an artifact" analysis by Sizemore would have been any different had he known the origin of the bracer. He was making a judgment based upon its power level, and if the artifact/magic item is as simple as Titan/caster creation he would not have been able to make that judgment without knowing the origin.

He did not make a "judgement" only a speculation,
a judgement would mean that he had come to a conclusion; he never concluded that it was an artifact, just that it MIGHT be an artifact
he does not know how powerful the bracer was, he did not know that it was something that casters could create, he did not know if it was something only a titan could create... he was GUESSING. he did not know the origin of the bracer at the time so he was in no position to say for sure what it was, and merely guessed that it was an artifact because it was a possibility
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby dan2178 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:35 pm

Glenn wrote:I find it interesting that Duncan has undergone a major personality change as an apparent result of changing sides. This might be a result of the faith he has in Jillian, but I wonder if it might more plausibly be explained an example of Name-o-mancy? Does the name of a side influence the personality of the side's units?


It could be the name or perhaps the ruler. Or it could be due to Duncan's promotion to chief warlord of FAQ. Maybe it was due to the way he lost the battle to Jillian, thus opening him up to thinking more "outside the box"?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Moik » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:07 pm

I think Duncan Scone has a bit of Duncan Idaho in him. I'm not sure what gave me that impression, but that's what I got during this update.

Don't f*** with Duncan.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby splintermute » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:26 pm

Keep in mind that Sizemore's half a million schmuckers estimate is also a guess, and that guess is predicated on the assumption that the bracer could be sold to someone else. There's been no indication that the bracer would work for anyone but Parson (and there has been one contra-indication - the sword of ruthlessness had no apparent effect on Bogroll. It didn't activate until Parson touched it), which means it might not be a separate item/artifact - it might just be an extension of Parson's perfect warlord-ness. Charlie believes the bracer might be useful without Parson, but we don't know if he's right.

The relative value of the spell/bracer seems to be irrelevant - there are no Erfworld rules against price-gouging (see Charlie), so I don't see why you couldn't just consider the spell the converse - a fabulous bargain. Or perhaps it was heavily subsidized by the hippiemancers, allowing the findamancers and predictamancers to offer Wanda a huge discount. And if the bracer is unique to Parson (which is likely, considering it was designed to fit over his watch), then the summoning/creation of the bracer is not likely to be reproducible, so we don't have to worry about an infinite profit loop.

The only definitive statement that we have on the distinction between artifacts and magic items is Sizemore's statement that magic items are created by mortals, and artifacts are not. Things created by a caster, even a tri-mancer, are definitely magic items - the laurel, the eye-books. The arkentools are definitely artifacts. The bracer, assuming it is separable from Parson, falls into a gray area, in that it was popped in daily rations - was it provided by the casters (or Wanda?) as an extension of the spell, or was it provided by Erfworld/Fate/the titans - this is reminiscent of the stuffamancy debate from summer update 028.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Casander » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:37 pm

fractal wrote:Well, if FAQ doesn't work out for Duncan, he can always see if Cloud City has any openings, with that headgear.


Or House Atreides... like, maybe, DUNCAN IDAHO? You know? Patrick Stewart's character in the movie Dune?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Casander » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:49 pm

Casander wrote:
fractal wrote:Well, if FAQ doesn't work out for Duncan, he can always see if Cloud City has any openings, with that headgear.


Or House Atreides... like, maybe, DUNCAN IDAHO? You know? Patrick Stewart's character in the movie Dune?


Doh. Patrick Stewart played Gurney Halleck.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby Jeivar » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:08 pm

Interesting to get to know Duncan a little.

And to add my two cents to the theory-stew: My first and current thought on reading that last line was that the possible battle would be extremely intense, destructive, and unpredictable. Two awesome forces clashing.

On a side note; Has an upper limit for levels ever been established? I'm wondering what Jillian's 9-or-10 levels really mean.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby JustDoug » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:10 pm

multilis wrote:The spell did not create Parson, it teleported him. Similarly it may not have made the bracer but found a creation of the titans hidden somewheres as far as Sizemore knows.


Probably not. Recall the the Bracer required the addition of Parson's calculator watch to be able to do all its neat tricks, or vice versa. That posits something made for the occasion rather than a pre-existing object- if for no other reason than story continuity.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 011

Postby dan2178 » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:30 pm

Jeivar wrote:Interesting to get to know Duncan a little.

And to add my two cents to the theory-stew: My first and current thought on reading that last line was that the possible battle would be extremely intense, destructive, and unpredictable. Two awesome forces clashing.

On a side note; Has an upper limit for levels ever been established? I'm wondering what Jillian's 9-or-10 levels really mean.


There's no upper limit but experience needed for levels is expontential so it is much, much more difficult to go from level 9 to 10 as it is from 1 to 2. Ansom, at level 10, is the highest known unit.
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