Book 2 – Text Updates 012

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby SuperDuperHai2U » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:00 pm

btw, ossomer got some ossom arms. or his legs are just tiny.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby Sinrus » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:10 pm

gazes_also wrote:A bit off topic, but has anyone considered what might happen if Wanda gets croaked?
As a Croakamancer and bearer of the Archenpliers, could she auto-decrypt and become something ever scarier?

To unrelated quotes come to mind; "Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and "I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds"

Just throwing it out there.


So when Wanda dies she's going to go nuclear? Or turn into a Hindu?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby fractal » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:24 pm

gazes_also wrote:A bit off topic, but has anyone considered what might happen if Wanda gets croaked?
As a Croakamancer and bearer of the Archenpliers, could she auto-decrypt and become something ever scarier?

To unrelated quotes come to mind; "Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and "I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds"

Just throwing it out there.

Yeah, that's been speculated ever since Wanda showed an interest in the Pliers (and certainly since she acquired them). Wanda, Lich Queen.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby Casander » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:28 pm

fractal wrote:
gazes_also wrote:A bit off topic, but has anyone considered what might happen if Wanda gets croaked?
As a Croakamancer and bearer of the Archenpliers, could she auto-decrypt and become something ever scarier?

To unrelated quotes come to mind; "Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and "I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds"

Just throwing it out there.

Yeah, that's been speculated ever since Wanda showed an interest in the Pliers (and certainly since she acquired them). Wanda, Lich Queen.


But if she does, would she even notice? Wanda doesn't strike as the sort to acknowledge when she has been liched. ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby PlotArmour » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:03 pm

A few things to quickly respond to:
Once again... all you proved was power over turns... nothing more

The point isn't that Jillian can't make any decisions, it's that decisions she would normally take are made by her alliance leader. It will come off as completely absurd if Jillian can secretly add another side to her/their forces, and sneak them in without telling anyone. It seems like an allied side if she's not paying them too, and Charlie giving money to pay them is little different (also, if they are her forces, she can just disband them at will, making them pretty useless to Charlie). This isn't meant to be a decisive point of logic (though some others which I will get to are), but it refutes the claims you were making earlier that alliances don't affect your decision making ability. They do.
just as Ansom could not tell instinctively that he was loosing siege units, the RCC leader would not instinctively know Jillian was adding units to her own forces

Not in the same hex. Completely different. If he was in the same hex, assumedly he could look over and see the points and health of his units was vanishing, and realise they were dead (though not sure if siege, being equipment, has points, etc)
Jillian's forces are only useful if they are in the garrison... anywhere else and they can be avoided

No, they can be useful in a number of places, I've explained why already. But I'm getting tired of continually engaging you on a point that isn't terribly relevant, and was a side issue to begin with since you've conceded they share turns.
You're comparing it to thinkamancy message? seriously?
how about comparing it to dittomancy which can quadruple the number of arrows you fire, double bonus, special, and even duplicate surviving units?

Tell me, how useful is the ability to teleport a small army a few hexes on a normally? Sure the masterclass mancer can teleport a small army of archons, but she might be limited to only moving them a few hexes... how often would moving a small army only a few hexes be useful? Normally moving them so few spaces would be pretty useless as you might aswell wait for the next turn and move them normally... no the primary usefulness of teleporting comes from teleporting a few units over a very long distance, such as getting a chief warlord or a caster from one battlefield to another (if you can't set up a rely system)... only reason Jillian finds use in teleporting many units over a few hex's is because she was not able to bring them into the hex with her from the begining because she wanted to set up an unforeseeable ambush... really it's less like this is a broken mechanic and more like charlie and jillian are exploiting a normally useless ability (teleporting many troops over a very short distance)

and teleporting uses no move so it does not violate the rule... that's why its called teleporting... that is the very nature of the magic and i am certain other turn based games have had it.

A few things here, in what is a thunderously absurd post.
a) We don't know what duplicate surviving units means... does it mean you double the chances they survive a battle, does it mean you physically create a double? Does it mean something else. So far all we have seen it do is quadruple arrows nearby the caster. I assume you raise this as an example of gamebreaking moves available (it's unclear because I never suggested thinkmancy was gamebreaking, quite the reverse), but there's nothing gamebreaking we've seen so far from a force multiplier (that's the basis of most casters here), particularly one which so far only has been used on arrows.
b) The reason for thinkmancy being brought up by me, was because you had claimed that it was an example of magic being applied during another persons turn. I noted that defensive magic in your own hex wasn't really much different to self defence, and that thinkmancy being able to work outside hex borders wasn't gamebreaking (in fact, without the ability to work across hexes on someone elses turn, it would be pretty useless). I don't claim there is some conceptual rule that prevents teleporting working like that, merely that if a caster can do that on their lonesome then it breaks the game. I'll explain why right now:

If you can teleport an army into another person's hex during their turn then even if you can only do it from a few hexes away, the turn system is basically meaningless... because movement is only limited when you are in a hex with another side. By this logic Side A can transport an army from Unaroyal to GK in a turn using a relay, end turn several hexes away when the other side just finds out you're there and has to start gathering their forces, and then just teleport that army the remaining few hexes on their turn without giving them the ability to move any forces, or respond to what you've done in any way. It's impossible to defend against a move like this. Not to mention all the ways it would make it impossible to defend passes, or plan tactically on a battlefield. It forces every side to retreat to their capital with all their forces, and wait for an attack, which will come with no warning (if you spread out, they'll just circumvent your forces with a teleport, ridiculous). That's fine if you're GK, and have no cities left like in book 1, but it renders every other strategy useless (especially in a world where the enemy will disband if you kill their ruler). Clearly, this sort of "defend the capital only" plan will be useless as the other side keeps taking cities, and becomes more wealthy.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby fractal » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:30 pm

Regarding teleporting, it would not be nearly so "game-breaking" if you had to have a unit in the destination hex. In this case, there is a unit in the receiving hex - Jillian herself. For that matter, we've seen powerful casters do many gamebreaking things, such as Wanda uncroaking thousands of infantry in a single turn, then leading them in a dance fight. Or Sizemore wrecking the entire city.

Not that I expect a bunch of archons to teleport in.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby randomstar » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:56 pm

nice update, with Ossomer trying to be the smart guy and failing (Duncan don't care about royalty from the beginning, great!)
But also there is the confirm that Trem is no heir, only a royal unit that will disband like every other Jets. I'm sorry for this promised disband, he is one of my new favorite characters, and is going to be glued to the ground till the end, too. That's too bad. Even if this outcome could be allright within the war, it cancel the chances of interesting story.

regarding the battle, I like to draw different possibilities (but I'm non gamer, so don’t' know applicable rules). Here is another option. Back in Book 1, Parson and Co left the garrison to go in the dungeon, and crashed the tower, walls, tunnels. In summer updates, we saw TV air forces blown up by shockamancy traps by carpudians, as Caesar tells from Chocula, were the garrison blow up their forces.... What if Stately last defence plan is retiring to dungeon and shocking up the tower, with GK dragons and flyers? and let Jillian destroy the survivors? possible if Misterious Caster is a shockamancer, while Vanna the turnamancer is busy popping heir in Faq.

BTW I'm now nearly expecting archons popping out from somewhere (maybe from underground tunnels). Allied with Faq, they are on his turn, so Jetstone don't need to notice an extra turn going on.

Really can't wait to know what comes next, this pace is killing me.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby atalex » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:18 pm

Plot Armour:

We've covered this in another thread. It's not my fault you don't understand English.


Well, I don't read every thread here, because my life is not so pointless that I spend twelve hours a day trolling an online forum, wailing and gnashing my teeth because the author of a web comic does not cater to my every narcissistic whim as to what constitutes good or bad writing.

And I am quite fluent in English, but I'm a little rusty in the language of preening, pompous, self-righteous douchebags, so I think I'll go back to enjoying the web comic and just ignore your tedious ramblings from now on.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby PlotArmour » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:23 pm

It's gamebreaking if you have a unit in the area or not, just mildly less so.

Your 2 counter examples are laughable.
1) Wanda's whole power involves uncroaking, she'd be pretty useless if she couldn't create new forces, just as a clothmancer, dirtmancer, etc. It's also simply a force multiplier, no different to dittomancy, or the basic ability a warlord possesses to create bonuses. It's actually worse, because her army has the lowest level of ability (which is why Ansom could wade in and route them with the pliers by himself), and won't last more than a few turns. It doesn't change the mechanics, it follows them. Casters, like Warlords, are at heart force multipliers, with some of them having more exceptional or unusual abilities. Nothing game breaking about what Wanda did, indeed if Ansom had just pulled back a few turns they'd have turned to dust. Game over for GK.
2) Sizemore did that with a 3 casters link (at least one of whom was a master caster aside from Sizemore). That's fine, because it was a pre-established thing, which you can only do in unique circumstances. Sizemore couldn't have done it to the enemies capital, hexes away, just to his home base, where he was familiar with the structures. Also, it killed GK too... they only got out of it due to the portal, and then Wanda attuning to an Arkentool that let them resurrect everybody... it would not work under any other conditions. Hardly game breaking.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby balder » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:51 pm

PlotArmour is banned. We have one rule in these forums: don't be a dick. PlotArmour violated it somewhere between 15 and 25 times, and was warned more than once. Hate to do this, but this is the last reactions thread that's going to be all about shouting him down. Carry on.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby MonteCristo » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:09 pm

PlotArmour wrote:The point isn't that Jillian can't make any decisions, it's that decisions she would normally take are made by her alliance leader. It will come off as completely absurd if Jillian can secretly add another side to her/their forces, and sneak them in without telling anyone. It seems like an allied side if she's not paying them too, and Charlie giving money to pay them is little different (also, if they are her forces, she can just disband them at will, making them pretty useless to Charlie). This isn't meant to be a decisive point of logic (though some others which I will get to are), but it refutes the claims you were making earlier that alliances don't affect your decision making ability. They do.

We know that Jillian was able to add the giants as natural allies without asking the RCC... We also know that Charlie is the one forking over the cash to cover the turnamancer; this is also done with out the RCC's knowledge... as such i see no reason she would have to ask the RCC if she can add archons to her forces or see anything stopping charlie from giving her money.

And yes she can just disband them... just as i went over with alliance's, this is all a matter of trust and desperation... giving Jillian full control of his archons is not an ideal situation, but due to the fact that Charlie must keep himself secret from the rest of the RCC, he has no choice but to give Jillian full control of his units and trust her to use them as he planned. However, we also have to take into account that the archons might be able to "turn" back to charlie's side... so Jillian isn't REALLY in control if she does not have their loyalty

And i pointed out before that we have evidence that Charlie CAN just give another side full control of his units without allying to them

No, they can be useful in a number of places, I've explained why already. But I'm getting tired of continually engaging you on a point that isn't terribly relevant, and was a side issue to begin with since you've conceded they share turns.

You mentioned WHERE they could put jillian's forces, but you did not say how it would be useful... fact is, if they were not in the garrision, then Wanda and the dwagons could have avoided them

I assume you raise this as an example of gamebreaking moves available

No i brought it up to say that teleporting is no more gamebreaking then any other casting we have seen occur during the enemies turn... you know just like erupting a volcano and croaking thousands of units in one move... whether or not this is "gamebreaking" depends on your definition of "gambreaking"... frankly my point was really just that magic is a very powerufl force in erfworld and seeing them do some awesome things does not make them gamebreaking.

There's a difference between "gamebreaking" and an "exploitable mechanic"...
If you can teleport an army into another person's hex during their turn then even if you can only do it from a few hexes away, the turn system is basically meaningless... because movement is only limited when you are in a hex with another side. By this logic Side A can transport an army from Unaroyal to GK in a turn using a relay, end turn several hexes away when the other side just finds out you're there and has to start gathering their forces, and then just teleport that army the remaining few hexes on their turn without giving them the ability to move any forces, or respond to what you've done in any way. It's impossible to defend against a move like this. Not to mention all the ways it would make it impossible to defend passes, or plan tactically on a battlefield. It forces every side to retreat to their capital with all their forces, and wait for an attack, which will come with no warning (if you spread out, they'll just circumvent your forces with a teleport, ridiculous). That's fine if you're GK, and have no cities left like in book 1, but it renders every other strategy useless (especially in a world where the enemy will disband if you kill their ruler). Clearly, this sort of "defend the capital only" plan will be useless as the other side keeps taking cities, and becomes more wealthy.


First off, do you realize how hard it would be in erfworld to actually set up a relay like that? caster's are rare to pop and expensive to hire on... to create a relay system that can get you from FAQ to GK, would require DOZENS master class casters of that particular type... and thus far we have yet to see a side with more than 4 casters... Sure it's possible to hire casters from the magic kingdom, but one has to ask how often casters would be willing to work in the field, as i'm sure most of them would want to avoid being croaked; you might have to pay them a lot to go out in the field... this is almost impossible to set up... hell with all the money you'd be spending on those casters, you might be able to greatly increase the size of your amry to the point where you do not need to make a surprise attack like that

Furtharmore, we don't even know the limits of teleportation, i said a few hex's but it could be even less than that and only be one hex... and while we've been throwing around the term "army" the fact of the matter is that the number of troops being really limited... we could be talking like 30-50 knight-class units, and that's probably not gonna be enough to crush the capitol of most sides (aside from when that side is on the brink of falling like GK was)... though it would be enough to reinforce an already existing force and tip the scales in your favor.... but an expensive relay system does not seem it would be worht it if all you are doing is bring in surprise reinforcements, might has well just hire on a foolamancer and just make your enemy misjudge the size of your army; that way when the enemy is done preparing for your attack they will be ill prepared... which is exactly what GK did to the Jetstone by disguising the dwagons as ground siege units

Not to mention most sides are cautious about sending casters into the field... if those mancers use all their juice to help your units get around an obstacle, they will not have any left for themselves to run away if the enemy finds them on the next turn and tries to croak em'... and also their could be defenses against teleportation, like setting up magical barriers or some such.


[EDIT]
PlotArmour is banned. We have one rule in these forums: don't be a dick. PlotArmour violated it somewhere between 15 and 25 times, and was warned more than once. Hate to do this, but this is the last reactions thread that's going to be all about shouting him down. Carry on.

well there' goes the point of my reply =/
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby Dr Pepper » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:12 pm

I hereby request that PlotArmour be decrypted after Book 2 is done, so that they can say whether or not their dire predictions about the direction of the narrative were fullfilled.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:18 pm

balder wrote:PlotArmour is banned. We have one rule in these forums: don't be a dick. PlotArmour violated it somewhere between 15 and 25 times, and was warned more than once. Hate to do this, but this is the last reactions thread that's going to be all about shouting him down. Carry on.


Took you long enough. He certainly didn't seem to be getting any enjoyment out of reading the comic, and he was determined to get everyone else to admit it was not enjoyable.

Dr Pepper wrote:I hereby request that PlotArmour be decrypted after Book 2 is done, so that they can say whether or not their dire predictions about the direction of the narrative were fullfilled/


Thats missing the point. Arguing with PA was never about him being right or wrong. It was about him being wanting to write Erfworld himself.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby splintermute » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:22 pm

PlotArmour wrote:A few things to quickly respond to:
Once again... all you proved was power over turns... nothing more

The point isn't that Jillian can't make any decisions, it's that decisions she would normally take are made by her alliance leader. It will come off as completely absurd if Jillian can secretly add another side to her/their forces, and sneak them in without telling anyone. It seems like an allied side if she's not paying them too, and Charlie giving money to pay them is little different (also, if they are her forces, she can just disband them at will, making them pretty useless to Charlie). This isn't meant to be a decisive point of logic (though some others which I will get to are), but it refutes the claims you were making earlier that alliances don't affect your decision making ability. They do.


He's right, PlotArmour - the only power of an alliance commander that you've demonstrated is power over turns. The only limitation of alliances that we know of is that they all take the turn of the latest moving side, which in the case of RCC I was Jetstone, meaning it was Ansom's turn to end whenever he saw fit. If an alliance commander did have the extraordinary power and awareness that you're imputing to him, Jillian's last line on page 12 would be meaningless.

PlotArmour wrote:2) Sizemore did that with a 3 casters link (at least one of whom was a master caster aside from Sizemore). That's fine, because it was a pre-established thing, which you can only do in unique circumstances. Sizemore couldn't have done it to the enemies capital, hexes away, just to his home base, where he was familiar with the structures. Also, it killed GK too... they only got out of it due to the portal, and then Wanda attuning to an Arkentool that let them resurrect everybody... it would not work under any other conditions. Hardly game breaking.


Sizemore brought down GK on his own, before the volcano, although that was probably because he'd already spent several turns creating a fragile, collapsible tunnel system. Also, there's no indication that Sizemore or Maggie are Master Class - only Wanda and Jack have explicitly been designated as such.

balder wrote:PlotArmour is banned. We have one rule in these forums: don't be a dick. PlotArmour violated it somewhere between 15 and 25 times, and was warned more than once. Hate to do this, but this is the last reactions thread that's going to be all about shouting him down. Carry on.


Yay?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:00 am

MonteCristo wrote:[EDIT]
PlotArmour is banned. We have one rule in these forums: don't be a dick. PlotArmour violated it somewhere between 15 and 25 times, and was warned more than once. Hate to do this, but this is the last reactions thread that's going to be all about shouting him down. Carry on.

well there' goes the point of my reply =/


Don't worry, there's still me to disagree with :D

Though usually I prefer the debate about whether decryption is evil, or whatever other conspiracy theory I can cook up.

This debate about alliances and who can do what in them, or whether teleportation in Erfworld is gamebreaking (when we have only seen it through the caster portal, or maybe also the note teleport) ... meh.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby Angband » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:30 am

balder wrote:PlotArmour is banned. We have one rule in these forums: don't be a dick. PlotArmour violated it somewhere between 15 and 25 times, and was warned more than once. Hate to do this, but this is the last reactions thread that's going to be all about shouting him down. Carry on.


Thank you Rob.

Clearly, plot armour does not provide high enough defense to deflect a ban-hammer.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby Oberon » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:10 pm

MonteCristo wrote:First off, do you realize how hard it would be in erfworld to actually set up a relay like that? caster's are rare to pop and expensive to hire on... to create a relay system that can get you from FAQ to GK, would require DOZENS master class casters of that particular type... and thus far we have yet to see a side with more than 4 casters.
Not a disagreement, just a factual correction: GK had 5 casters at the start. The three members of the tri-mancer link - Misty, Jack, and Maggie - plus Sizemore and Wanda. But your point still holds, casters are rare and valuable, and something like this would be a great one-time stunt for hiring MK casters to pull off, but not likely to be a "standing orders" type tactic. Maybe Charlie or Parson could orchestrate something like this, if it is even possible at all.

ftl wrote:(Though I do hope that "hidden archon army" isn't what changes around this battle. Yeah, it's possible, but it seems like such a blunt instrument - Charlie does finesse and manipulation, not zerging with archons. I could buy one or two archons that help somehow, but not the "army appears and overwhelms Wanda via numbers" option...)
I beg to differ. Charlie is the type to use the amount of force required. Remember "How many Archons would it take to beat the GK garrison?" And then POP, there they are, Charlie's private archon zerg army.

PlotArmour wrote:If Charlie has 200 Archons committed to the battle, that's fine. What's ridiculous, and what makes it a Dues Ex Machina, is them turning up in the middle of the battlespace when logic to date tells us they can't, and winning the battle.
I've never been a fan of the archons. They are just too potent a unit, and in Book 1 they revealed their powers by using them whenever they were needed. And whether or not this potency comes as a combination of their own innate abilities with Charlie and the Arkendish (which by the way would not be unique to Charlie given that anyone else with the dish would be able to produce archons), it is still just too over the top for my tastes.

But that said, we have indeed seen archons teleport right into the middle of a battlespace.
Last edited by Oberon on Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby atalex » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:15 pm

learly, plot armour does not provide high enough defense to deflect a ban-hammer.


OH! King Banhammer = ban hammer! I finally get it. God, I'm stupid sometimes.

Meanwhile, back in the text update: Looking past the tactical significance of this update, what are people's thoughts about Ossomer's reactions in it. He's the second person (after Ansom) we've seen in the immediate aftermath of Decryption, and I find his responses interesting. Although his conscious mind is, naturally, devoted to Wanda and her agenda, he seems to me to have a lot of unconscious ambivalence about Decryption (using the world "alas" when contemplating the wholesale decryption of the Jetstone survivors) to say nothing of the mass disbanding of thousands of troops and casters, plus his brother. In fact, he seems so ambivalent that he is moved to try and turn Duncan (albeit ineffectively) in a futile effort to avoid conflict. This attitude on the part of Ossomer, perhaps just moments after Decryption strikes me as Very Interesting, particularly in light of Ansom's persistent efforts to turn nearly everyone he meets to the cause of Toolism without the necessity for Decryption (which means an automatic turn to Toolism). I get the feeling that despite their enforced loyalty to Wanda, most Decrypted don't like their new status very much.

On a semi-related note: What do folks here think about Ossomer's use of the 'Royalty is Obsolete" catchphrase. Coincidence? Something that Ansom has internalized and passed on to Ossomer off-screen (unlikely from what we've seen)? Something Wanda picked up from Parson and then spread through the Decrypted like a meme? Thoughts, anybody?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby Ninjaguineapig » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:04 pm

The Warlord Formerly Known as Prince Ossomer wrote:Royalty is Obsolete.


That line is the philosophy of Toolism, if not it's slogan. He knew that even before he was Decrypted, only now he believes it.
Last edited by Ninjaguineapig on Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 012

Postby Sinrus » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:30 pm

And he wasn't trying to turn Duncan. He was trying to throw him off his game. Unfortunately, Ossomer doesn't seem to be too bright and only confused/scared himself.
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