Book 2 – Page 19

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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby HandofShadows » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:47 am

With this I am really thinking that Wanda could be associated with the "Break the World" conspiracy. Even if she does not know she is. (The Predictomancer could have fed Wanda a story). If Wanda is not associated she is working parallel to the consiracy in many ways. The concentration of power if all four Arkentools are together could be world breaking in some ways. I always thought that Wanda was not the evil beotch that many here that she was. Glad to see I am right on that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Gez » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:21 am

Nice! Wanda still see herself as a puppet of fate; and that's her reason for staying with Stanley even though she has her own Arkentool. This makes her a Toolist indeed, there's Team Tool on one side, and the non-converts on the other. No schism allowed. Interesting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Retconjurer » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:17 am

The Tools seem to be attracted to one another. When Ansom still had the Arkenpliers, both Charlie and Stanley wanted them. Badly. When Wanda attuned, each of them interpreted it differently. Stanley became distrustful and Charlie doesn't appear to have switched methods (Bait trap, take pliers). But Wanda believes in the cause of Toolism and Fate, more than either of them. Charlie wants the Arkentools for himself, and Stanley tolerates her possession of one of the tools, but Wanda isn't overly concerned with that. Wanda, as much as Ansom, is religious. This isn't a war for her, it's a crusade. Finding and attuning the fourth Arkentool, forging a toolist alliance, being a good Tool.

And to me, that makes Wanda more sympathetic. She isn't out for her own power or interested in prospering herself, she's a Tool. Much like many prophets throughout history, she understands that that means she can't just look out for herself or do what she wants. As seen here,with her service to Stanley being mandatory.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby fjolnir » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:28 am

Wanda says "they all have to be brought together" not "They have to be joined" or "Brought together on the same side" which means that the tools are not destined for a "Let's go team! form voltron!" moment but rather something more akin to Fred Saberhagen's Swords series, especially the first trilogy, in which they're repeatedly brought to bear against one another in combat.
The most likely outcome down the road is "Jillian gets a tool, final battle takes place at Charlescomm HQ" in either a 4 entity battle royal or 2 vs 2 with Wanda, Jillian, Charlie and Stanley bringing their respective Tools to war.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby theseus2x » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:41 am

HandofShadows wrote:With this I am really thinking that Wanda could be associated with the "Break the World" conspiracy. Even if she does not know she is. (The Predictomancer could have fed Wanda a story). If Wanda is not associated she is working parallel to the consiracy in many ways. The concentration of power if all four Arkentools are together could be world breaking in some ways. I always thought that Wanda was not the evil beotch that many here that she was. Glad to see I am right on that.


You're kidding, right?

Look - Yes, she loves Jillian. And MAYBE she's associated with the Conspiracy (most likely she is their unwitting pawn), but that doesn't mean she isn't selfish and ruthless to the point of evil.

Let me put it this way : She loves Jillian, yes? Would she kill Jillian to accomplish her goals? "Signs point to yes"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:26 pm

I called it. Wanda is way to committed to her mission.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby gazes_also » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:00 pm

I'm thinking about this way too much, the story has really grabbed me.
The big picture elements overshadow the immediate situation now, and it seems more likely that Jetstone will fall and signal the end of the old Royalty. I suspect that Don King may tell Jillian to stand down as she is too valuable to lose in a hopeless cause. You don't re-establish a kingdom, start production of an heir and then throw it away for nothing. Don and Jillian have a different view of what it means to rule, its about the ability to command power, loyalty and duty with purpose, not just because you inherited it, so Slately and Jetstone might serve better as martyrs that allies.

This would cause terrible internal conflict for Jillian, who hates being told what to do by Father Figures and who has never run from a fight in her life. Conflict is Story.

It could also signal the start of the War of The Tools. Charlie has done well out of preserving the staus quo on Erfworld, that status quo has gone and he has to step up to unite and lead the Anti-GK faction. Ultimately the war will come to the Magic Kingdom as casters are forced to take sides. And then there's the 'Raiders of the Lost Tool' plot to consider. "Bring the tools together" does not suggest to me uniting them, but a conflict which will unleash their power against each other and reshape Erf.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby robak » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:10 pm

Remember Stanleys little speech about good and evil?
There is no "good" and "evil" side [...] There is "Holy" and "Unholy".
I always thought this was one of the most important statements Stanley made. For all his pettiness and stupidity, he really is on a mission from Elvis.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Menas » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:28 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Menas wrote:Stanley is already willingly on her side. There's no reason to do anything to him - he's already a tool wielder, and he's already on her side. And I don't believe she can harm him in any way as long as he's her overlord. Leaving the side of a tool that's already on her side would go against her purpose.


True, but she apparently would like to be with Jillian, but she chooses to stay with the accumulation of attuned Arkentools, and thus Stanley. She could join Jillian, go and take Stanley's tool, eventually take Charlie's tool and she would still be bringing them together, they just might not be attuned anymore.


That was my point. She 'could' join Jillian and forcibly take the tool from Stanley if all she cared about was getting the tools together. But she just made it clear she's not willing to do that. Which is why I believe she's not going to voluntarily leave the side of an attuned tool-wielder.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby theseus2x » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:24 pm

I still think Jillian has a trump card, most likely involving Charlie.

Only problem : Wanda's Archons SHOULD be able to see Charlie's Archons veiled.

Huh.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby robak » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:20 pm

How about the trump card is "Charlie got 200 Archons and 3000 marbits just outside GK, now back off or you're history once it's Charlie's turn". No need for veiled archons in Spacerock
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:42 pm

robak wrote:How about the trump card is "Charlie got 200 Archons and 3000 marbits just outside GK, now back off or you're history once it's Charlie's turn". No need for veiled archons in Spacerock

Only Problem: Stanely uses the decyrpted archons to patrol GK territory... There's no way charlie could get that many units near the GK capitol without being spotted
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby robak » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:00 pm

They can be quite far away and still be within striking distance. I think they have a lot of move. The other factor are the missing gobwins and the white giants (tunnel units). I think Charlie is planning to hit GK. I mean, you hit your opponent where he's weak, not where he's super-strong.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Sinrus » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:04 pm

[sarcasm]Because GK is soooo weak.[/sarcasm] You seem to forget that Stanley has been taming 2 or 3 dwagons per turn, plus all the units that they've popped.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:27 pm

robak wrote:They can be quite far away and still be within striking distance. I think they have a lot of move. The other factor are the missing gobwins and the white giants (tunnel units). I think Charlie is planning to hit GK. I mean, you hit your opponent where he's weak, not where he's super-strong.

First off, archons have large move... marbits and the rest do not...
Second of all, Charlie was having trouble just sending scouts through GK terriroty... fact of the matter is that GK has acquired many more cities and now covers a fairly large amount of space; meaning there's a good chance of being spotted even when they far from the capitol
Third, as i have said like twice before when addressing such theories... Charlie has NO intel on GK's units or plans of attack... he has no idea how many dwagons, and anti air units Stanely has and had no idea that the dwagons would be used in the attack on Jestone as opposed to a ground seige assault...

forth... now this is just speculation on my part, but just because charlie has 600 archons does not necessarily mean he has hundreds at his disposal... he is unlikely to lower the guard at charlescomm, and many of the archons are probably being kept busy with merc work... since Charlie is not making any money from those sides near GK, he must rely on farther away sides... with only one city he has no way of really paying upkeep on his own and thus relies on merc work to maintain upkeep... the longer his archons are not working the harder it becomes to maintain their upkeep... so i have doubts that charlie would be able to send 200 archons on a personal vendetta; he doesn't even know if GK has worth while treasury to sake and help make up for the lost funds


your right about one thing, it's better to strike when the enemy is weak... however once wanda is gone, the RCCII will start chipping away at GK's forces... in a few hundred turns, we will be back where book 1 started; with GK on the verge of collapse and easy pickings for those like charlie...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby joosy » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:33 pm

I also wonder if Jillian's enthusiasm for Wanda will change if she were to ever find out Wanda betrayed FAQ to Stanley in the first place.

Jillians hatred for Stanley stems from his initial destruction of Faq. If it is revealed that Wanda should be the focus of that anger that could be a game changer or at least serve for a few pages of ennui.
Last edited by joosy on Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:04 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
robak wrote:They can be quite far away and still be within striking distance. I think they have a lot of move. The other factor are the missing gobwins and the white giants (tunnel units). I think Charlie is planning to hit GK. I mean, you hit your opponent where he's weak, not where he's super-strong.


Just because GK has a massive army in the field doesn't mean GK itself is weak. Its still one of the most defensible positions in the world and you better believe Stanley is keeping a sizable force on hand to defend it. Dwagons, Hobgobwins, Twolls, Golems, and the ultimate tunnel force multiplier Sizemore are just some what any attack on GK can expect, to say nothing of more decrypted.

MonteCristo wrote:your right about one thing, it's better to strike when the enemy is weak... however once wanda is gone, the RCCII will start chipping away at GK's forces... in a few hundred turns, we will be back where book 1 started; with GK on the verge of collapse and easy pickings for those like charlie...


I agree with much of what you say, Monty, but not necessarily this. The RCC2 might think Wanda is GK's current engine of power and without her Stanley resorts to old habits and we'd soon be back to Book 1. However, Charlie knows Parson is on GK's side and can be as big a game changer (to use a cliche) as Wanda and her decrypted. I'm not saying his plan isn't to deal with Wanda (the immediate threat) now and worry about Parson later, just that GK is not going to fall easy. Perhaps thats why he's so eager to get on the good graces of the RCC2, because defeating GK is going to need every available resource. That, and he could get paid to take on GK.
"Act, and God will Act." - Joan of Arc

"Those who plot the destruction of others often perish in the attempt." - Thomas Moore
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby gameboy1234 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:26 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
ftl wrote:I think we agree on where it came from; it was Parson pushing people's buttons (first Stanley's, then Ansom's) because he realized that it meant something to them, and them taking his words completely dead serious and keeping it as a full-blow ideology. Do we agree? I can't tell what you're saying.


I think there were multiple steps on to the development of Toolism. First Stanley claimed his new titanic mandate, after he became overlord. But not as some kind of new religion, but as a personal statement to fight his own inferiority complex. That provoked the kings and queens of the RCC to declare their war a crusade to disprove his mandate. When Parson made his "tool" comment ... he declared that "royalty is obsolete", he defined that destiny, namely to put an end to the dominance of royalty. When Ansom was decrypted, he adopted that idea and filled it life..



This is pretty close to what I think. Two things:

1. I can't help think that Parson's statements to Ansom were some how fated. That it will happen later that what Parson did was some how predicted to start Toolism as we know it.

2. I don't think Stanley had any Toolism to start with. Remember him using the Hammer to crack walnuts? I don't think he's really into Toolism all that much. It was likely Wanda who came up with the idea that Stanley was "special," that he should stand up to the other powers and take what was rightfully "his," namely the Arkentools.


So it starts with Wanda, and then before that it starts with the prediction. I don't know about a conspiracy of casters, I think they were honest Predictions. But I do wonder what's up, and if Wanda's comment "[This world] wised for you" to Parson isn't literally true. Some thing is going on, but I don't think the driving force is the casters or anyone in the Magic Kingdom.
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I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Menas » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:16 pm

theseus2x wrote:I still think Jillian has a trump card, most likely involving Charlie.

Only problem : Wanda's Archons SHOULD be able to see Charlie's Archons veiled.

Huh.


This has been discussed in previous threads. Most people expect that Wanda's Archons would only see enemy veiled Archons if they're in the same battle space. There's no way to be sure that Wanda's forces and Jillian's forces are in the same battle space yet.

Also, if Charlie has Archons in the battle space they could be veiled AND hidden. For all we know they're stowed away inside the mega-gwiffon-whatchamawhozit-thingies. If that's the case it wouldn't matter if there are people there who can see through veils or not, as they wouldn't be able to see them in the first place.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby DoctorJest » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:27 pm

robak wrote:How about the trump card is "Charlie got 200 Archons and 3000 marbits just outside GK, now back off or you're history once it's Charlie's turn". No need for veiled archons in Spacerock


Because trying to conquer GK with overwhelming force worked so well the last time someone tried it.
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