Book 2 – Page 19

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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby 1Luv » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:33 pm

Menas wrote:
theseus2x wrote:I still think Jillian has a trump card, most likely involving Charlie.

Only problem : Wanda's Archons SHOULD be able to see Charlie's Archons veiled.

Huh.


This has been discussed in previous threads. Most people expect that Wanda's Archons would only see enemy veiled Archons if they're in the same battle space. There's no way to be sure that Wanda's forces and Jillian's forces are in the same battle space yet.

Also, if Charlie has Archons in the battle space they could be veiled AND hidden. For all we know they're stowed away inside the mega-gwiffon-whatchamawhozit-thingies. If that's the case it wouldn't matter if there are people there who can see through veils or not, as they wouldn't be able to see them in the first place.


I think that if Wanda had entered Jetstone's occupied Hex they would have started a fight.

'Parley' probably allows the leaders to just slightly cross the edges of a Hex boundary to talk, which is why Wanda and Jillian can circle eachother without hitting the magical arrow-stopping boundaries.

So Jill COULD have veiled archons in Spacerock. I don't think she has many though, and she just has lots of high level fighters from solidifying FAQ. not to mention how HUGE a level -10- ROYAL probably boosts attacks:D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby ftl » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:37 pm

Menas wrote:This has been discussed in previous threads. Most people expect that Wanda's Archons would only see enemy veiled Archons if they're in the same battle space. There's no way to be sure that Wanda's forces and Jillian's forces are in the same battle space yet.


If Charlie has his own forces somewhere in the battlespace, separate from Jillian, everyone would know because then he'd get a turn. If they are included in Jillians forces and not commanded by Charlie, then they wouldn't get a separate turn, and even if they're in the same battlespace wouldn't necessarily be detected. All those forces have to be in the same battlespace; if they're far enough that they're not in the battlespace, they're not relevant anyway.

If they're in the same HEX, not just the same battlespace, then Wanda's Archons would be able to see them. (Right now, Wanda and Jillian are even in the same hex, not just the same battlespace.)

Also, if Charlie has Archons in the battle space they could be veiled AND hidden. For all we know they're stowed away inside the mega-gwiffon-whatchamawhozit-thingies. If that's the case it wouldn't matter if there are people there who can see through veils or not, as they wouldn't be able to see them in the first place.


Megalogwiffs. But yes, that might be reasonable - if the megalogwiffs can absorb units and hide them, not magically by a veil but physically, by enveloping them.

I think that if Wanda had entered Jetstone's occupied Hex they would have started a fight.


Why? Jillian and Wanda wouldn't fight without talking first, which is what they're doing.

'Parley' probably allows the leaders to just slightly cross the edges of a Hex boundary to talk, which is why Wanda and Jillian can circle eachother without hitting the magical arrow-stopping boundaries.


That would be against what we know of erfworld physics. Hex boundaries are pretty strict in all respects, they're not bendable.

It's far more likely that "parley" is just an agreement to talk. Parley at a hex boundary is fairly safe for both sides, but we've also seen parleys not at hex boundaries - Ansom calling for Hamster's surrender, Jillian and Duncan Scone back when Duncan was in Jitterati. And now Wanda and Jillian - they're circling each other, so they can't be at a hex boundary, or one of them wouldn't have the move to cross it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby DoctorJest » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:39 pm

1Luv wrote:'Parley' probably allows the leaders to just slightly cross the edges of a Hex boundary to talk, which is why Wanda and Jillian can circle eachother without hitting the magical arrow-stopping boundaries.


That would violate the rules of how Erfworld works. Hex boundaries aren't flexible things, they exist as real physical boundaries. Deciding to parley doesn't give you move on someone else's turn nor free move on your turn to "slightly" cross a hex. There is no "slightly" crossing a hex. You're in that hex or you're not.

Erfworld is modeled after turn based strategy games. Any speculation on the "rules" of the world need to be internally consistent, like those of a game. It's not internally consistent to have a hex border become porous and fuzzy. It is like suggesting in our world that calling parley lets people walk through walls. It just simply doesn't make sense.

If they are in fact circling each other, they're in the same hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Sinrus » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:49 pm

'Parley' probably allows the leaders to just slightly cross the edges of a Hex boundary to talk, which is why Wanda and Jillian can circle eachother without hitting the magical arrow-stopping boundaries.


That would be against what we know of erfworld physics. Hex boundaries are pretty strict in all respects, they're not bendable.

It's far more likely that "parley" is just an agreement to talk. Parley at a hex boundary is fairly safe for both sides, but we've also seen parleys not at hex boundaries - Ansom calling for Hamster's surrender, Jillian and Duncan Scone back when Duncan was in Jitterati. And now Wanda and Jillian - they're circling each other, so they can't be at a hex boundary, or one of them wouldn't have the move to cross it.


I thought it was fairly obvious? The hex boundary is the walls of Spacerock. Wanda and her stack are past there, but the archons and the rest of the dwagons are hanging back. True Jillian and Wanda are in the same hex, but they're commanders so they don't have to auto-attack each other. Thus, Charlie's archons could still be veiled since there are no other archons in the hex with them. As for your examples (Jillian+Duncan and Ansom+Bogroll), those were parleys at zone boundaries namely airspace to tower.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Black » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:50 pm

DoctorJest wrote:
1Luv wrote:'Parley' probably allows the leaders to just slightly cross the edges of a Hex boundary to talk, which is why Wanda and Jillian can circle eachother without hitting the magical arrow-stopping boundaries.


That would violate the rules of how Erfworld works. Hex boundaries aren't flexible things, they exist as real physical boundaries. Deciding to parley doesn't give you move on someone else's turn nor free move on your turn to "slightly" cross a hex. There is no "slightly" crossing a hex. You're in that hex or you're not.

Erfworld is modeled after turn based strategy games. Any speculation on the "rules" of the world need to be internally consistent, like those of a game. It's not internally consistent to have a hex border become porous and fuzzy. It is like suggesting in our world that calling parley lets people walk through walls. It just simply doesn't make sense.

If they are in fact circling each other, they're in the same hex.


Except this doesn't make the rules inconsistent. Inconsistency would be deducing two different rules for the same situation. This is an exception to a rule. You cannot cross hex boundaries unless you are parleying. No inconsistency, just a special case. So what's your beef?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby 1Luv » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:24 pm

Black wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:
1Luv wrote:'Parley' probably allows the leaders to just slightly cross the edges of a Hex boundary to talk, which is why Wanda and Jillian can circle eachother without hitting the magical arrow-stopping boundaries.


That would violate the rules of how Erfworld works. Hex boundaries aren't flexible things, they exist as real physical boundaries. Deciding to parley doesn't give you move on someone else's turn nor free move on your turn to "slightly" cross a hex. There is no "slightly" crossing a hex. You're in that hex or you're not.

Erfworld is modeled after turn based strategy games. Any speculation on the "rules" of the world need to be internally consistent, like those of a game. It's not internally consistent to have a hex border become porous and fuzzy. It is like suggesting in our world that calling parley lets people walk through walls. It just simply doesn't make sense.

If they are in fact circling each other, they're in the same hex.


Except this doesn't make the rules inconsistent. Inconsistency would be deducing two different rules for the same situation. This is an exception to a rule. You cannot cross hex boundaries unless you are parleying. No inconsistency, just a special case. So what's your beef?



I also didn't mean it to say that if you cross the hex boundary for Parley your side gets to attack. It's simply a means to talk to one another without engaging in an attack move.

Also, The Bogroll + ansom example brought up doesn't work as Ansom was ALREADY attacking GK's garrison. It was still ansom's turn, Hamster just said he was going to surrender WHILE fighting in the hex, and ansom decided to go and accept(which would be probably like Parson deciding to turn,or allow stanley to capture him for Charlie)
Last edited by 1Luv on Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby 1Luv » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:27 pm

DoctorJest wrote:
1Luv wrote:'Parley' probably allows the leaders to just slightly cross the edges of a Hex boundary to talk, which is why Wanda and Jillian can circle eachother without hitting the magical arrow-stopping boundaries.


That would violate the rules of how Erfworld works. Hex boundaries aren't flexible things, they exist as real physical boundaries. Deciding to parley doesn't give you move on someone else's turn nor free move on your turn to "slightly" cross a hex. There is no "slightly" crossing a hex. You're in that hex or you're not.

Erfworld is modeled after turn based strategy games. Any speculation on the "rules" of the world need to be internally consistent, like those of a game. It's not internally consistent to have a hex border become porous and fuzzy. It is like suggesting in our world that calling parley lets people walk through walls. It just simply doesn't make sense.

If they are in fact circling each other, they're in the same hex.


I wouldn't say it's a free 'move' Move implies that you move into their hex and occupy it permanently. I'm saying possibly the Rules that govern Erfworld allow leaders to meet at the Hex boundary,and then has a few feet of give back and forth during Parley to allow them room to discuss possible turning/surrenders/etc. They're NOT walking through walls because after the parley Wanda and Jillian would have to return to their separate camps,and no 'move' has actually happened(Which is why below you see all the Megalogwiffs and Dwagons staring at eachother across what?20 feet of open space?


EDIT: buying a new keyboard and then trying to type on it int he first twenty minutes causes large masses of typoes<.<))
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby ftl » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:41 pm

1Luv wrote:I wouldn't say it's a free 'move' Move implies that you move into their hex and occupy it permanently.


Where are you getting that implication? From everything we've seen, "Move" is used when "crossing the hex boundary." No checks for whether you intend to stay there or not, or what you intend to do there.

I'm saying possibly the Rules that govern Erfworld allow leaders to meet at the Hex boundary,and then has a few feet of give back and forth during Parley to allow them room to discuss possible turning/surrenders/etc.


Anything's possible. It is, of course, possible that erfworld has all sorts of random rules. But "it's possible" doesn't constitute evidence for it.

They're NOT walking through walls because after the parley Wanda and Jillian would have to return to their separate camps,


Why would they have to do that? We've never seen a rule where a character is forced to undo something they've done, I think.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby 1Luv » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:50 pm

Where are you getting that implication? From everything we've seen, "Move" is used when "crossing the hex boundary." No checks for whether you intend to stay there or not, or what you intend to do there.

I'm not saying they are moving into another hex. Perhaps the hex moves slightly to make a smaller hex?Or maybe it's just artistic license letting them circle eachother?(plotomancy?)

Anything's possible. It is, of course, possible that erfworld has all sorts of random rules. But "it's possible" doesn't constitute evidence for it.

I'm not saying there's evidence for it..this is simply supposition on my part, not an entrenched idea of what's happening...<.<

Why would they have to do that? We've never seen a rule where a character is forced to undo something they've done, I think.

They aren't technically forced to undo something. They're just attempting the parley. The same excuse you used for Hex boundaries applies. It's just something 'they wouldn't be able to do'. Like how Stanley made it impossible for Parson to talk until someone told him he could...

Edit: Maybe the physics of Erfworld allow Jillian and Wanda to circle eachother, but -not actually leave their respective Hex-
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby DoctorJest » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:15 pm

1Luv wrote:I wouldn't say it's a free 'move' Move implies that you move into their hex and occupy it permanently. I'm saying possibly the Rules that govern Erfworld allow leaders to meet at the Hex boundary,and then has a few feet of give back and forth during Parley to allow them room to discuss possible turning/surrenders/etc. They're NOT walking through walls because after the parley Wanda and Jillian would have to return to their separate camps,and no 'move' has actually happened(Which is why below you see all the Megalogwiffs and Dwagons staring at eachother across what?20 feet of open space?


Except that everything we've learned about Erfworld physics is directly contradicted by this. There is absolutely no reason to presuppose that rules are fluid in this fashion, that hex boundaries are flexible "within a few feet" (how many? How does it know?) ever, or that the rules change because two sides are talking instead of fighting. That's simply unfounded.

What happens when Parley ends, if they've circled into each other's hexes? Are they forcibly shoved back? Do they stay in their "new hex" now that the boundary has stopped conveniently accomodating their whim? This supposition raises more questions than it answers.

Occam's Razor. They're either in the same hex or we're misinterpreting the art.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby DoctorJest » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:18 pm

1Luv wrote:Edit: Maybe the physics of Erfworld allow Jillian and Wanda to circle eachother, but -not actually leave their respective Hex-


We already know from the Summer Updates that hex boundaries are solid, not porous, and do not overlap. They're a hard, invisible (well to us and parson) barrier than you can only cross if:

1.) It's your turn
2.) you have move enough left to move into that type of hex.

Your idea that they're in Schrodinger's Hex that's in every possible state while Parley is going on just simply isn't supportable by what we know of Erfworld's rules. In fact, it directly contradicts what we do know about Erfworld's rules. So therefore it's inconsistent.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby name lips » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:26 pm

I wonder if there's tunnel access to Spacerock... I'm just wondering, with all those missing Gobwins, maybe they're somehow involved?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby 1Luv » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:33 pm

DoctorJest wrote:
1Luv wrote:Edit: Maybe the physics of Erfworld allow Jillian and Wanda to circle eachother, but -not actually leave their respective Hex-


We already know from the Summer Updates that hex boundaries are solid, not porous, and do not overlap. They're a hard, invisible (well to us and parson) barrier than you can only cross if:

1.) It's your turn
2.) you have move enough left to move into that type of hex.

Your idea that they're in Schrodinger's Hex that's in every possible state while Parley is going on just simply isn't supportable by what we know of Erfworld's rules. In fact, it directly contradicts what we do know about Erfworld's rules. So therefore it's inconsistent.

Again these are all ideas not things I'm stating as evidence. I'd think that if Wanda had entered a hex inhabited by The RCII the RCII would start defending(by well, attacking wanda).

But then again I'm not sure if it's Wandas turn and she hasn't decided to stop moving yet, or if her move just brought her into Jillian's hex?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby 1Luv » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:34 pm

name lips wrote:I wonder if there's tunnel access to Spacerock... I'm just wondering, with all those missing Gobwins, maybe they're somehow involved?

Maybe a Dungeon that a mining race could hide in/break in to?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby ftl » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:38 pm

1Luv wrote:Again these are all ideas not things I'm stating as evidence.


So, do you have ANY evidence?

We have a consistent story. It's GK's turn, Wanda has flown into Spacerock airspace, and is now parleying with Jillian there, because neither one of them wants to strike before talking. Doesn't require any fluid hex boundaries, no new rules, fits perfectly with Wanda and Jillian's relationship.

And you're proposing weird new rules and fluid hex boundaries? For what reason?

I'd think that if Wanda had entered a hex inhabited by The RCII the RCII would start defending(by well, attacking wanda).


Um, Jillian would definitely want to talk to Wanda first before fighting. Which is what's happening.

But then again I'm not sure if it's Wandas turn and she hasn't decided to stop moving yet, or if her move just brought her into Jillian's hex?


It is Wanda's turn. We know this, it's not speculation, it's her turn because all that's been going on in the start of this comic has been GK's turn, from the unveiling to the start of this fight.

Also, whether or not she has "decided to stop moving yet" doesn't matter, you can move and then do things and then keep moving, as long as you have Move left.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby gameboy1234 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:54 pm

ftl wrote:
Menas wrote:Also, if Charlie has Archons in the battle space they could be veiled AND hidden. For all we know they're stowed away inside the mega-gwiffon-whatchamawhozit-thingies. If that's the case it wouldn't matter if there are people there who can see through veils or not, as they wouldn't be able to see them in the first place.


Megalogwiffs. But yes, that might be reasonable - if the megalogwiffs can absorb units and hide them, not magically by a veil but physically, by enveloping them.




So, kind of a marshmallow-peep flavored Trojan horse then?
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby MonteCristo » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:14 am

1Luv wrote:I also didn't mean it to say that if you cross the hex boundary for Parley your side gets to attack. It's simply a means to talk to one another without engaging in an attack move.

Also, The Bogroll + ansom example brought up doesn't work as Ansom was ALREADY attacking GK's garrison. It was still ansom's turn, Hamster just said he was going to surrender WHILE fighting in the hex, and ansom decided to go and accept(which would be probably like Parson deciding to turn,or allow stanley to capture him for Charlie)

Look back to the summer update with Queen bea; her chief warlord went over to talk to princess cruz but used it as a chance to sneak attack and croak her

Parley is a matter of choice... each side CHOOSES not to attack so they can talk and come to peaceful terms... either side is capable of launching an attack
This is why Parley's are usually done near hex borders... the attacking side can enter the hex to discuss terms, but if the defending side tries to attack them then the attackers can quickly retreat... and visa versa, if the attackers tried to use the parley to sneak attack the defenders, the defenders would be able to come down hard on them...

nothing is stopping Jillian or wanda from attacking except for her own choice

1Luv wrote:Again these are all ideas not things I'm stating as evidence. I'd think that if Wanda had entered a hex inhabited by The RCII the RCII would start defending(by well, attacking wanda).

No one attacked wanda's forces because there wasn't any forces to attack wanda's forces... as it was said in ossomer's text update, all of the ground forces including the archers fell back to the garrison. there was nobody on the walls. Jillian IS the first line of defense and she chose not to attack
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby splintermute » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:07 am

I don't think they are circling. I think that ever since page 17, panel 2, where they were getting into position, they have been hovering in a pretty stable position next to each other, with Wanda on the dwagon army side, and Jillian on the gwiffon army side, and their mounts either pressed against each other, or pressed against a paper-thin hex barrier, with their faces in each other's naughty bits in a way that's clearly making them both uncomfortable.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby robak » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:48 am

DoctorJest wrote:
robak wrote:How about the trump card is "Charlie got 200 Archons and 3000 marbits just outside GK, now back off or you're history once it's Charlie's turn". No need for veiled archons in Spacerock


Because trying to conquer GK with overwhelming force worked so well the last time someone tried it.

Hm, you're probably right about that. I still have the feeling that something's about to happen back at the base.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby silverdevilboy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:49 am

I'm going back to the arkenhat theory. I still think wanda will turn.
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