Book 2 – Page 19

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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby bonnywench » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:53 pm

Couldn't resist the urge to spec. :) Finally had to delurk to do it.

An interesting possibility that occurs to me here (and forgive me if someone has suggested it already) is the possibility that the "royalty is obsolete, only attunement to the arkentools matters" idea comes originally not from Stanley, but from Wanda. Early on she suggests to Parson that the best way to lead Stanley is to let him think that he came up with things. It seems entirely possible that in joining Stanley, Wanda actually supplied him with *her* philosophy, not the other way around. This would certainly fit better with the intellectual capabilities of each. His Toolship doesn't really strike me as the philosopher-king type.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby regisminae » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:21 am

So, here's what I'm wondering after this strip:

The Duncan cameo in panel six makes me wonder whether magic items always recolor to match their holder's new side's livery when their holder turns.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby SteveMB » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:49 am

Joe Falco wrote:
Tiger wrote:Can I just say that I LOVE Jillian's expressions in this comic?


Yes, you may say so. I will say it as well for both her and Wanda.


Indeed.
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby atteSmythe » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:20 am

Interesting bit about the Arkentools being destined to be joined to one side. (At least, Wanda's belief in that destiny)

It doesn't seem very likely, but one scenario that struck me as a pretty tantalizing opportunity is Charlie finding whoever controls the fourth Tool and, one way or the other, bringing that person to his side.

Sure, the Arkentools should be brought together...but now it's 2 vs. 2 - whose side?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby mastigo » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:23 am

huh, I guess we all misunderstood what turnamancers do: they don't manipulate turns, they manipulate units turning sides
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby atteSmythe » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:29 am

mastigo wrote:huh, I guess we all misunderstood what turnamancers do: they don't manipulate turns, they manipulate units turning sides

I don't think one necessarily excludes the other. But we had evidence of this use of Turnamancers when Duncan was turned.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Joe Falco » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:57 am

bonnywench wrote:An interesting possibility that occurs to me here (and forgive me if someone has suggested it already) is the possibility that the "royalty is obsolete, only attunement to the arkentools matters" idea comes originally not from Stanley, but from Wanda.


Sure. I'm hoping in the near future there will be a comic or text post that will show Wanda, during her days at Faq, debating with King Banhammer and other esteemed individuals during their usual philosophical discussions. I'm thinking she already came to her current line of thought soon after the Predictamancer's fortune-telling. It would be interesting to read Wanda suggesting hypothetical scenarios in which "the Will of the Titans" is made manifest by those who are attuned to the Tools right in front of the oblivious Banhammer just as she is communicating to Stanley behind Banhammer's back. At least, that's how I imagine it in my head.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:00 am

Best I can tell, Jillian was being serious with her offer. She just moved into villain territory in my mind (also occupied by Charlie and Stanley), though perhaps she hadn't thought this one entirely through (such as how she's going to pay upkeep without Charlie and the Don's support, or how to defend FAQ when GK is much closer). Sure, she's conflicted about Wanda, but can she truly not see how evilWanda's become that she'd throw away everything (including a new boyfriend) for her?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby elmagnifico » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:22 am

Best I can tell, Jillian was being serious with her offer. She just moved into villain territory in my mind (also occupied by Charlie and Stanley), though perhaps she hadn't thought this one entirely through (such as how she's going to pay upkeep without Charlie and the Don's support, or how to defend FAQ when GK is much closer). Sure, she's conflicted about Wanda, but can she truly not see how evilWanda's become that she'd throw away everything (including a new boyfriend) for her?


How can she see anything? this is the first time she's seen Wanda since the tower at GK. Aside from first-hand accounts(notoriously unreliable), she's had no data to tell her what Wanda's path has been since then.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:33 am

Awww, Jillian look's so enthusiastic in panel 2 (love that one) and then Wanda goes and spoils it.

And well now, I didn't know Wanda bought into Toolism like that, I thought it was more "I'll get a tool and conquer the world" not so much "Oh, the tools have to be united and kept together". That always seemed a Stanley thing. Unless Wanda is the architect of that belief... also so Wanda is putting, what, Fate, ahead of what she wants?

And the way she says it - does the fact she has a tool make her equal to Stanley? She is viewing it from her loyalty to him (I, with a tool, have to stay loyal to Stanley with his tool), and not his loyalty to her...

And I guess Mystery Caster has been revealed now as Turnamancer Vanna... unless it is a misdirection. ;)

So I guess the plan is back on Jillian? Don't disappoint Charlie and Don!

And Duncan looking up... hmmm, I wonder if that is a response to Jillian's shout, or tying in to his Text Update. Is this the scene that has the Titan's laughing?

MonteCristo wrote:He's not going out on a limb for Jillian... Saving JETSTONE is beneficial to him


I wondered on the subject a while ago - are Jillian and Charlie primarily there to save Spacerock/Jetstone, or are they primarily there to stop GK? One could lead to the other, but both don't have to be achieved. I think it is more stopping GK then saving Jetstone - I imagine Charlie would accept its loss, though he wouldn't be upset if it was saved.

They probably won't... one thing Charlie and Jillian has been careful about is keeping Charlie's involvement a secret... If charlie were to call up Parson and ask for any calculations that might even be remotely related to the upcoming fight, then parson and GK would KNOW that Charlie was up to something


Especially since Charlie has gone to so much trouble to make Parson believe he has no allies in the RCCII and he is out of the fight.

elmagnifico wrote:So, with Wanda unturnable, have Vanna concentrate on Ossomer? If she can turn units from afar, perhaps a blast of switchy-sidey-goodness will result in Wanda getting attacked from behind?


I think it is possible she is there for another reason, going back to Jillian and Charlie's actual plan. Jillian tells Wanda her backers would want her head for what she is doing (asking Wanda to join her), so presumably Charlie and her plan (though it might always have been Jillian's) wasn't to turn Wanda with Vanna to begin with.

Unless this is all misdirection, and Jillian and Charlie always planned for this conversation to happen. I guess the question is, if that is the case, whether they thought Wanda would refuse or not. And if they thought she might refuse what has been achieved...
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:45 am

attesmyth wrote:Interesting bit about the Arkentools being destined to be joined to one side. (At least, Wanda's belief in that destiny)

Ya all in all, when it comes to the arkentools, i go with Charlie's view on things... that the attuned really don't know what they are doing and are just making up their own purposes...
Stanely and Wanda feel that attuning is a higher calling, that they are meant to lead and feel that the arkentools are meant to be gathered together to fulfill whatever purpose.
Charlie does not share their drive, and thus stands in contrast to their plan; afterall if the tools really are the will of the titans then why did the dish attune to one who does not believe in toolism?

mastigo wrote:huh, I guess we all misunderstood what turnamancers do: they don't manipulate turns, they manipulate units turning sides

They do both in a sense...
Cause we also know that Vanna was using her magic to manipulate how many TURNs it took units to pop. So oddly enough, turnamancers apply to both definitions of turn
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:13 am

Lord Kasavin wrote:Best I can tell, Jillian was being serious with her offer. She just moved into villain territory in my mind (also occupied by Charlie and Stanley), though perhaps she hadn't thought this one entirely through (such as how she's going to pay upkeep without Charlie and the Don's support, or how to defend FAQ when GK is much closer). Sure, she's conflicted about Wanda, but can she truly not see how evilWanda's become that she'd throw away everything (including a new boyfriend) for her?


Why Villain territory? Wanda/the pliers don't have to act like, be used like, they have been - Jillian might be blaming all this on Stanley, and once Wanda is back in Faq things can get better.

Of course if so it is naivety, but not evil on Jillian's part. And I think she had thought it through a bit - the "with you and me and Jack... and Ansom? We can stand up to 'em" - "'em" presumably being backers like Stanley, Don and Charlie who'd want revenge if Jillian and Wanda left them.

Of course it is possible something else is going on as well - Jillian might has said to Charlie she would have to be given the chance to turn Wanda if she was to help him. Telling Wanda they could then still take Spacerock might have just been to lull her. Or it might still be a trap. I'll wait to see if Jillian really has just tried to betray Don and Charlie.

build6 wrote:hrm, I wonder if Jillian will be smart enough to point that out - that there's at least one attuned arkentool out there that's NOT on the Stanley-Wanda axis. I wonder what response Wanda would have to that...


That would be good. And we have no way of knowing if anyone else would be able to attune to the dish - taking it from Charlie would mean they'd have another arkentool, but not another attuned arkentool. If just having the tool is all that matters then in that case she could croak Stanley, take his tool, and still be doing what the Titan's want (in her eyes - gathering the tools).

And Charlie has had his dish for a lot longer then Stanley has had his hammer.

hrm, but if it's ok to kill a Charlie who is Tool-attuned, then why not kill Stanley? (or... both?)


Exactly.

Menas wrote:Stanley is already willingly on her side. There's no reason to do anything to him - he's already a tool wielder, and he's already on her side. And I don't believe she can harm him in any way as long as he's her overlord. Leaving the side of a tool that's already on her side would go against her purpose.


True, but she apparently would like to be with Jillian, but she chooses to stay with the accumulation of attuned Arkentools, and thus Stanley. She could join Jillian, go and take Stanley's tool, eventually take Charlie's tool and she would still be bringing them together, they just might not be attuned anymore.

I guess it depends whether she also really buys into thinking a person attuning to a tool is the Titans will, because if so Charlie is a tricky part of the whole "the fate of the tools is to be found and brought together" because it is hard to imagine the Arkendish joining GK while Charlie has anything to say about it (unless the theory about Charlie being the Arkendish is correct...).

And we also know Stanley and Parson are a bit uneasy with Wanda - what happens if Stanley starts interfering with what Wanda believes she needs to do to realize the fate of the arkentools?
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:37 am

MonteCristo wrote:
attesmyth wrote:Interesting bit about the Arkentools being destined to be joined to one side. (At least, Wanda's belief in that destiny)

Ya all in all, when it comes to the arkentools, i go with Charlie's view on things... that the attuned really don't know what they are doing and are just making up their own purposes...
Stanely and Wanda feel that attuning is a higher calling, that they are meant to lead and feel that the arkentools are meant to be gathered together to fulfill whatever purpose.
Charlie does not share their drive, and thus stands in contrast to their plan; afterall if the tools really are the will of the titans then why did the dish attune to one who does not believe in toolism?


I agree with that.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby ftl » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:49 am

bonnywench wrote:Couldn't resist the urge to spec. :) Finally had to delurk to do it.

An interesting possibility that occurs to me here (and forgive me if someone has suggested it already) is the possibility that the "royalty is obsolete, only attunement to the arkentools matters" idea comes originally not from Stanley, but from Wanda. Early on she suggests to Parson that the best way to lead Stanley is to let him think that he came up with things. It seems entirely possible that in joining Stanley, Wanda actually supplied him with *her* philosophy, not the other way around. This would certainly fit better with the intellectual capabilities of each. His Toolship doesn't really strike me as the philosopher-king type.


The "Royalty is obsolete" comes from Parson, I think. He was trash-talking Ansom, pushing his buttons. Then when Ansom was converted to Parson's side, he took that seriously. And so Toolism was started.

Or at least that's how I understood it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Zeku » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:59 am

Well, you could phrase it a lot of ways.

Technically, Toolism started with Parson calling Stanley a tool, which immediately brightened his day. Stanley was interested in the tools for some reason, probably from having acquired one. When he was called a tool, some latent idea sort of snapped into place in his mind. It didn't necessarily have a specific origin, beyond avarice. Parson is also the originator of the tool comment at the Ansom encounter.

So, we can see Toolism as being a reflection of the invader's (Parson) tendency to trust power, more than any other force. Why Wanda is involved in it all is still mysterious, but that could be almost entirely incidental, from a world-level view. She is clever, but not wise by any stretch, and that's become even more obvious recently.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby ftl » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:20 am

Zeku wrote:So, we can see Toolism as being a reflection of the invader's (Parson) tendency to trust power, more than any other force.


I don't get what you mean by Parson's "tendency to trust power."

I think we agree on where it came from; it was Parson pushing people's buttons (first Stanley's, then Ansom's) because he realized that it meant something to them, and them taking his words completely dead serious and keeping it as a full-blow ideology. Do we agree? I can't tell what you're saying.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby zilfallon » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:54 am

at any rate, jillian's expression at panel 4 is TOO CUTEEE :D
There is a possibility that Jillian will get mad and refuse retreating the battlespace. If this happens, she and her little army will be croaked and de-crypted, so jillian and wanda will be together, in a different manner though...
And i think this will be the best for GK's sake, because it means another high level warlord.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Azukar » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:30 am

You know, for someone who claims to know Jillian's carrots and sticks so intimately, Wanda is really blowing chunks at achieving her goals right now.

Of course, none of the above characters' motives are particularly transparent right now, so who knows how many levels of Xanatos Gambits are in play.

On the other other hand, I do think Wanda's just letting love get in the way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:22 am

Valatros wrote:Wanda DOES want to reach an "end game" type scenario and/or knows it's coming and is preparing, and is uniting all the arkentools for the purpose of well, "winning" this event, as suggested earlier. The Predictomancer that gave her her knowledge of fate currently resides in the Magic Kingdom and is primarily responsible for the creation of the Summon Ultimate Warlord spell, and is the attuned wielder (secretly?) of the fourth (or, if it's a REALLY good secret, 5th+) Arkentool, giving her undeniably accurate predicting power.


Not entirely implausible.

Predictamancy is weird business. In Greek legend, if the King is told by the Oracle that his wife will bear a child and that child will kill him, well the King will start taking measures. They prove effective only to develop the plot, not forestall fate, but they are something.

The Faq prediction obviously has long-reaching consequences for Erfworld, so it should be 'seen' by many Predictomancers, and unless Erfworlders are unusually fatalistic AND indolent about it, you'd probably expect that kind of prediction to be talked about from time to time.

And it isn't, Erfworld doesn't have its version of 2012. So it's likely that Predictamancers are rare, or unrepeatable (ask one about the outcome of some event, they'll tell you; ask another, and they won't know) or that the particular one that made the prediction is really gifted. Maybe titanically so.

In any case, yes, the quest for the 4th Arkentool has all but been anounced.

joosy wrote:I also predict that we will see the introduction of a snarky/smarmy piker called P. Armour who gets repeatedly proven wrong but refuses to accept it.


Right, so you've been praying to the Titans for Scarlet Sylvia to croak (and don't worry, thine wish will be granted) and now you want to put in some other minor character that really started out its existence as a forum, some would say, twoll?

Tsk tsk tsk. *wags finger* I'm sure Erfworld does not indulge in such petty vengeance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 19

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:40 am

ftl wrote:I think we agree on where it came from; it was Parson pushing people's buttons (first Stanley's, then Ansom's) because he realized that it meant something to them, and them taking his words completely dead serious and keeping it as a full-blow ideology. Do we agree? I can't tell what you're saying.


I think there were multiple steps on to the development of Toolism. First Stanley claimed his new titanic mandate, after he became overlord. But not as some kind of new religion, but as a personal statement to fight his own inferiority complex. That provoked the kings and queens of the RCC to declare their war a crusade to disprove his mandate. When Parson made his "tool" comment, he brougth in something new: the idea that the attuned wielders are a direct instrument of the titans and that they have some destiny to fullfil. Later when he declared that "royalty is obsolete", he defined that destiny, namely to put an end to the dominance of royalty. When Ansom was decrypted, he adopted that idea and filled it life. Ansom seem to be the driving force in GK right now (or at least was during the summer updates). He took down Unaroyal, he tried to convert other sides to Toolism, he planed and executed the attack on Jetstone. Wanda showed much less interest in spreading Toolism; she didn't even made the effort to talk with Queen Bea.
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