159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby Rekov » Fri May 08, 2009 11:22 am

If I were Parson, I would start worrying about just how loyal those decrypted undead are. Will they obey Wanda even against Parson?
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby PyritePyro » Fri May 08, 2009 12:00 pm

I'm just wondering if all this isn't a setup for someone to be against Parson and his Toolishness for book 2. Parson could end war in Erfworld, but I doubt it. There will always be something to disagree over, and someone who disagrees with the Tool might summon one of Parson's gaming buddies.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby dirocyn » Fri May 08, 2009 1:01 pm

Warriortribble wrote: Wanda is treating these decrypted units like they're mindless uncroaked, ignoring their confused expressions and simply continuing her mass revival. I wonder if her apathy will hurt Gobwin Knob later on.


She has to just go on reviving. Remember, bodies disappear with the trash at the end of the turn. Also, in order to decrypt the coalition army, Wanda will have to find those units across multiple hexes. If she can do that, Gobwin Knob will have the entire Coalition army at it's disposal, with zero upkeep and they don't decompose. When you add they're now one of the richest sides in Erfworld (meaning they can start popping new units like crazy), Gobwin Knob will probably be the most powerful side by the end of this turn. 'Course, I bet Stanley's the one who decides what units to pop, so they may have a poorly-designed force.

Wonder how many of Charlie's Archons got taken out by the volcano. Wonder if it got Charlie?
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby SteveMB » Fri May 08, 2009 1:13 pm

dirocyn wrote:'Course, I bet Stanley's the one who decides what units to pop, so they may have a poorly-designed force.

"Dwagons!"
"Er... my lord Tool, what sort of units should we pop to support the dwagons?"
"Moar Dwagons!"
Is this a real holy war, or just a bunch of deluded boopholes croaking each other?
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby Ragn Charran » Fri May 08, 2009 1:14 pm

Morak wrote:...And a previous strip revealed that Wanda has no loyalty spells on her.

So Wanda does what she wants to.


Remember that Loyalty is natural thinkamancy. All units have it (except overlords and barbarian leaders, presumably) without having spells on them. The question is how high their Loyalty is. Parson's klog mentions captured units usually have low Loyalty, so only units worth some sort of cost to fix that problem are captured, this is usually reserved for casters. I have always assumed this cost was the type of loyalty spell Jillian thinks is on Wanda and that Jaclyn confirms is not there.

This lack of a loyalty spell is not proof that Wanda is a secret free agent only pretending to be bound to the Tool, it only means it is a possibility. She may have been able to turn but simply chose not to when offered the chance, but she could also have been unable to turn due to a high Loyalty score in her natural thinkamancy - possibly due to extended time working for Stanley, his better treatment of her than Banhammer did, his side's goals meshing with her own, etc. While the former is a definite possibility, there's nothing so far to disprove the latter - Wanda so far has always followed orders, so nothing there disproves Obedience, and while some may say her not telling Parson about her scrolls proves she's not compelled by Duty (and thus shows she doesn't work for Stanley), considering that her reason was explained - she didn't believe Parson could use them effectively since he wasn't perfect - and that not telling him also impeded her goal of getting the Arkenpliers, that's not strong enough evidence to me. Plus, she can't be barbarian, considering Stanley's concern for his treasury I find it hard to imagine even he wouldn't notice that what should be one of his most expensive units has no upkeep cost.

tl;dr: Wanda may be able to turn and waiting for the right opportunity, but I haven't seen anything yet to prove she's a barbarian or that she doesn't have high natural Loyalty to Stanley.
So, Uncle Xykon, what's the moral of the story?
...And they died happily ever after. The End.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby Skorj » Fri May 08, 2009 2:06 pm

At this point, the Pliers seem ridiculously overpowered. If you've ever played a strategy game where the size of your army was bounded by maintenance costs (or simply a hard cap), once the game gets rolling whoever has the highest size limit tends to dominate. That would in turn allow for continued growth of Parson's forces, as every victory adds to his maintenance-free troops.

However, artifacts traditionally come with a downside, often one that's hidden initially. I wonder what the price of the Pliers will be - game balance isn't just in the stats, after all.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby konmanrocks » Fri May 08, 2009 2:57 pm

im thinking that there has to be some built in limit to the pliers. otherwise, they are just way to damn powerful. also the train of thought saying that wanda might leave with all these new uncroaked? it is possible, but they would have to break there allegiance to the tool as well, and we dont know how strong that is.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob

Postby Morthe » Fri May 08, 2009 3:02 pm

I would guess that loyalty is the highest to the overlord that popped you and even with a new overlord from your own side, you would lose some loyalty.

On b1p5 (book 1, page 5), it becomes clear that Stanley is fighting because of a quest for the Arkentools. So either both have the same goal or Wanda was manipulating Stanley.

I also like Wandas "I knew only that I would attune to an Arkentool someday." because that could mean that there is more reduced free will in Erfworld. Not only are units popped to fulfill a specific role but already have implanted goals (at least higher ranking units). So again it's like a game where you get your mission beforehand...

Therefore still not sure if Wanda is that loyal to Stanley. Life goal: get an Arkentool - check. Too bad Parson does not ask her what other goals she got.


[btw: 'poppen' is not a nice word in german]
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby Angband » Fri May 08, 2009 3:35 pm

For all the people who are thinking that the Arkenpliers are extremely overpowered, remember that both the attuned Arkenhammer and Arkendish allow the wielders' sides to produce INCREDIBLY powerful, versatile, flying units. The units that Wanda decrypts only have the exact same stats that the unit had before it was, err, encrypted. Therefore, the no upkeep/no decay/no limit per turn is to offset the inherent limitations of the units the Arkenpliers produce.

What makes the Arkenpliers overwhelming in this particular case is that it got attuned to someone who was in control of a hex that contained thousands of decryptable corpses, including warlords and a dozen of the uberunits produced by a different Arkentool. But without all those corpses, the Arkenpliers would not benefit a side so much right off the bat.

The big question now is what happens to decrypted troops when they are re-croaked. If they turn to dust, like regular uncroaked, then Wanda's side just has to win the battle without taking too many losses, and they can replace their losses with their decrypted foes.

But if re-croaked troops can be re-decrypted, then Wanda's side has become the borg. As long as they win the battle, regardless of casualties, all of the fallen on both sides can be decrypted.

We are Gobwin Knob. Wesistance is futile. You will be assimiwated.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri May 08, 2009 3:44 pm

We awe Gobwin Knob. Wetweat in dwead o we will cwush you wuthlessly.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Fri May 08, 2009 4:35 pm

I just thought that Ansom could be more useful in the long run that the pliers. He has something no one else has in Gobwin Knob: Leadership. And I don't talk about the stat. He can forge and maintain large coalitions. He is the perfect agitator for Stanley's holy mission. He could simply persuade other sides to ally with Stanley.
Provided Stanley is clever enough to broaden his personal mission into a religious movement, or at least don't keep Ansom from doing so.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby MarbitChow » Fri May 08, 2009 4:53 pm

The old Ansom may have been great at forming coalitions.

The new Ansom is a fearsome, decrypted beast bent on world domination.

I'm guessing that may hamper his diplomatic skills somewhat.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby Morglum » Fri May 08, 2009 5:03 pm

In light of panel 7, and following passage from "Dude" in the Reactions to page 145:

"Would people please stop using "Decrypted" in regard to Ansom's new status as a unit?
It doesn't mean what most of you probably think it means (hint: it has nothing to do with a crypt). It means
decoded.

How about you use reanimated instead, and stop sounding stupid?"


I feel compelled to:

:lol:
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby EdgarVerona » Fri May 08, 2009 5:18 pm

Well... RIP Bogroll. Maybe Parson will pour one out for you.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby Deacon Blues » Fri May 08, 2009 7:09 pm

Morglum wrote:In light of panel 7, and following passage from "Dude" in the Reactions to page 145:

"Would people please stop using "Decrypted" in regard to Ansom's new status as a unit?
It doesn't mean what most of you probably think it means (hint: it has nothing to do with a crypt). It means
decoded.

How about you use reanimated instead, and stop sounding stupid?"

Sorry, the use of the term's official as of this point. Wanda herself coined it within Erfworld; hopefully the original forum poster gets some story love.

kreszantas wrote:What Are you forgetting about the Van de Gaffe that sent Cesar on his keister along with a stack of heavies? The hammer ONE SHOT them right out of action if that is not a formidible single stack attack I am not sure what one is.

Using a Tool in a very brute-force fashion, yes, which is what Ansom was doing. I'd like to think that the Arkentools have more utility than just using them as brute-force clubs. Wanda proves that the Arkenpliers, at least, do.

Fuzzypaws wrote:The big questions now are what happens next - and especially, what is Stanley's reaction to everything going to be.

I don't see Wanda as the type to defect and start her own side, skulls on all the decrypted notwithstanding. She seems much more like a power behind the throne type. Life is easier and more convenient when your enemies are gunning for your patsy rather than for you.

Stanley's probably going to be pissed that his city is now Level 0, but pleasantly surprised at the results -- up until he demands that Wanda give him the Arkenpliers, and she tells him no. Hopefully Parson can make him realize that the Arkenpliers with an attuned wielder, is a much better addition to his force.

Of course, Stanley will gleefully chortle and caper at Ansom being subservient to him now. This might be the very fact that makes him realize that Wanda should retain possession of the Arkenpliers. And if she's willing to continue under his leadership... then technically he has a second Arkentool.

Wanda isn't a Warlord -- she's still a Croakamancer, unless the Arkentools change your unit type (which they might, but I don't think so. They didn't change Stanley's, after all). She still needs Parson, and Parson is linked to Stanley by the original summoning spell. Wanda is not stupid, and isn't going to alienate Stanley and lose access to Parson (who is potentially a third Arkentool).
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby Darkside007 » Fri May 08, 2009 10:04 pm

Parson being an Arkentool is the tallest epileptic tree there is.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby kreszantas » Fri May 08, 2009 10:23 pm

Deacon Blues wrote:{snip}
kreszantas wrote:What Are you forgetting about the Van de Gaffe that sent Cesar on his keister along with a stack of heavies? The hammer ONE SHOT them right out of action if that is not a formidible single stack attack I am not sure what one is.

Using a Tool in a very brute-force fashion, yes, which is what Ansom was doing. I'd like to think that the Arkentools have more utility than just using them as brute-force clubs. Wanda proves that the Arkenpliers, at least, do.{snip}


Well Stanley also used the Hammer to fly within the hex, something that none the other tools have done, even carrying Jack (well it was part of his veil) however, it also turned a non-dwagon unit into a pidgon also thus instantly croaking it (Carnymancy anyone?) So there are alot more things about ALL the tools that still need to be discovered. The Van de Gaffe was not really 'brute' force from him actually striking it was the force of the "lighting" that Stanley stated at the beginning of the fight, your all the power I need.. to the hammer.
Huh? What was that sound, oh nevermind it was nothing.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby Anima » Fri May 08, 2009 10:36 pm

Ansom becoming decrypted, especially in the form chosen (not the alternate one shown on the main website) is pretty much the worst thing that could have happened for Parson. Stanley is not going to be happy that his city is level 0, and won't be happy that Wanda got the Arkenpliers and isn't going to give them up. If he can, he'll disband them in a second and institute Ansom as his new Chief Warlord.

Everyone seems to assume that Stanley will like what Parson has done, and by all accounts he should, as he's in a much better position now than before--but you're forgetting that the reason they're in this situation in the first place is that Stanley has no strategic or tactical mind whatsoever--he picks Warlords by how pretty they are. And now he has Ansom.

If Stanley doesn't fall off his dwagon on the way to Gobwin Knob, Parson and Wanda are booped.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby Joe Falco » Fri May 08, 2009 11:04 pm

Anima wrote:If Stanley doesn't fall off his dwagon on the way to Gobwin Knob, Parson and Wanda are booped.


Maybe, maybe not. Remember when Parson asked Wanda how he's supposed to deal with Stanley (Page 43)?

Wanda's answer:

"Stop fighting him. Never challenge his dominance. When you know what needs to be done, arrange it so it was his idea. Let him have your way."

Depending on how Parson and Wanda handle Stanley, His Toolship will believe that everything was the result of his "cunning leadership". Certainly, Stanley could become so outraged that nothing those two can say or do will calm him down just like when Jillian broke the suggestion spell and helped save the day then. At this point, I think that however angry Stanley will feel at the sight of his ruined city, not being able to attune to the Arkenpliers, among other possible things, Parson and Wanda will be savvy enough to be spared from Stanley's wrath.

But we shall see soon enough.
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Re: 159 The battle for Gobwin Knob, page 146

Postby Anima » Fri May 08, 2009 11:20 pm

I don't think it's really possible to convince Stanley it was his idea--remember he's been some distance from the area while all this is going on, in hiding with no contact to Gobwin Knob, and before he left he explicitly told them he didn't want to see them again--there's really no way to spin that to say "We thought you meant to tell us to do this."

Plus, and maybe it's me, but Stanley seems like a "present situation" kind of guy who doesn't really see how his current situation can turn out BETTER in the long run if he does/sees something bad NOW. You saw how he was infuriated with the retreat--he''s not going to listen to anyone telling him how he can rebuild Gobwin Knob bigger and better--just that it's smaller and worse NOW.
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