Book 2 – Page 21

[BLANDCorporatio]

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ, why does almost EVERYONE on either side of the argument pretend that "gamebreaking" is what's at stake here?

from a story perspective it's the single best outcome. As it stood, GK was steamrollering everyone - and we all knew, from a plot perspective, that that needed to change, but how? We had theories of cloaked teleporting archon armies and secret gobwin tunnelers and even more outlandish ideas.

However, for the entire book, Rob has been establishing memorable new characters - Tramennis, Sammy, the dittomancer, Commander Eyebrows - and then stranding them in places where they could have no effect on the outcome of battle{...} What's the simplest way to make them matter again? Let them move. What's the simplest way to let them move?

Thank you for going beyond the gamebreaking thing.

And I disagree. Just because something is convenient to the furtherance of the plot does not always make it a good thing, and while there were worse things suggested via speculation (see Charlie turning Wanda by magic), this is still not quite good imo.

Now as for the stranded characters- yes, it does seem a bit sloppy to leave your interesting characters out, and boy how convenient it is that they get to move/do stuff now. But why not have them get that chance later, without shattering the universe while you're at it? After all, a big part of why those characters were stranded out of usefulness is precisely that GK was smart enough to attack fast and fooled them. It was a good ruse, to have it spoiled by mancy is disappointing. Wasn't this webcomic also about clever warlords? Where's the cleverness if at any time some new magic gimmick could cancel all they've done?

In this forum, somebody, sorry forgot who, had a brilliant idea- what if the Turnamancer allowed Slately to call Tremennis an Heir? Nobody would have batted an eyelid at that one. You don't need any handwavium to explain why naming your heir out of turn is a rare occurence, and it's a fairly mild application of magic.

While Spacerock might have gone down, so cheers for GK for being clever, it's clear that Ditto and archers would not go down easily in front of the dwagons, and would likely reclaim what was left on the next turn. So cheers for them for being well prepared.

[splintermute]

To put my question another way, in book 1, what kept a single Gobwin archer in the garrison from continually shooting at the Archons in the airpace, on GK's turn, until they were dead? If turns, and archer's ammunition, are unlimited in duration then this seems possible, if extremely boring. Anywho, this update will either be awesome, or suck, dependent fully upon how it is followed up.

The invading RCC ground army. It's not a problem that they have this time.

I agree with you about Wanda - she can cast just about any magic type, but, unlike Sizemore, has no interest in magic theory.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Anywho, this update will either be awesome, or suck, dependent fully upon how it is followed up.

Right-on. I'm rather meh at the moment, but expecting things to pick up nicely afterwards. Something big just happened, so yeah let's see.

That said, I think the occasional gripe and such is not a bad thing. It's not usual that a story is perect all the time, and this is an appropriate time for me to complain about this particular one.

[badninja]

Wow, my computer goes down in the afternoon and by the next morning I get one big update. I just feel that the turnamancer is going to keep GK from having a turn or one that they can do anything with. I wounder is there any way to stop this ability. I just do not have the time to dig through 9 pages of posts right now.

[Firkraag]

I hope at least Wanda can still nuke the Tower on this turn. Technically, it doesn't sound like crossing spaces, but heck if we've found any consistency on this "rules" thing.

[Silverhorn]

Hey,

I don't think that this page was a mistake at all or "broken". Rob is constantly foreshadowing and in very discrete ways. We should have see this coming for 4 reasons.

1) There was something very odd about that turnomancer. The behavior was so cold and distant. Like someone who is a caster link.
2) When someone tried to talk to the turnomancer, someone non-female reacted VERY strongly and actually attacked the king. This was an attack on a king and world where kings have near absolute power. That kind of stuff can end alliances.
3) Compared to other archentools, the pliers are hands down the most powerful . . . as far as we can know. Costless units that still level and never degrade? Any heartless ruler would pop units and then immediately crook and decrypt them. That is certainly more powerful than a hammer that makes you a better fighter and allows you to tame & pop dragons and a dish that gives you bottomnless thinkograms and speedy access to a very expensive unit.
4) The world is heading towards an apocolypse. That is well foreshadowed. Apocolypse's involve a breaking down of order and what is expected.

For all these reasons I now believe that our little turnomancer is in a long distance caster link made possible by the Archendish. The other participants are far away, and for all we know there are considerablly more than just 3 in it. NOW that is a world breaking power on par with the pliers. Who needs an world spanning army of costless units when you can link up combinations of casters and have them work your will.

[Trotsky]

To put my question another way, in book 1, what kept a single Gobwin archer in the garrison from continually shooting at the Archons in the airpace, on GK's turn, until they were dead? If turns, and archer's ammunition, are unlimited in duration then this seems possible, if extremely boring. Anywho, this update will either be awesome, or suck, dependent fully upon how it is followed up.

The invading RCC ground army. It's not a problem that they have this time.

I agree with you about Wanda - she can cast just about any magic type, but, unlike Sizemore, has no interest in magic theory.

I don't think I explained well enough. What I mean is that GK had 1 turn between the Archons showing up and the RCC moving. This is the turn where they destroyed Jetstone's tunnel troops, a battle the archer's were unneeded for. What prevented them from moving all of the archer's to the garrison while this was going on and having them attack Archons until just before the end of turn and then returning to the wall? Could they have even sent a thinkagram to Stanley begging him not to end turn so they could kill a bunch of Charlie's units (something I suspect Stanley would have enjoyed)? This would, of course, be absurdly boring story-wise and make Charlie seem like an idiot. As Charlie is not meant to seem like an idiot, a limit to an archer's ability to continually attack fliers is implied.

That being said, this is a rather minor point that is easily overlooked out right or explained with a plethora of reasons (including that everybody was too busy trying not to die to think of it).

[Darkside007]

Well, power creep kills another excellent story. This is even more broken than Stasis/Chronatog, in a story about strategy.

Balder, could you at least give enough foreshadowing so that we can tell a caster is linked, at least? Or that stasis-effect spells exist? You keep pulling these things and Erfworld'll turn into 'Superweapon Of The Week".

[gazes_also]

It's ... Astounding!
(Can't believe I'm the first one to get that one in)

I have to say I like this one. GK was becoming completely unstoppable and it was going to take something radical to turn the tables. For those crying "no fair" it was hinted at all a long that Turnamancers could have an effect on turn order, and can accelerate turns for a side, so with Arkentool boost from Charlie, ending turn seems quite plausible.
It looks like with GK's name on the board Vanna took control of their turn and gave the 'end turn' command, simple as that.

My opinion of Jillian went up immensely on this one, she played her hand brilliantly. The offer to Wanda always looked like Plan B, but still looks like a genuine attempt to save her. Likely conditions for the Time Warp were she had to get GK leadership into her hex and GK paused between movement and combat. Charlie probably came up with the need to parley, and assuming that Ansom and/or Wanda would be leading the troops, Jillian was the only one who could get it; what was said would be up to Jillian. So getting the parley +1 Jillian.
Then she pulls two pieces of excellent misdirection: 1) the Turnamancer this there to help break loyalty to Stanley; 2) she is resigned to her fate and want to send her caster back to MK
1) if Wanda suspected what Vanna could do, Jillian threw her off and on the defensive to protect herself from being turned +1 Jillian
2) She had an excuse to return to the tower, issue the order for the spell and keep Wanda in place. + 1 Jillian

As she said EVERYONE underestimates her.

The next thing I think will happen is Jillian comes back ( parley has not ended remember) and says "What do you think of my offer now?"

The whole premise of Wanda's attack was to destroy the tower before the end of turn and eliminate JS entirely even at the cost of all her existing troops, move Ansom's ground troops to the city and prepare for the Haggar counter attack, that is no longer possible. Even if SR falls the ground column will be destroyed and all of GK's forces in the field will eliminated by the end of the day.

If she'd pulled it off, Wanda could have withstood Stanley's anger at her disobeying orders, now she's completely booped, the tools are split after this one.AND Parson will be off the sidelines.

All in all this is a perfect Charlie move. It's not truly game-changing, in the way that the volcano was, or turning all the decrypted would have been: it doesn't eliminate one side; it just tips the balance, eliminates an advantage, and leaves the sides to fight it out. End result, both sides severely damaged but not destroyed, and the Royals need Charlie again and obliged to him for helping them out.

[Alexei P]

It's ... Astounding!
(Can't believe I'm the first one to get that one in)

I have to say I like this one. GK was becoming completely unstoppable and it was going to take something radical to turn the tables. For those crying "no fair" it was hinted at all a long that Turnamancers could have an effect on turn order, and can accelerate turns for a side, so with Arkentool boost from Charlie, ending turn seems quite plausible.
It looks like with GK's name on the board Vanna took control of their turn and gave the 'end turn' command, simple as that.

My opinion of Jillian went up immensely on this one, she played her hand brilliantly. The offer to Wanda always looked like Plan B, but still looks like a genuine attempt to save her. Likely conditions for the Time Warp were she had to get GK leadership into her hex and GK paused between movement and combat. Charlie probably came up with the need to parley, and assuming that Ansom and/or Wanda would be leading the troops, Jillian was the only one who could get it; what was said would be up to Jillian. So getting the parley +1 Jillian.
Then she pulls two pieces of excellent misdirection: 1) the Turnamancer this there to help break loyalty to Stanley; 2) she is resigned to her fate and want to send her caster back to MK
1) if Wanda suspected what Vanna could do, Jillian threw her off and on the defensive to protect herself from being turned +1 Jillian
2) She had an excuse to return to the tower, issue the order for the spell and keep Wanda in place. + 1 Jillian

As she said EVERYONE underestimates her.

The next thing I think will happen is Jillian comes back ( parley has not ended remember) and says "What do you think of my offer now?"

The whole premise of Wanda's attack was to destroy the tower before the end of turn and eliminate JS entirely even at the cost of all her existing troops, move Ansom's ground troops to the city and prepare for the Haggar counter attack, that is no longer possible. Even if SR falls the ground column will be destroyed and all of GK's forces in the field will eliminated by the end of the day.

If she'd pulled it off, Wanda could have withstood Stanley's anger at her disobeying orders, now she's completely booped, the tools are split after this one.AND Parson will be off the sidelines.

All in all this is a perfect Charlie move. It's not truly game-changing, in the way that the volcano was, or turning all the decrypted would have been: it doesn't eliminate one side; it just tips the balance, eliminates an advantage, and leaves the sides to fight it out. End result, both sides severely damaged but not destroyed, and the Royals need Charlie again and obliged to him for helping them out.

Just want to say that this is a very compelling case. Still dubious, but now I'll give this plot twist a chance.

[gameboy1234]

Jillian truly has grown into a queen. Smile, but keep your true weapon secret untill the end.

Anyway, remember the archons at GK in book1? They couldn't leave the airspace or attack ground troops when it wasn't their turn.

Wanda is a siting duck now, in the middle of the air. She can't reach Jillian or the king. All the enemy has to do is position their forces and then unleash hell.

Actually, I think Wanda could hit Stanley. Remember when Charlie first appeared and threatened to take GK? The tower is "adjacent" to the air space, so it can be hit from the air space. (OTOH I guess it might require an attack from the tower for Wanda to retaliate, but I think Erfworld's "rules of engagement" are a bit more complex than that, and Wanda could likely take more complex actions, just based on the fact that both sides occupy the same hex).

OTOH, Slately can now just walk out of the tower and out of Wanda's reach, which is exactly what Parson did after Charlie ended his turn. Parson left the tower, went to the courtyard, and then went to the dungeon, all on Jetstone's turn, just because the entire city was considered "one hex" and it doesn't cost any Move to move around in.

So we're kinda saying the same thing, just the details of the rules of Erfworld are different. Wanda isn't really a sitting duck, imo, any more than Charlie's Archons were back in GK. Wanda still has the biggest baddest force in that hex, period. However, if Charlie's Archons show up in significant force right now, it could be bad for Wanda. Then she will be a sitting duck.


The average result for GK right now is: Jetstone's forces at the bridge rush back to Spacerock, which would be now too tough to take with a single strike from Wanda. A long siege will now be necessary. Time to reconsider options. Wanda gets scolded for not taking Ansom's and Ossomer's advice when attacking Spacerock.

Worst case for GK: 200 Archon's unveil only two hexes away from Spacerock, and proceed to gank Wanda in the worst possible way. GK will now be slowly crushed by the RCC II.

[Ninjaguineapig]

WTF!?!? I was hoping (and expecting) for Jillian (or Charlie) to pull some genius plan out of that shiny hat of hers and save the day, only to be thwarted by Parson's superior brilliance. But this?! Come on! A turn delaying/skipping spell? When it's not even your turn?! Mr. Balder (and I have tons of respect for you and Erfworld), could you think of nothing better?

[fruityjanitor]

I actually liked this update. It was certainly foreshadowed in the last text update that Vanna was in some sort of link. Both the voice in Slately's head and the fact that the voice didn't like Slately talking to Vanna were hints that she was in a link with a powerful Thinkamancer (most likely Charlie, of course) and now I'm kicking myself for not realizing it until now.

I'm guessing that this never-before-seen long-distance caster link is probably a power of the Arkendish. I wonder who the third member of the link is, although I suppose it could just be a Thinkamancer - Turnamancer link, especially since the Thinkamancer is so powerful and has his own Thinkamancy Arkentool.

I think it's cool that we finally see somebody besides GK using a caster link.

As somebody else mentioned, a Turnamancer - Dittomancer - Thinkamancer link could be truly devious...

Can't wait to see what Jillian/Charlie's counterattack will be...

[Rosa Vernal]

Okay, so thinking about it more. I mean, yes, it's obvious that there was some Chekov's Gun going on, but... while we could kinda see the gun hanging over the fireplace in the background, it wasn't close enough to actually get the details. The volcano? Oh yeah, as soon as I saw it I knew it was gonna erupt.

Anyway: It may be "gamebreaking" but it is not "storybreaking." And yeah, it's clearly gotta be of limited use and so on, but I would certainly hope that somewhere during this arc, it's tactics and such that make a difference, not just "a wizard did it."

[oslecamo2]

Actually, I think Wanda could hit Stanley. Remember when Charlie first appeared and threatened to take GK? The tower is "adjacent" to the air space, so it can be hit from the air space. (OTOH I guess it might require an attack from the tower for Wanda to retaliate, but I think Erfworld's "rules of engagement" are a bit more complex than that, and Wanda could likely take more complex actions, just based on the fact that both sides occupy the same hex).

OTOH, Slately can now just walk out of the tower and out of Wanda's reach, which is exactly what Parson did after Charlie ended his turn. Parson left the tower, went to the courtyard, and then went to the dungeon, all on Jetstone's turn, just because the entire city was considered "one hex" and it doesn't cost any Move to move around in.

Hmm, I'll have to agree with you here. Wanda could perhaps attack the tower as it seems to be part of the airspace, but Slatey could just go down the stairs and Wanda couldn't attack the rest of the city now that it isn't her turn anymore.

So we're kinda saying the same thing, just the details of the rules of Erfworld are different. Wanda isn't really a sitting duck, imo, any more than Charlie's Archons were back in GK. Wanda still has the biggest baddest force in that hex, period. However, if Charlie's Archons show up in significant force right now, it could be bad for Wanda. Then she will be a sitting duck.

Don't forget the brunt of Jetstone's army and then that other ally wich was on the way. They can both reach the city by next turn. Wanda doesn't have the numbers to fight them all, even whitout Charlie apearing.

The average result for GK right now is: Jetstone's forces at the bridge rush back to Spacerock, which would be now too tough to take with a single strike from Wanda. A long siege will now be necessary. Time to reconsider options. Wanda gets scolded for not taking Ansom's and Ossomer's advice when attacking Spacerock.

Worst case for GK: 200 Archon's unveil only two hexes away from Spacerock, and proceed to gank Wanda in the worst possible way. GK will now be slowly crushed by the RCC II.

The dragon force deployed isn't prepared for a long siege. They're short on healing scrolls and there's something between 2 and 4 enemy armies converging into the city, and Ansom was sent away with their ground forces. Attack isn't an option anymore.

Hamster must again be called to use his gaming skillz to save the day!
Book 1-Defend a city against crushing odds.
Book 2-Get the valuable artifact wielding master mancer out of the enemy massive trap.

So, what we've seen untill now has been nothing but the introduction to another desesperate situation for Hamster to solve!

[gazes_also]

The average result for GK right now is: Jetstone's forces at the bridge rush back to Spacerock, which would be now too tough to take with a single strike from Wanda. A long siege will now be necessary. Time to reconsider options. Wanda gets scolded for not taking Ansom's and Ossomer's advice when attacking Spacerock.

Worst case for GK: 200 Archon's unveil only two hexes away from Spacerock, and proceed to gank Wanda in the worst possible way. GK will now be slowly crushed by the RCC II.

Don't think so - remember the primary objective was to destroy the tower and croak Slately. The forces were pretty evenly matched and it was essentially a Do or Die attack. Wanda's force would now take substantial losses for no gain and whatever is left will have to limp back to GK on the next turn.
At the bridge with an array of casters Temenis can likewise inflict severe damage of the stationary GK column, and when Sammy realizes what is happening he will probably come off the fence and throw his weight behind his allies.

As for Wanda getting 'scolded' let's see:
1)she went off without the commander whose bonus was needed to ensure victory
2) she forbade him from telling Stanley
3) she stopped to parley on what was supposed to be a lightening strike
4) she fell for Jillian's trap
5) all of which lead to the loss of most of his army and a lot of his dwagons

"you've been a naughty girl, got to you've room, you're grounded" doesn't quite seem to cut it somehow.
To Stanley it might even look like deliberate treachery.
What's the next best thing to turning one of you opponent's commanders? Making it look as if you've turned them.

Wanda's best chance of survival is to turn to Jillian now.

[oslecamo2]

"you've been a naughty girl, got to you've room, you're grounded" doesn't quite seem to cut it somehow.
To Stanley it might even look like deliberate treachery.
What's the next best thing to turning one of you opponent's commanders? Making it look as if you've turned them.

Wanda's best chance of survival is to turn to Jillian now.

Oh, I hadn't noticed that, it's brilliant! Charlie doesn't lose any archons and divides Gobwin Knob!

On the other hand, Wanda didn't need much help to show herself as a traitor. Stanley has been seriously worried about her ever since he returned to Gobwin Knob and found her with the hammer and an army on decrypted.

[allanc]

Has anyone considered that it might be a *four* caster linkup? That would make it understandable that nobody considered the possibility that Spacerock would do this, since everyone assumes that 3 is the limit. But it's implied that the ability to link well is determined somewhat by the skill of the thinkamancer involved, and it's pretty obvious that Charlie (who has an artifact giving him *unparalleled* control over thinkamancy) is one of the casters involved in the link. Maybe you can only prematurely end someone's turn in a link with, say, a turnamancer, foolamancer and a luckamancer to make sure that the name that comes up on the Wheel of Fortune Board is the name you want, in addition to the Thinkamancer to control the thing.

[Mr. Goodwraith]

Parson is playing Erfworld on the equivalent of Deity level and his side has become very powerful. Everybody knows that when you play turn-based strategy games on Deity-type levels, the AI-controlled sides start cheating egregiously. ("How did they finish building The Pyramids in 20 turns?!!") So I wouldn't be surprised if GK's foes have access to more juice or more powerful spells than they should, even if they don't even fully realize it themselves. I also expect things to keep getting wackier and wackier, with things coming from way out of left field mechanics-wise and in story terms, as Parson comes closer and closer to his destiny of completely breaking Erfworld's game system.

[Tiger]

When it's not even your turn?!

I'm unable to find the klog in which it's explained, but you're able to cast when your hex is under attack. Wanda is in the airspace, which means that the city is being attacked, which means that the Turnamancer is able to cast.