Book 2 – Text Updates 015

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby vrellum » Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:49 pm

Maybe anyone can turn someone. The advantage of having a turnamancer might be that a person can be turned quicker if the turnamancer assists or does the turning. It would fit with their theme of shortening the number of turns required to do something
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby MonteCristo » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:06 pm

mindsword wrote:2) Considering a units move, why can't Tramennis do both? If he has the move to attack across the bridge and then retreat back to spacerock, why wouldn't he? If I could hit and destroy the ground force with little loss and still get back to Spacerockto fight, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Thats assumeing his units have enough move to do that, which might not be true. still, its a point that should be examined.

Well that depends on how many hex's away they are from the city... however i would say they should clear all the dwagons out of spacerock first and then hit the ground forces if they had enough move to do both

dan2178 wrote:Haggar is a wildcard. Currently, they move at the same turn as Jetstone at they are in the RCCII. I believe that if they break alliance, then they revert to normal turn order. I also believe that if their turn is prior to Jetstone then they would move first (I think this was Jillian's first plan to break alliance and have Wanda's force join FAQ). Thus, if Haggar moves before Jetstone, they could break alliance with RCCII and form an alliance with GK. This would allow the Haggar/GK alliance to conquer Spacerock with (I believe) not allowing Jetstone to act.

RCCII's turn has already started, in the text update Trem got the signal that there turn has started...
Furthermore, Haggar's plan was to wait for GK and Jetstone to beat eachother up and then finish off the winner

not to mention, that i would say that neither Dickie or Stanley would trust eachother to form an actual alliance; and what Stanley wants is for the royals to follow him not just rule by his side
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby randomstar » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:32 pm

Great update! (I'm biased, I always like text update, this one is among the ones I like more). After the disappointment of previous update, this one is refreshing

I like the way it’s shown how characters act when expecting death, and change attitude as soon as it’s their turn to bring death and despair. :D
A little chat before disbanding.... (and Trem is dangerously near heresy, he wants to question the Titans! do erfwolders burn heretics? ) I like him a lot from early strips. Really he could take some advice from Janis… could come out something interesting.
His questions delve in deep issues. Maybe the Titans really want people try to improve on their work, and that is the reason they left the arkentools around.
What do we know about erfworders (and arkentools)? Some of them believe their fate cannot be changed, things cannot be changed. When we read of Wrigley the spearman, he only wanted his spear, it was his fate, maybe if he found the arkenhammer, he would have presented it to the queen, and the hammer would have been hung on a wall, honoured and so, as happened to the pliers. When Stanley found the hammer maybe he attuned because he was ready to grasp opportunities to change, (started as spearman, was promoted warlord) and was ready to use it instead of putting it on a wall, and this way also discovered how to tame dwagons and crack nuts Wanda wanted to find her real power, actively did things to try to reach an arkentool (causing the fall of Faq, her own side, in the process!). Ansom didn’t want to change anything, he was waging war against GK to make things as they were.
Maybe, it is fate magic at work, that attune the arkentools to people that want to change things.
So, we have another interesting candidates to an arkentool (the other is not Parson, he is from a different place, even if is linked to erfworld fate magic).

Turning units: maybe require dungeon sessions. And a turnamancer can speed up things, but can also actively cooperate. And Jillian don’t have a high opinion of Vanna ability in the dungeon, mostly because she knows Wanda (that appears to be master-class)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby gatherer818 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:16 pm

- especially since Turnomancy is Motion only


I think that turning a unit - having them Move from one side to another - fits nicely into the motion axis. Just like making things run faster.

What if the pink dwagon goo is contagious, and it roots the target and anyone who comes in contact with him?


Do you happen to play Mutants and Masterminds? Most people would phrased that differently, but MnM uses Contagious for any effect that can be transmitted past the original target, so it got me wondering.



I liked Trem when we first met him for the comic relief... I still like him now, but it's a lot different. Almost a different character. None of the "Used how? Double the dog bowels." and a lot more comtemplation and seriousness...

{Disclaimer: When I say "Almost a different character" I specifically am NOT trying to imply that some Caster/Caster Link/natural ally with a neat built-in ability has somehow doppelganger'd Trem and taken his place. I mean he acts a lot different than my first impression of him.}
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby Black » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:40 pm

I think his flippancy is perfectly in line with the rest of his mannerisms. He is intelligent and a free thinker. His personality shifts to suit the mood and his whims. He was confident when he was joking with Ossomer. When they were under attack he sobered and his acute battle sense commanded his words. At the gates of destruction he stared into the abyss and to the abyss he said his piece. Now he is commander of an army revitalized with hope and resolve. His words are exactly what the situation demands. The spectrum of his personality isn't inconsistency, but the nuanced responses of a deep intelligence.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby MrSitouh » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:12 pm

Well put, Black - you said what I was going to say better than I could. The change in tone is understandable - in the space of a few moments, he's gone from someone likely to die horribly, or worse, in the immediate future, to someone in command of a significant force, and the wherewithal to use it to accomplish his goals. If anything, that crack at the end shows that deep intelligence - he knows the world is less than perfect, but right now, that's what he needs to accomplish his goals.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby fractal » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:00 pm

If the inhabitants of Erfworld are the Titan's work, and it's up to them to improve upon it, then what? Genetically engineered Marbits? Human/Elf crossbreeds?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby Vreejack » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:05 am

vrellum wrote:Maybe anyone can turn someone. The advantage of having a turnamancer might be that a person can be turned quicker if the turnamancer assists or does the turning. It would fit with their theme of shortening the number of turns required to do something


Loyalty is a hidden stat but it has a real value. The way that value manifests is that it places restrictions on what a unit can do. A chief warlord, for example, cannot easily turn on his overlord due to the former having an extremely high loyalty stat. Turnamancy probably affects the loyalty stat directly, which is how Jillian got her new high warlord despite his having been extremely loyal to the Jitterati.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:03 am

dan2178 wrote:That would only take three move (one to cross the bridge, two to return to Spacerock) so it should definitely be an option. In addition, with the Dittomancer and archers to support the flying FAQ units, the Jetstone forces will have the edge. They could even replace the weaker FAQ gwiffon riders with Tram and high level Jetstone noble warlords. In theory, I believe they could even have the FAQ units attack Ansom's column and then return as the GK units cannot attack unless they are attacked.


I wonder if the Dittomancer could, say, double a units movement. Considering the range of other things he can double it doesn't seem unreasonable.

Haggar is a wildcard. Currently, they move at the same turn as Jetstone at they are in the RCCII. I believe that if they break alliance, then they revert to normal turn order. I also believe that if their turn is prior to Jetstone then they would move first (I think this was Jillian's first plan to break alliance and have Wanda's force join FAQ). Thus, if Haggar moves before Jetstone, they could break alliance with RCCII and form an alliance with GK. This would allow the Haggar/GK alliance to conquer Spacerock with (I believe) not allowing Jetstone to act.


Well Trem's reaction seems to indicate it is Jetstone's turn, so I guess we will see. I don't really imagine Haggar joining GK, it just seems like a stretch since that was never their initial plan (and GK probably wouldn't want to surrender Spacerock to another royal side anyway).

Black wrote:I think his flippancy is perfectly in line with the rest of his mannerisms. He is intelligent and a free thinker. His personality shifts to suit the mood and his whims. He was confident when he was joking with Ossomer. When they were under attack he sobered and his acute battle sense commanded his words. At the gates of destruction he stared into the abyss and to the abyss he said his piece. Now he is commander of an army revitalized with hope and resolve. His words are exactly what the situation demands. The spectrum of his personality isn't inconsistency, but the nuanced responses of a deep intelligence.


Indeed.

randomstar wrote:Turning units: maybe require dungeon sessions. And a turnamancer can speed up things, but can also actively cooperate. And Jillian don’t have a high opinion of Vanna ability in the dungeon, mostly because she knows Wanda (that appears to be master-class)


Or Vanna approaches the dungeon purely as work, and not so much play.

I guess if all sides have prisons and dungeons that might speak of how turning takes place. You capture a unit and over time they might naturally turn in prison or another unit has to work on them in the dungeon. A turnamancer speeds up/improves the process, maybe improves the loyalty towards the new ruler the unit starts with when it turns.

I imagine a thinkamancer could also possibly be used in the turning process, quickening the turn as well, but via different means.

A bit like how you can build your city without them, but using a dirtamancer in the process makes it better.

MarbitChow wrote:5. The healomancer was saving his juice. Since it was the enemy's turn, an attack may occur at any time. The goo does no damage, and if the units still retain the warlord bonus w/ the goo on, there's no reason to remove it immediately. Better to have the goo on and have juice to heal him than to free him, only to watch him die because you couldn't heal him any more...


That makes sense. It looks like the goo just lasts till the end of the turn it was delivered on (So GK goos someone, and when GK's turn ends so to does the goo). If it looked like GK was coming back to attack the ground forces and the Healomancer could get rid of it I guess they might of, so Trem could fight. Otherwise no need to waste juice on something that would take care of itself naturally if they hadn't been dispanded by the time GK's turn ended.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:No, he's got too many fans ... must ... stay ... curmudgeonly!


Give yourself to the Trem side :lol:
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby vrellum » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:28 am

Vreejack wrote:
vrellum wrote:Maybe anyone can turn someone. The advantage of having a turnamancer might be that a person can be turned quicker if the turnamancer assists or does the turning. It would fit with their theme of shortening the number of turns required to do something


Loyalty is a hidden stat but it has a real value. The way that value manifests is that it places restrictions on what a unit can do. A chief warlord, for example, cannot easily turn on his overlord due to the former having an extremely high loyalty stat. Turnamancy probably affects the loyalty stat directly, which is how Jillian got her new high warlord despite his having been extremely loyal to the Jitterati.


Yes loyalty is a real stat. But that doesn't mean that only turnamancers can get units to change sides. We know that units can switch sides on their own (particularly if their loyalty is low). So it seems logical that turnamancers just affect the number of turns required to "convince" a unit to change sides.

I think the confusion is rooted in the dual meaning of the word "turn". It can mean "it's your turn to act" or it can mean "change sides". Turnamancers seem to be affecting the first one. Usually how long it will take for something to be achieved.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby CorrTerek » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:46 pm

So it seems logical that turnamancers just affect the number of turns required to "convince" a unit to change sides.


Sure, except that Jillian told Wanda she brought one along to specifically break the supposed Loyalty spells on Wanda. That's not affecting turns, that's direct action, and if turnamancers couldn't do that, Wanda would know and call her on it. The "turnamancers can't turn units" camp seems to be ignoring that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby DevilDan » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:17 pm

I caught myself thinking: Why don't more comics do text updates?

But then I realized that few could possibly do it this well.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby Rosa Vernal » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:34 pm

DevilDan wrote:I caught myself thinking: Why don't more comics do text updates?

But then I realized that few could possibly do it this well.


QFT.

I actually find myself looking forward to the text updates just a little more than the comics. Until the comic updates, at which point I like the comics more... and then the text updates and I want it more.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby gazes_also » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:39 pm

I like this one, a change of scene and pace from the last few pages.
Rob subtly sticks a couple of points in here that answer the fury on the forum over the last page.
GK's turn is definitely over, the effects of the goo attack has disappeared, it's not frozen or reordered - it's over.
Tram philosophizes that Maybe the rules are not what they appear to be or what we assume they are, they are not as fixed as we think and that the world can be changed and should be changed.

I think he is just rallying the troops at the end, I think he's too smart to go charging over the bridge without checking with Slately to ask 'what the heck just happened?' In fact, I think he may even make the offer again to Ansom to change sides now that the balance of power has shifted. I have this crazy idea that in Book 2 there may not be a large scale battle and aside from the odd skirmish or character fight conflicts are dealt with by negotiation between characters on different sides who really don't want to fight each other - now that would be different for Erfworld ( and would fit with the title).

He's a likeable character, but why wasn't he heir before this if he is the oldest?
My theory is that in a highly dynastic kingdom like Jetstone the chief warlord and senior warlords are always princes, this tends to lead to a fair bit of princely attrition ( as mentioned by T, he's lived a long time for a Jetstone Prince), and the need to have several available at anyone time. If three is the optimum number which is usually maintained there would develop a degree of specialization in type of prince, with each suited to different roles. Ansom Ossomer and Tramennis are just the latest iterations of those types. Ansoms are flamboyant and charismatic, Ossomers are grim, implacable and vicious and Tramennises are cunning and devious. The natural order of things would put a dominant 'O' type as first choice when an heir croaks, 'A' type next and 'T' type last, so it tends to alternate between Os and As. Tram has seen at least one set of older siblings perish and be replaced by the younger ones. This has given him his rather world-weary view on life. So why are the cunning princes never in direct line for the throne? Maybe someone that smart and devious is more likely to make a move to overthrow the king, but he's handy to have around because if, as in the current situation, both other heir types have fallen then the situation is so desperate military skill won't be enough to save the kingdom, it's going to take guile, cunning and imagination.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby vrellum » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:32 pm

CorrTerek wrote:
So it seems logical that turnamancers just affect the number of turns required to "convince" a unit to change sides.


Sure, except that Jillian told Wanda she brought one along to specifically break the supposed Loyalty spells on Wanda. That's not affecting turns, that's direct action, and if turnamancers couldn't do that, Wanda would know and call her on it. The "turnamancers can't turn units" camp seems to be ignoring that.


There isn't any evidence in the story that loyalty spells can't be broken by mundane methods. It just might take a long time and during that time the target character is not going to be very happy and they might resist. Also, the methods used to force someone to change sides look like they can be pretty drastic and time consuming. So it might be in the targets best interest to use a turnamancer to cut down on the amount of torture the target takes and cut down on th expense of having a skilled person torture them for a million turns.

Actually in order for Wanda to agree to have the loyalty spells broken would indicate that she has at least partially changed sides already and in the case we are talking about, she did it without a turnamancer. Charlie tried to get Parson to change sides as well, also without the aid of a turnamancer. Jillian tried to get Jack to change sides without a turnamancer. So there is a lot of evidence that a turnamancer is not required to get a unit to change sides. Further supporting the case that turnamancers just make the process quicker.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby Lord Kasavin » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:50 pm

gazes_also wrote:He's a likeable character, but why wasn't he heir before this if he is the oldest?


I think it has to do with what is expected of Jetstone princes. Tramennis said he's lived comparitively a long time, meaning most prince's live shorter lives. Why would they? Because they are expected to fight on the frontlines and lead by heroic example. Unfortunately, that also tends to get princes killed. However, those that don't die tend to be very high level.

Tramennis strikes me as the kind of person who would rather avoid risky engagements and rely on guile and striking weakpoints. As a result, he's seen as a less than ideal son of Jetstone... and quite possibly doesn't have as high a level as his younger brothers despite being older.

This also makes me wonder what Slately's level is. So far, he's been presented as a Don King type, a level 1 ruler. However, this does not square with the rest of Jetstone. He might be a rather high level Warlord. Also, does he have any brothers that are still around? What would they be called if so?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby ftl » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:57 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:\
This also makes me wonder what Slately's level is. So far, he's been presented as a Don King type, a level 1 ruler.


Wait. Do we really think Don King is level 1???

I certainly never got that impression. He has no direct combat experience, that much we know, but I didn't think we could extrapolate from that to a level number.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby Lord Kasavin » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:10 pm

ftl wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:\
This also makes me wonder what Slately's level is. So far, he's been presented as a Don King type, a level 1 ruler.


Wait. Do we really think Don King is level 1???

I certainly never got that impression. He has no direct combat experience, that much we know, but I didn't think we could extrapolate from that to a level number.


OK, we know he became king soon after he was popped. I assume he popped at level 1. After becoming King, its stated he rarely left the capital. I also assume he'd have to fight to level, which require leaving the capital for more than a goodwill tour. Hence, he'd still be level 1. Admittedly, this has never been stated specifically, but implied enough that for my purposes assumed true.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby gazes_also » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:52 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:
ftl wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:\
This also makes me wonder what Slately's level is. So far, he's been presented as a Don King type, a level 1 ruler.


Wait. Do we really think Don King is level 1???

I certainly never got that impression. He has no direct combat experience, that much we know, but I didn't think we could extrapolate from that to a level number.


OK, we know he became king soon after he was popped. I assume he popped at level 1. After becoming King, its stated he rarely left the capital. I also assume he'd have to fight to level, which require leaving the capital for more than a goodwill tour. Hence, he'd still be level 1. Admittedly, this has never been stated specifically, but implied enough that for my purposes assumed true.


Given the nature of Transylivito he may not have had to go far or even leave the capital to get levelling action. Dealing with assassination plots and would-be usurpers probably lead to enough croaking to level. It seems like the kind of place where you keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 015

Postby ftl » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:34 pm

Lord Kasavin wrote:
ftl wrote:
Lord Kasavin wrote:This also makes me wonder what Slately's level is. So far, he's been presented as a Don King type, a level 1 ruler.


Wait. Do we really think Don King is level 1???

I certainly never got that impression. He has no direct combat experience, that much we know, but I didn't think we could extrapolate from that to a level number.


OK, we know he became king soon after he was popped. I assume he popped at level 1. After becoming King, its stated he rarely left the capital. I also assume he'd have to fight to level, which require leaving the capital for more than a goodwill tour. Hence, he'd still be level 1. Admittedly, this has never been stated specifically, but implied enough that for my purposes assumed true.


Well, I would've guessed that you get XP/levels for "doing things" that are appropriate to your status - I'd be surprised if rulers essentially stopped leveling as soon as they became overlords/kings, since neither overlords nor kings seem to ever do much fighting. (Exception for Queen Jillian, of course, but she seems to be the exception and not the norm.)

I would have, on the contrary, assumed that since
1) Don King seems to be an experienced and effective ruler, he must therefore be high-level (natural signomancy and all that)
2) Since he's been sedentary for his entire life, there must therefore be ways for rulers to level without leaving the capital.

Personally, it seems much more likely, given the "nature" of erfworld, that there's ways for a ruler to level without leaving the capital RATHER than for there to be a straightforward way for a level-1 unit to nevertheless be extremely effective and powerful. Of course, both sides are all just "gut feelings" rather than textual evidence...
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