Book 2 - Text Updates 016

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Ehbobo » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:48 pm

BCCroaker wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:
atalex wrote: I think in the end, things will end badly for Caesar -- I assume his name is a reference to Little Caesar, a gangster character best known for his death scene.


Actually, his name references two casinos and a medieval power player.

If you mean Julius Caesar, he was Roman republic not medieval, so you are at least a thousand years out. But having said that, after him all the Roman and Byzantine emperors were called Caesar and that idea carried on long after. The Holy Roman Emperor etc and Kaiser, Tsar, Czar all derive from that. There was Caesari Borgia, he was medieval.
He was named after a salad Rob was eating at the time he named him is my guess.


Well, it's not uncommon at all for characters to have three or more references in their names.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:50 pm

Alternatively, there is only one reference that is "planned in", but there is always room for other people to see other references too. It's part of the beauty of the thing.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:28 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
if courtiers aren't combat-capable leaders, I wonder how they level? can you promote line infantry to courtier once they've leveled a few times in combat?


I guess if they were capable of lvling it might be however casters lvl... or maybe they don't level at all. Though your idea might work as well, I guess warlords can be promoted out of infantry so courtiers might as well, although Don does say after he disposed of the last lot he hadn't had anymore popped.

Although now I'm also thinking of DnD NPCs (commoners and aristocrats mainly). I remember Jillian talking about how Faq was under her father in that the few warlords they had were more like clerks... maybe Welf von Ehrwald's on to something with that subclass of warlords.


I suppose that courtiers need to be commanders. They not only manage cities, but also go on diplomatic missions. For that they have to be able to not engage a enemy unit. Maybe they have the same production time as warlords, give no leadership bonus and have bad stats for fighting, but have high mental abilities (Int, Wis, Cha) to offset that. I don't think they can (or should) be promoted from infantry; a courtier needs to be smart, and the smartest infantry we have seen so far is Stanley. For leveling, I think they gain a little bit experience from managing cities or going on diplomatic missions. Sometimes they could gain from fighting, when they defend their city. Or they don't level or gain less from leveling, and start instead with higher base stats.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Gorky » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:42 pm

I bet "Benjamin" looks like Ben Stein.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Dr Pepper » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:39 pm

BCCroaker wrote:
Dr Pepper wrote:
atalex wrote: I think in the end, things will end badly for Caesar -- I assume his name is a reference to Little Caesar, a gangster character best known for his death scene.


Actually, his name references two casinos and a medieval power player.


If you mean Julius Caesar, he was Roman republic not medieval, so you are at least a thousand years out.


Over 2000, actually, and no, that's not the reference.

But having said that, after him all the Roman and Byzantine emperors were called Caesar and that idea carried on long after. The Holy Roman Emperor etc and Kaiser, Tsar, Czar all derive from that.


Duh.

There was Caesari Borgia, he was medieval.


Cesare, actually. And yes, he's the one i was referring to. And as someone else pointed out, The TV warlord's full name, "Caesar Borgata", not only brings "Cesare Borgia" to mind, but he also has the name of 2 casinos.

He was named after a salad Rob was eating at the time he named him is my guess.


Could be that as well, Rob loves to stack his references.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby atalex » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:59 pm

Dr Pepper wrote:
atalex wrote: I think in the end, things will end badly for Caesar -- I assume his name is a reference to Little Caesar, a gangster character best known for his death scene.


Actually, his name references two casinos and a medieval power player.


Oh, right -- Caesar Borgata. Forgot his last name. Still, Cesare Borgia didn't have a happy ending either. He lost everything and died at the age of 31 after his worst enemy became Pope.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:53 am

Raza wrote:Liking Don King less in this update. Using power or authority to 'win' conversations is pretty much prohibitive to personal charm.


How so, the playing off of Jillian surprise like he knew how it would happen all along? Or sending the guys who nodded with Caesar out of the room? It sounded like, when things looked a bit rocky, Caesar started venting. We know his view on things and this probably wasn't the time for Caesar to air them in that way.

If he'd just ordered Caesar to be silent (like Stanley with Parson) I think it would speak less of him. He saw the mood, denied Caesar the chance to say something he couldn't take back or would distract from the bigger picture without denying him the chance to still contribute as CW (Caesar chose to stay silent himself), and then used an unexpected turn to shore up his position. He probably could have said "oh ye of little faith, eh, Caesar?" if he'd wanted to, but he didn't get to cocky.

splintermute wrote:He has 19 remaining warlords (according to update 3 - and I don't think any of them died between the beginning of the party and this point), 8 of whom were at the party, which leaves 11 who couldn't attend, as well as two casters - Benjamin (presumably a moneymancer) and the TV dollamancer. The only plausible reason I can see for a warlord missing the party is that they're not in the city, which suggests they're either attacking Carpool, or managing another TV city. The Chocula ambush suggests TV doesn't have the resources to keep attacking Carpool.


Well we know Vinnie is hanging out in Faq and Big Al is probably still managing his city. As for the other 9 not at the party - TV is on a war footing at the moment (more so then usualy I'd guess). Aside from the constant threat from Carpool I'd imagine the Don must have forces moving around or stationed in vital cities elsewhere in case GK comes calling, so that might mean more then one warlord in certain strategic locations or warlords between cities.

Assuming casters can't manage cities (otherwise I think Sizemore would be an ideal city manager), TV could have as many as 12 managed cities (the 11 absent warlords + the capital), in which case, if "most" of the cities are unmanaged, TV would have at least 25 cities. Of course, if Don has more than one warlord per city, there would be fewer cities, but if he has cities going unmanaged, you'd expect him to spread his warlords out as thinly as possible to get the maximum city-management bonuses.


As above, I imagine Don is more concerned with the war at the moment then with managing his cities. It wouldn't surprise me if the bulk of Don's remaining warlords were active in the field somewhere or standing by for action.

And with the drain Faq put on TV's treasury, according to Caesar, it is possible Don might not have the resources to be replacing every fallen warlord, which is unfortunate since warlords would help with the finances.

Also, he's offering the prospect of "a" nice level 2 on the coast - is there more than one nice level 2 on the coast? Does he have so many cities that he can just hand them out to his warlords like gold watches at a retirement party?


And not knowing about the lifespans of an Erfer it seems like even if he had five such cities if he filled those positions they'd likely then not be available then for a long time (unless such cities get attacked a lot and the managing warlord ganked). Still, TV warlords fight alot, and Don likely has high standards, so very few warlords might ever earn such a reward before they die in battle.

Jeivar wrote:Refresh my memory please: Have we ever been told WHY Don King decided to throw everything into rebuilding Faq and placing the whole war effort into the hands of a chaotic freelancer, rather than use the resources to strengthen his own army?


I'm not really sure, but I think creating a strong little proxy to do the fighting for TV. And since Faq relies so much on the TV treasury they are relatively safe from Jillian turning on them (plus Faq can only really be attacked by the air, which TV can do).

It was also a good idea to ensure Stanley doesn't just have some empty sites waiting to be rebuilt, though by just absorbing them into TV might not have been that usful either - three fairly hard to access cities (two of low level) that aren't hugely profitable would have just been more cities that TV would have to manage and defend themselves. Now, for the time being at least, the are caring for themselves and aiding TV against her enemies without TV getting involved (just like with the first RC)

gazes_also wrote:So Don knew nothing of Jillian's plan - will he be upset at her putting the turnamancer he paid for to speed up an heir into the front line?


He didn't. Charlie funded her contract the update said, though not being sure if there is ongoing costs with a hired caster TV might have provided some of her upkeep. At any rate she is still Jillian's caster and Don probably isn't going to be upset if Jillian taking her into battle helps the RCCII in a big way.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Raza » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:35 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Raza wrote:Liking Don King less in this update. Using power or authority to 'win' conversations is pretty much prohibitive to personal charm.


How so, the playing off of Jillian surprise like he knew how it would happen all along? Or sending the guys who nodded with Caesar out of the room? It sounded like, when things looked a bit rocky, Caesar started venting. We know his view on things and this probably wasn't the time for Caesar to air them in that way.

If he'd just ordered Caesar to be silent (like Stanley with Parson) I think it would speak less of him. He saw the mood, denied Caesar the chance to say something he couldn't take back or would distract from the bigger picture without denying him the chance to still contribute as CW (Caesar chose to stay silent himself), and then used an unexpected turn to shore up his position. He probably could have said "oh ye of little faith, eh, Caesar?" if he'd wanted to, but he didn't get to cocky.

The latter. Ordering people out of the room because they're supporting a position you don't want to hear about is pretty pathetic, especially when they actually have no physical choice but to obey. If they are also your friends and part of your objective is to avoid their disapproval, the corruption is intellectual, governmental and personal.

Previously he'd seemed the reasonable type, but I guess that's just because he was only ever on the offensive, point-making wise.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby spectralphoenix » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:14 pm

"But after his son's mistake, he'd ordered them off on various diplomatic outings until they'd all been croaked or turned."

Sounds a lot like Caesar's little adventure to me. I think he might be on to something about being set up.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Flyer » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:19 pm

Raza wrote:Ordering people out of the room because they're supporting a position you don't want to hear about is pretty pathetic, especially when they actually have no physical choice but to obey. If they are also your friends and part of your objective is to avoid their disapproval, the corruption is intellectual, governmental and personal.

Previously he'd seemed the reasonable type, but I guess that's just because he was only ever on the offensive, point-making wise.


I see Don as being a good general, focusing on the threat (in this case Caesar) and arranging the battlespace (in this case the war room) to his best advantage in neutralizing that threat - Sun Tzu would be proud....

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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Davre » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:52 pm

Raza wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Raza wrote:Liking Don King less in this update. Using power or authority to 'win' conversations is pretty much prohibitive to personal charm.


How so, the playing off of Jillian surprise like he knew how it would happen all along? Or sending the guys who nodded with Caesar out of the room? It sounded like, when things looked a bit rocky, Caesar started venting. We know his view on things and this probably wasn't the time for Caesar to air them in that way.

If he'd just ordered Caesar to be silent (like Stanley with Parson) I think it would speak less of him. He saw the mood, denied Caesar the chance to say something he couldn't take back or would distract from the bigger picture without denying him the chance to still contribute as CW (Caesar chose to stay silent himself), and then used an unexpected turn to shore up his position. He probably could have said "oh ye of little faith, eh, Caesar?" if he'd wanted to, but he didn't get to cocky.

The latter. Ordering people out of the room because they're supporting a position you don't want to hear about is pretty pathetic, especially when they actually have no physical choice but to obey. If they are also your friends and part of your objective is to avoid their disapproval, the corruption is intellectual, governmental and personal.

Previously he'd seemed the reasonable type, but I guess that's just because he was only ever on the offensive, point-making wise.


I think you're being a little naive.

These people are not a in a social club, nor jockeying for position in a modern corporation. It's a fantasy world with lot's of pop culture (as well as just plain cultural and historical) references, and it's got board game rules, but for the characters it's live or die and much more in common with an earlier, more brutish time. They've never heard of democracy, egalitarianism, modern management philosophies or anything along those lines. Well, at least I doubt the Transylvitan's have.

Don King is managing a very complex, difficult, and dangerous situation. Being anything less than manipulative - in this setting, with these people and these rules - would be extremely foolish. And it is not a given that he is not trying to help Caesar either. I do think it is a given that he is putting himself, or whatever he perceives his cause to be, first, but it doesn't follow that his actions are completely opposed to Caesar. Dancing Cthulhu's take is one example where that might be the case.

And anyways, if characters such as Don King and Caesar do not balk at killing people in large numbers to advance their side or their own position, why would you expect them to care about a little political maneuvering?
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Davre » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:56 pm

One interesting thing this update is that Caesar noticed that their turn had begun without being told by Don King. (I'm referencing the Stanley vs Slately discussion of the last update's reaction thread). Now that I think of it, there were numerous times in Book 1 were characters other than Rulers seemed cognizant of a turn's beginning or end.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby doran » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:32 pm

Davre wrote:One interesting thing this update is that Caesar noticed that their turn had begun without being told by Don King. (I'm referencing the Stanley vs Slately discussion of the last update's reaction thread). Now that I think of it, there were numerous times in Book 1 were characters other than Rulers seemed cognizant of a turn's beginning or end.


My guess is commanders see other's stats, and so know when their turn starts/finishes by when the move stat changes, non warlords are then alterted by horns.

Hypothesis: A sides natural turn order is set by the time of day when they are founded.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby gazes_also » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:31 pm

Raza wrote:
Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
Raza wrote:Liking Don King less in this update. Using power or authority to 'win' conversations is pretty much prohibitive to personal charm.


How so, the playing off of Jillian surprise like he knew how it would happen all along? Or sending the guys who nodded with Caesar out of the room? It sounded like, when things looked a bit rocky, Caesar started venting. We know his view on things and this probably wasn't the time for Caesar to air them in that way.

If he'd just ordered Caesar to be silent (like Stanley with Parson) I think it would speak less of him. He saw the mood, denied Caesar the chance to say something he couldn't take back or would distract from the bigger picture without denying him the chance to still contribute as CW (Caesar chose to stay silent himself), and then used an unexpected turn to shore up his position. He probably could have said "oh ye of little faith, eh, Caesar?" if he'd wanted to, but he didn't get to cocky.

The latter. Ordering people out of the room because they're supporting a position you don't want to hear about is pretty pathetic, especially when they actually have no physical choice but to obey. If they are also your friends and part of your objective is to avoid their disapproval, the corruption is intellectual, governmental and personal.

Previously he'd seemed the reasonable type, but I guess that's just because he was only ever on the offensive, point-making wise.


It's not that he doesn't want to hear Caesar's position, he's heard it all too often. There's a difference between disagreeing with the Boss in private - that's offering a different point of view - and disagreeing with him in public - that's a challenge, especially if you are restating you position which is already known. Don did what any good manager would do, defuse the situation. He saved Caesar from doing or saying something he couldn't back down from, saved the warlords from the embarrassment of choosing Don or Caesar, and he saved himself from exercising the power everyone there knows he has. It's good management of an unruly but capable subordinate.

As for the outcome, a leader always has to look as if he knows what he's doing, especially when he doesn't.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:04 pm

At least having a blind spot for subtlety made him easy to deal with most of the time.


Bunny is totally Don's plant.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby ftl » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:29 pm

If that's true, boop is really going to hit the fan if Caesar finds out...
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:55 pm

doran wrote:
Davre wrote:One interesting thing this update is that Caesar noticed that their turn had begun without being told by Don King. (I'm referencing the Stanley vs Slately discussion of the last update's reaction thread). Now that I think of it, there were numerous times in Book 1 were characters other than Rulers seemed cognizant of a turn's beginning or end.


My guess is commanders see other's stats, and so know when their turn starts/finishes by when the move stat changes, non warlords are then alterted by horns.

Hypothesis: A sides natural turn order is set by the time of day when they are founded.


Chief warlords like Ceasar can end a turn just like rulers, so they probably get the info automagicially when a turn ends or starts. Maggie as thinkamancer reads unit stats all the time, so she also should get infos like that very soon. The rest of the units may notice the start of their turn when their rations pop, they get clean and their wounds heal.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:09 pm

ftl wrote:If that's true, boop is really going to hit the fan if Caesar finds out...


Yeah, right up until Bunny mind controls him and turns him into a loyal Don supporter.

Man, that would be cold.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Plasmabunny » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:37 am

Hmmm, I suspect that units know that their turn has started by the fact their movement points refill. I imagine that all units are naturally aware of how much movement they have.
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Re: Book 2 - Text Updates 016

Postby Dances-with-Marbits » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:50 am

Plasmabunny wrote:Hmmm, I suspect that units know that their turn has started by the fact their movement points refill. I imagine that all units are naturally aware of how much movement they have.

And maybe Slately is a garrison unit, which would explain why he didn't immediately realize the turn change.
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