Book 2 – Page 24

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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Walter » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:36 pm

The power requirement that has been revealed already is rough, it takes 2 turns of Vanna's juice. So, presuming that Charlie had a turnamancer before Vanna, he could still only have done it every three rounds. In addition, it likely drains the other three members of the link, though we have yet to have any direct evidence of this.

To speak to the earlier point about Parson correctly predicting Jillian once he knows her levers...yes and no. The primary reason that it's harder to predict someone who acts rationally according to different axioms is that you don't know their axioms. Once he knows what she's about, and as a genre savvy fellow it shouldn't be too hard for him to figure her out, he can predict her actions. This is overcomeable.

The secondary reason that they are hard to understand is that followers of other axioms are never wholehearted in their fealty to it. They are also (by virtue of having survived this far) part time followers of the conventional and reasonable rules that everyone else abides by. The trick is telling when they will snap which way, and what shape their compromises will take.

Thus, someone who knew Jillian well could have predicted that she'd attempt to rescue Ansom. If she was entirely devoted to her love of him she'd simply die trying, predictable. If she was entirely devoted to optimal gameplay she'd forget him and pop a replacement after defeating the Decrypted, once again predictable. The problem is that Jillian is neither entirely fish nor fowl. She veers between irrational (remember her scouting nonsense?) and sensible (alliance with Charlie, squeezing support from Transylvito) without apparent pattern.

She's somewhere between Charlie and Stanley (chosen as avatars of rationalism and an alternate but predictable behavioral pattern respectively), and oscillates between the two. Even once he knows the axis along which she's a stanley (something like "stay free, defend my own") Parson can predict what she'll do when she follows her urges, and what she'll do when she follows the accepted optimal wisdom, but I doubt he can predict which she'll do in a given situation. I doubt she could either.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Ditto » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:07 pm

There is a power issue IMO, in that there needs to be a rational explanation as to why Charlie doesn't just do this every other turn to someone (most likely GK right now), effectively crippling that side. Because that certainly seems like a feasible option in the absence of additional information.

How about the idea that in order for the spell to work, you have to have a unit of the opposing team in the same hex as your turnamancer? Or perhaps it's not an 'end your turn' button, but merely burns off a 'quarter' of your turn, so it's only useful against folks who are running out of relative time to perform actions? (The idea being that one could not just never-end-turn indefinitely.) Or that it's highly unusual that ending someone else's turn like that provides a great benefit, since the primary benefit is that the opponent's move drops to zero - they can still defend themselves and attack within their hex/battlespace.

There's better uses for a turnamancer in unit production & conversion. There's better (and safer) uses for Charlie's mind & the arkendish.

All sorts of reasons not to do this every turn.

And BLAND- I was referring to other people's brainsplodes more than you. Your outrage is always quite well-sourced. :D
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
Sorry*.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Anca » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:28 pm

Maybe the "two turns at once" effectively borrows the next turn, so Jetstone's - or some side is - going to "miss" a turn in the next round.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Reclaimer » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:11 pm

Oberon wrote:I must have missed Vanna explaining all the details necessary to let the readers know that there is some logical reason why Charlie doesn't rule over a unified Erfworld. Not by a long shot.


Assuming he could find enough mid-level Turnamancers (Two, I guess, or maybe three to keep things comfortable), and assuming it doesn't affect the same two turns of juice cost from him as well, how would he take over the world with that spell? Keep stopping one side's turn whilst menacingly continuing to pop two Archons every three turns and angrily shaking his fist at the enemy? He uses Archons almost exclusively, and they're strong units, but he's got no warlords. If he sent a big fat stack of them at a big fat stack of anything else, they'd most likely get shredded.

Also, if a coalition came after him (Which it would, if he was trying to take over [See also: Stanley]), they could break alliance to get separate turns, and he can only stop one Side at a time.

Honestly without nasty tricks like that, he'd be a pretty unremarkable mercenary provider. It's situationally powerful because GK is a lone wolf, they have nobody to cover their backsides when stuff like this happens. If they had an ally, any ally, they'd be in a much better position. As a spell, I just don't see it as unbalancing. In a one-on-one fight it'd be a lot less handy. Getting ganged up on is one of the major problems with trying to take on the world by yourself.

Other than that, I agree with a great deal of what you say, and I'm honored you responded to my post at all.

And your mention of Fridge Logic is ironic for all the wrong reasons, considering last night... XD
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Flyer » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:55 pm

haviel wrote:Great update. I've had alot of fun so far,
Wonderful - I too enjoy the story immensely - the classic story of life on a chessboard but with a fresh spin. Along with its sibling comics in defining the roadmap of these new worlds of characters playing by rules - be they classic rpg or turn based fantasy.
but I have a bone to pick now.... :/
The grueling pace of the storytelling; both the amount of updates per week, and the low amount of information in the story.
It's starting to become tedious, I really want to keep caring about the story, but the sheer amount of time between updates makes me lapse into apathy.
For myself, I'm quite happy with the pace of the updates... I would also assert that faster is not always better.
You have to have one image made for every text update, which (I think, though I'm uncertain) slows down the pace of the updates.
I guess I'm proposing that Rob skip the Images with each update
>snip<
I'd be overjoyed with another text update, with or without a image.
Personally, I feel a second text update might dilute the storyline. After all, the graphic novel to stand on its own without the text updates. Now, we are discussing a bridge page. It gives the story a change to catch a breath and get into its perspective. Now to a certain extent, all the text updates are bridges between the page updates so it can end up seeming an overlong time since anything "happened" I think you'll find that is not really the case when you get the final book in hand and read it.
I also doubt the artwork would, could or has inhibited the regular posting of the text updates. Just my 2 copper pieces on this :)
I have no complaints about the story itself though. I really feel like people who complain that Erfwords Battle Machanic is Broken don't realize that Erfworld isn't a Game, Its a Game like Reality. Meaning its laws can be exploited without interest of fairness. Is it fair that we can split an atom and use that reaction to get enormous Energy? If our Reality were literally a Game of some kind, don't you think that atom splitting would be removed for Balancing issues?

I can see where you're going with this, as far as broken mechanics go. "Rocks fall and everybody dies, why? A wizard did it" is not a broken mechanic in games or storytelling as long as its done well - for an example, I'll just point to the end of the first book, up there on your bar next to "go to". I also must go with the idea put forth in the latest Goblins update - something about people who die while complaining about the rules...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Raza » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:58 pm

I'm not at all sure that text updates would be easier to pour out at a quicker pace. They seem to be delayed at least as often and as much as graphic pages, and Rob occasionally cites stuff like "I was rewriting chapter 1" for that. Seems to me he's just as busy, if not more so.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby multilis » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:07 am

" If he sent a big fat stack of them at a big fat stack of anything else, they'd most likely get shredded."

A big alliance has trouble with Goblin Keep but Charlie can take it out with 30 archons. He has 600.

In my experience very fast stacks have *big* edge over much larger forces of slow ground units *if* you don't have to worry much about defending your own turf. Charlie doesn't have much to defend, he has perfect setup for a rape plunder style tactics, attacking enemy where they are *weak* rather than where they are strong.

***

On ending turn, you don't need to do it every turn, just at key battle turns.

Lets pretend Charlie is using one of his "big fat stacks" to plunder all your poorly guarded lvl 1 or 2 cities and farms. Finally you get your "big fat stack" in range to attack him. As soon as 1/3 of your army get into his hex, he ends your turn, slaughters them, then pulls his "big fat stack" out of range, and stays out of range till he has juice to end your turn again.

How do you defeat him? He is wiping out all your income, you won't be able to support your big fat stack forever just with your capital. His stack can sit in middle of your kingdom, once every 2 or 3 turns and then attack any city you leave poorly guarded. His army is basically *invincible* on defense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Oberon » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:20 am

Walter wrote:The power requirement that has been revealed already is rough, it takes 2 turns of Vanna's juice.
Er, no. What Vanna said was:
Jillian: "How's your juice?"
Vanna: "Low. That spell cost two turns' worth, basically."

Vanna never referenced her own juice beyond saying that it was "low", that it was two turns of Vanna's juice is your own addition, and it is speculative and without support. We have what appears to be mutually exclusive statements. A caster can not both spend an entire turns juice and continue to cast, much less two turns juice. Vanna also says that she has juice enough to attempt a ranged turn of a high level unit. What we have here is a statement which says that although Kingworld spent "basically" two turns juice in the casting, Vanna still has enough juice to be able to attempt to cast potent spells. In other words, we do not see a real cost for Kingworld, at all. And unless we see some limits to Charlie due to this casting, Kingworld will be a free spell. A cost without impact is not a cost.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Oberon » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:00 am

Ditto wrote:
There is a power issue IMO, in that there needs to be a rational explanation as to why Charlie doesn't just do this every other turn to someone (most likely GK right now), effectively crippling that side. Because that certainly seems like a feasible option in the absence of additional information.
How about the idea that in order for the spell to work, you have to have a unit of the opposing team in the same hex as your turnamancer?
I have addressed this many times now, and yet it somehow keeps coming up as a supposed limitation to Kingworld... According to the rules as we have seen them, all that "defensive" (off-turn) casting requires is that a non-allied unit be present, so that the off-turn side can be considered to be "in combat" or "in battlespace." This is just too easy to game. Refer to my prior posts for details.
Ditto wrote:Or perhaps it's not an 'end your turn' button, but merely burns off a 'quarter' of your turn, so it's only useful against folks who are running out of relative time to perform actions?
The problem with this theory is that we have never been presented with even a hint that a sides turn can be divided up in this fashion. All we have seen is Turn Based Strategy Game mechanics, and none of those comply with any concept of a "fraction (quarter or whatever)" of a turn. A side has move for its units. It moves those it chooses to move, and then it ends turn. That's it.
Ditto wrote:Or that it's highly unusual that ending someone else's turn like that provides a great benefit, since the primary benefit is that the opponent's move drops to zero - they can still defend themselves and attack within their hex/battlespace.
No. Just....No. You're overlooking the incredibly potent impact that such a premature ending of turn can cause, as detailed within this exact sequence of events. GK, at the end of its natural turn, would have killed the Spacerock King, which would have eliminated all Spacerock units, and their infantry column would have joined the flying forces within Spacerock. Or at the very least the huge Spacerock column outside of Spacerock would have disbanded with the loss of their King, and the sole threat to the GK forces would have been the Haggar column. However, with the GK turn ended unnaturally, the GK forces are unnaturally split, and they are vulnerable in piecemeal. Yes, they can both defend. That is a trite point. The real point is that they have to defend separately, while if their turn had not been ended unnaturally they would have been defending together, or at least in a far better tactical position. This is the potency of Kingworld.
Reclaimer wrote:Also, if a coalition came after him (Which it would, if he was trying to take over [See also: Stanley]), they could break alliance to get separate turns, and he can only stop one Side at a time.
Charlie is NOT Stanley. Stanley, down to his last city, was still arguing with his Commander Wanda "Is this about strategy still?" Be serious, please. Charlie has been shown to be a shrewd operator, on par with Parson for a grasp of how to work the rules to his advantage. If Charlie can end a sides turn with no other cost than the hiring of a Turnamancer (something he does regularly, according to decrypted Archons), then Charlie should be the ruler of Erfworld. Charlescomm has a potent, highly mobile (they have always arrived on the turn they have been needed, in whatever numbers were necessary), flying, special enriched, army. As the facts have been presented to the reader, it's is very hard to make the case that this force, combined with Kingworld, would not be enough to seat Charlie as the Erfworld emperor.

multilis has it right, Kingwold makes it far too easy to grab poorly defended resources and deny your opponent any opportunity to counterattack until your side makes use of those resources and either moves on to something bigger and better or just knocks your side right out with a what Anson described as as "decapitation strike." If you still doubt, consider GK with Kingworld on top of their current forces. Now is it balanced and fair?
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby splintermute » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:44 am

multilis wrote:As soon as 1/3 of your army get into his hex, he ends your turn, slaughters them, then pulls his "big fat stack" out of range, and stays out of range till he has juice to end your turn again.

I don't think there's any way KingWorld could work like this. Time is relative from hex to hex (see summer updates) and units moving relative to other units have a distended time perception - crossing a hex boundary places you in a new time "zone". However KingWorld ends "time" at a single consensual perceptual timepoint that encompasses an entire side. Since inter-hex movement can appear simultaneous and/or instantaneous (which might account for the high-move archons' apparent ability to "teleport") to a fixed observer, if KingWorld were cast during a "movement" phase the results would be wildly unpredictable.

It's much more likely that KingWorld can only be cast at a perceptual timepoint at which none of the target side's units are in the process of moving between hexes - i.e. they may still have move left, but they're stationary pending further orders, such as waiting to engage in battle or waiting to respond to the outcome of a battle in another hex - the way GK was here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby JustDoug » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:51 am

Oberon wrote:The problem with this theory is that we have never been presented with even a hint that a sides turn can be divided up in this fashion. All we have seen is Turn Based Strategy Game mechanics, and none of those comply with any concept of a "fraction (quarter or whatever)" of a turn. A side has move for its units. It moves those it chooses to move, and then it ends turn. That's it.



You forgot about combat. In almost every TBS game I've played, particularly the sort that parallel the sort of "gameplay" we've seen in the story, combat between opposing chits/units is played as a sort of sub-turn; each attacking unit initiating combat gets its hitsies in against the defender, then the defender gets to have a go at the units that've attacked it. Even the simpler games, where combat is treated as simultaneous action between attacking and defending units, the side whose turn it is only has the advantage of initiating combat and perhaps getting first shot in, not that the defender has to wait for its side's turn to perform combat.

Your argument also ignores the events of the battle at Expository bridge. RCC's arrows got launched at Wanda's crew before that dragonflight got any hitsies in. GK might've initiated combat, but Ossomer's groups shot first. They didn't have to wait until their turn to do so.

Also keep in mind one of the earliest revealed rules: any uncommmanded unit enter into battle automatically when a non-aligned unit enters its hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:58 am

splintermute wrote:
multilis wrote:As soon as 1/3 of your army get into his hex, he ends your turn, slaughters them, then pulls his "big fat stack" out of range, and stays out of range till he has juice to end your turn again.

I don't think there's any way KingWorld could work like this. Time is relative from hex to hex (see summer updates) and units moving relative to other units have a distended time perception - crossing a hex boundary places you in a new time "zone". However KingWorld ends "time" at a single consensual perceptual timepoint that encompasses an entire side. Since inter-hex movement can appear simultaneous and/or instantaneous (which might account for the high-move archons' apparent ability to "teleport") to a fixed observer, if KingWorld were cast during a "movement" phase the results would be wildly unpredictable.

It's much more likely that KingWorld can only be cast at a perceptual timepoint at which none of the target side's units are in the process of moving between hexes - i.e. they may still have move left, but they're stationary pending further orders, such as waiting to engage in battle or waiting to respond to the outcome of a battle in another hex - the way GK was here.


What is this Kingworld that you speak of?

Anyway, ignoring that, I just wanted to comment on the relative-time thing.

As I understand it, the idea is this- sequence is kept, duration is not.

Sequence is kept means that if a unit sees event B happen after event A, then any unit that can see both events will also see B after A. "Can see" means there exists some memoryless mechanism (either seeing, thinkagram and so on) that can allow a unit to gain knowledge of the events. Memoryless means the mechanism does not withhold information*.

Duration is not kept means that these units may not agree on the time interval between these two events, as measured by some time-keeping device.

To cut a long story short, if your enemy, on their turn, moves their units in a sequence of events, you will also see them move in that sequence. If there is some way for you to insert an action at a point in that sequence, the insertion will make sense and be seen as the same insertion, after the same event, by anyone that can see it.

*: making this non-circular is a serious strain. Oh Hilbert where art thou.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Lamech » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:33 am

Oberon wrote:
Walter wrote:The power requirement that has been revealed already is rough, it takes 2 turns of Vanna's juice.
Er, no. What Vanna said was:
Jillian: "How's your juice?"
Vanna: "Low. That spell cost two turns' worth, basically."

Vanna never referenced her own juice beyond saying that it was "low", that it was two turns of Vanna's juice is your own addition, and it is speculative and without support. We have what appears to be mutually exclusive statements. A caster can not both spend an entire turns juice and continue to cast, much less two turns juice. Vanna also says that she has juice enough to attempt a ranged turn of a high level unit. What we have here is a statement which says that although Kingworld spent "basically" two turns juice in the casting, Vanna still has enough juice to be able to attempt to cast potent spells. In other words, we do not see a real cost for Kingworld, at all. And unless we see some limits to Charlie due to this casting, Kingworld will be a free spell. A cost without impact is not a cost.
Umm... yeah, see we don't know how much juice a caster can have at one time and how much they can recover per turn. So for example Vanna might be able to have three times as much juice as she gets per turn, so we know of absolutly no reason why the spell couldn't have used two turns of Vanna's juice. And we do have support that "two turns" reffered to Vanna's juice since it was in response to a question about her juice, and most people don't give answer questions with statements that don't matter; in fact we have nearly as much support for the "two turns" being from Vanna's own juice as "low" refering to Vanna's own juice.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:23 am

Lamech wrote:Umm... yeah, see we don't know how much juice a caster can have at one time and how much they can recover per turn. So for example Vanna might be able to have three times as much juice as she gets per turn, so we know of absolutly no reason why the spell couldn't have used two turns of Vanna's juice. And we do have support that "two turns" reffered to Vanna's juice since it was in response to a question about her juice, and most people don't give answer questions with statements that don't matter; in fact we have nearly as much support for the "two turns" being from Vanna's own juice as "low" refering to Vanna's own juice.


That may be stretching the argument a bit thin. After all can you prove that I am not a spambot that has developped a conscience (and consciousness)?

That casters have a set amount of juice, that replenishes fully once per turn like all other things, is a natural intuitive simple interpretation of Erfworld as we've seen it so far. I'm not going to go quote mining for WoT explicitly stating that juice replenishes fully once per turn (must be one of the klogs), but honestly I don't think I have to.

Unless WoT explicitly states that juice does NOT replenish fully once per turn, there's no reason to deviate from the natural intuitive simple interpretation.


Oberon wrote: {which webcomic embeds music?}


Oops, sorry I missed that question. MS Paint Adventures, lately.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Davre » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:54 am

Lamech wrote:
Oberon wrote:
Walter wrote:The power requirement that has been revealed already is rough, it takes 2 turns of Vanna's juice.
Er, no. What Vanna said was:
Jillian: "How's your juice?"
Vanna: "Low. That spell cost two turns' worth, basically."

Vanna never referenced her own juice beyond saying that it was "low", that it was two turns of Vanna's juice is your own addition, and it is speculative and without support. We have what appears to be mutually exclusive statements. A caster can not both spend an entire turns juice and continue to cast, much less two turns juice. Vanna also says that she has juice enough to attempt a ranged turn of a high level unit. What we have here is a statement which says that although Kingworld spent "basically" two turns juice in the casting, Vanna still has enough juice to be able to attempt to cast potent spells. In other words, we do not see a real cost for Kingworld, at all. And unless we see some limits to Charlie due to this casting, Kingworld will be a free spell. A cost without impact is not a cost.
Umm... yeah, see we don't know how much juice a caster can have at one time and how much they can recover per turn. So for example Vanna might be able to have three times as much juice as she gets per turn, so we know of absolutly no reason why the spell couldn't have used two turns of Vanna's juice. And we do have support that "two turns" reffered to Vanna's juice since it was in response to a question about her juice, and most people don't give answer questions with statements that don't matter; in fact we have nearly as much support for the "two turns" being from Vanna's own juice as "low" refering to Vanna's own juice.


Yes, it seems clear that when she answers Jillian's queries that she expects Jillian to understand the mechanics well enough to not have to explain them. Leaving aside various external arguments about the spell's costs and just sticking to what was said, what mechanics would fit her responses?

In the first place, whether the juice was all hers or came from the link, two turns about maxed her out. She just has a little bit left and these two bits of information must be linked or otherwise she's just babbling. So that leaves the disposition of the juice. Here's what I've got:

1) Casters can save up to about two turns of juice, in general. It might have other costs or prerequisites that Jillian would have been aware of, or it can be simple. I include this for completeness but I don't buy it.
2) Turnamancers can get more out a city's production by reducing the number of turns for something to pop. Maybe they can do the same for juice, so she used her Turnamancy to double her allotment of juice this turn.
3) Some of the juice came from her, and some from the link. She used up almost all of hers but has a bit left. This seems the most straightforward.

-----------------------------------------------

Now, going off in a slightly different, and more speculative, direction, but still concerning the spell's costs:

In the last text update, Charlie sounded stressed to Jillian at the end of the conversation. Presumably this was due to whatever had just come up. (I don't buy the idea that he was trying to get her off the line). However, people have pointed out that Charlie had never seemed to get stressed out before. So the event could be a particularly alarming one for him, or maybe the event was not exceptional in itself but that his overall situation was very attenuated.

What I'm getting at is that perhaps the link up had been very difficult and straining for Charlie (and maybe very expensive in other ways) and it was only being worn down like that which kept him from keeping his cool as he usually does. Of course, Jillian changing plans on him and leaving Wanda and the pliers behind probably didn't help.

-----------------------------------------------

This one's not about the costs of the spell, but how it might fit within the story. I'm not sure if it's an entirely original idea, because the discussion has been pretty far-ranging, but I don't remember seeing it put like this.

Assumptions:

1) Parson is the protagonist and the world (or game) is focused around him to some extent.
2) The game is broken to the extent that it requires extreme lateral thinking to 'win' or perhaps even to survive.
3) Such lateral thinking is only actually useful because the game is complex enough and is broken enough for Parson to find the exploitable mechanics.

The Zombie Volcano is an example of Parson's lateral thinking breaking the game but Kingworld is the game turning the screws again. Admittedly, Wanda and the pliers don't quite fit here, but I guess the game can be randomly broken as well.

No characters in the game so far, save those that were privy to the plan before hand, have given any indication that they knew such a thing was possible. I think it's either entirely new, or arcane enough to be considered as such. So the reason that Charlie hasn't taken over the world yet is because this is new and not for any other reason.

The reason that Charlie won't take over the world in the future is Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby splintermute » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:26 am

Another possible logical interpretation of Vanna's "two turn's worth of juice" is that casters get an allotment of juice each turn, and can either spend it, as most do on spells and scroll/item/trap-making, or stockpile it to cast more powerful spells later. The constraint is that they have to go multiple turns without casting in order to set off a "mega-spell."

As a counterexample, with all the demands on Maggie, you can see how difficult it must be for her to conserve any juice. Perhaps the dish and pliers give their owners limitless juice reserves.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Ditto » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:43 am

We have what appears to be mutually exclusive statements. A caster can not both spend an entire turns juice and continue to cast, much less two turns juice. Vanna also says that she has juice enough to attempt a ranged turn of a high level unit. What we have here is a statement which says that although Kingworld spent "basically" two turns juice in the casting, Vanna still has enough juice to be able to attempt to cast potent spells. In other words, we do not see a real cost for Kingworld, at all. And unless we see some limits to Charlie due to this casting, Kingworld will be a free spell. A cost without impact is not a cost.[


Part of the turnamancy powers as formulated on the wiki is the ability to save up juice from turn to turn. That's how they's speed up unit production - by turning their juice into 'building time' which they 'donate' to other units. If an heir takes 3 turns to make, the turnamancer spends all her juice from one turn and 'gives' it to the heir-in-process for a total time of 2 turns now. Saving juice turn-to-turn for spells would be like metamagic in D&D. If you know 3rd level spells max, you can't add quicken (+4) to a 3rd level spell because you don't have 7th level slots. The link-up with Charlie (same as the Soul Splice in OOTS) can grant temporary higher spell slots. Normally Vanna wouldn't have been able to cast a spell that took 2 turns of juice, even if she had it available. There's nothing saying she didn't have 8 turns of juice saved up. She has better things she could be doing with that juice, like speeding unit prodcution.

Also, turning enemy units is a potent effect just on its own - but you have to be able to extricate that unit from his comrades after you turn it. Taking the turnamancer to the battlefield is dangerous for the caster (Jack was nearly pincushioned to death!), and dangerous for the newly-turned unit who is surrounded by now-hostile former-buddies. Again, turnamancers have better uses for their juice than turning individual units in the middle of an army in most cases. Pulling Ansom out is a big exception to this strategy.

The cost to Charlie is his attention. As we saw with the eyemancer link-up in book one, dealing with linked casters outside of their primary purpose/speciality can be damaging. This is confirmed with Charlie mind-flicking King Slately when he tried to badger Vanna during the text update. Charlie maintaining the link-up presumably drains his focus and abilities to be Mr. Telecom for that duration.
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby gazes_also » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:36 am

Oberon wrote:
Walter wrote:The power requirement that has been revealed already is rough, it takes 2 turns of Vanna's juice.
Er, no. What Vanna said was:
Jillian: "How's your juice?"
Vanna: "Low. That spell cost two turns' worth, basically."

Vanna never referenced her own juice beyond saying that it was "low", that it was two turns of Vanna's juice is your own addition, and it is speculative and without support. We have what appears to be mutually exclusive statements. A caster can not both spend an entire turns juice and continue to cast, much less two turns juice. Vanna also says that she has juice enough to attempt a ranged turn of a high level unit. What we have here is a statement which says that although Kingworld spent "basically" two turns juice in the casting, Vanna still has enough juice to be able to attempt to cast potent spells. In other words, we do not see a real cost for Kingworld, at all. And unless we see some limits to Charlie due to this casting, Kingworld will be a free spell. A cost without impact is not a cost.


That is a bizarre parsing of that exchange.

Jillian asks "How's YOUR juice?" wanting to know how much Vanna had left for further action.
To interpret the reply as "Low.".. as a specific reply to the question regarding Vanna, and then
"...That spell cost two turns worth, basically" as meaning the juice used in general, is nonsensical.

That both sentences in the reply relate to the question asked is the only way to interpret it in the English I know.

How would Vanna know how much juice Charlie used, relative to how much he has available anyway?
Vanna answered for herself and for herself alone - and if that means that a turnamancer can store juice from turn to turn, so be it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby splintermute » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:47 am

Ditto wrote:The cost to Charlie is his attention. As we saw with the eyemancer link-up in book one, dealing with linked casters outside of their primary purpose/speciality can be damaging. This is confirmed with Charlie mind-flicking King Slately when he tried to badger Vanna during the text update. Charlie maintaining the link-up presumably drains his focus and abilities to be Mr. Telecom for that duration.

I'm not sure the effect was that deleterious on Charlie. It was strongly implied that Vanna had been linked for multiple turns - in the updates, on the journey from Faq, she was silent, and Jillian referred to her only as "caster" - during which time, presumably, Charlie was able to function, although maybe only at a sub-optimal level.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby build6 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:26 pm

I dunno if anyone has said this before, but ... does it seem to you that of all the Erfworld characters, Jillian's basically the most "human"? She's not interested in the role the "world" has laid out for her and basically doesn't even try to fit in. She does what she does "for love" and doesn't calculate costs/benefits the way Slately does, say (and even Stanley - he's no good at it, but he certainly does calculate it).

Parson and Jillian would be a good match, she can't plan and he can't fight :-P
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