Book 2 – Page 24

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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Dances-with-Marbits » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:31 pm

I feel I should point out about Kingworld/Timewarp that since their turn started, all of their units' would be restored, meaning that Vanna's juice would be restored. It's entirely plausible that the spell drained her juice from the first turn, started their turn, then drained it again, resulting is "two turns worth of juice" being expended, without having to have a storage capacity for juice built in.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Ditto » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:49 pm

@splintermute: I'm not saying it would be to the level of your run-of-the-mill thinkamancer. Clearly, he can function beyond the link and already you can see the dish's niftiness because the link-up is supported at great range. But if a botched link-up can KILL you from frying the brain of one party, clearly the link-up is no trifling business even with an artifact in hand.

@Dances-with-Marbits: To use D&D terms, consider it an Immediate action. Same slot as a swift action, taking basically no effort at all and can be used once per round(/day), but may be used out of turn. So perhaps recharging your daily juice is the first thing each caster does at the beginning of every turn as a swift action - but the turnamancer's already blown her recharge action.

Or, for a less complicated idea, maybe juice is replenished in the order of your natural turn, no matter who you are allied with, so her ticker reset at dawn like Faq units normally do.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Lamech » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:54 pm

Dances-with-Marbits wrote:I feel I should point out about Kingworld/Timewarp that since their turn started, all of their units' would be restored, meaning that Vanna's juice would be restored. It's entirely plausible that the spell drained her juice from the first turn, started their turn, then drained it again, resulting is "two turns worth of juice" being expended, without having to have a storage capacity for juice built in.
That makes a lot of sense actually...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby raphfrk » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:33 pm

splintermute wrote:As a counterexample, with all the demands on Maggie, you can see how difficult it must be for her to conserve any juice. Perhaps the dish and pliers give their owners limitless juice reserves.


Also, Bunny spends any excess juice talking to Caesar every night. This suggest that any juice you have at the end of the day is wasted.

It is possible that turnamancers are special in that way. Maybe they can combine juice from multiple turns.

Dances-with-Marbits wrote:I feel I should point out about Kingworld/Timewarp that since their turn started, all of their units' would be restored, meaning that Vanna's juice would be restored. It's entirely plausible that the spell drained her juice from the first turn, started their turn, then drained it again, resulting is "two turns worth of juice" being expended, without having to have a storage capacity for juice built in.


Interesting. That could also be a restriction on the spell. You can only cast it if your turn is next.

Alternatively, if you cast it, you don't get a refresh at the start of your next turn. If she was at 100% juice, the spell might cost 80% and also prevent the refresh. Thus, it effectively costs 180% of a turn's worth of juice.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Roketter » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Parson should get back in command right now while they still have time. He could smooth talk Haggar to aid them and save the day by offering them a place in their grand scheme, along with the capital of Jetstone. He's the only one smart enough with access to a thinkamancer in their faction.

If Haggar broke the alliance they could get their turn back and leave Jetstone defenseless? It would upset the balance and force Jetstone and Jillian to go back to the defensive while it's still their turn. What point would there be in turning Ansom or coaking Wanda if they are going to get crushed on the next turn by Haggar ? (Turning Ansom could be important for Jillian since she could probably escape with him leaving everyone else to burn, but no way she's going to get Trammenis go with it)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Lothmar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:54 pm

- - I know this is kind of out of nowhere... But why are they attacking tables in Panel 7 on the right side?
Is it cause the enemy was originally advancing (before it was revealed as a veil of course) in bookshelves and they figured GK was aligned with all carpentry forces? xD
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Dances-with-Marbits » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:02 pm

Lothmar wrote:- - I know this is kind of out of nowhere... But why are they attacking tables in Panel 7 on the right side?
Is it cause the enemy was originally advancing (before it was revealed as a veil of course) in bookshelves and they figured GK was aligned with all carpentry forces? xD

Looks more like they're fabricating or maintaining weapons, and assuming weapons have upkeep like everything else on Erf, I'm leaning toward the former.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby JustDoug » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:04 pm

raphfrk wrote:
splintermute wrote:As a counterexample, with all the demands on Maggie, you can see how difficult it must be for her to conserve any juice. Perhaps the dish and pliers give their owners limitless juice reserves.


Also, Bunny spends any excess juice talking to Caesar every night. This suggest that any juice you have at the end of the day is wasted.

It is possible that turnamancers are special in that way. Maybe they can combine juice from multiple turns.

Dances-with-Marbits wrote:I feel I should point out about Kingworld/Timewarp that since their turn started, all of their units' would be restored, meaning that Vanna's juice would be restored. It's entirely plausible that the spell drained her juice from the first turn, started their turn, then drained it again, resulting is "two turns worth of juice" being expended, without having to have a storage capacity for juice built in.


Interesting. That could also be a restriction on the spell. You can only cast it if your turn is next.

Alternatively, if you cast it, you don't get a refresh at the start of your next turn. If she was at 100% juice, the spell might cost 80% and also prevent the refresh. Thus, it effectively costs 180% of a turn's worth of juice.


I think people are overthinking this. It could be something as simple as the caster link allowing two turns worth of juice to be used in a single spell, the link from Charlie (and possibly another caster if it was a trimancer link) supplying the additional juice, with Vanna having to supply only a most of her own. It reads to me that the amount of juice necessary to cast Kingsworld would take all the juice Vanna can muster her first turn, then almost all of it after "refilling" at the start of the next, to cast that particular spell. She normally wouldn't be able to cast it at all by herself, which both makes the link necessary and provides the "balance" many have complained about.

If a person can only lift a 120 pounds, it takes two lifts to move two 100 pound loads, but with the help of another both can be moved in a single lift. If the load itself is 200 pounds...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby DevilDan » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:18 pm

"Norp" is also a reference to "porn" according to the less-than-redoubtable Urban Dictionary.

Who is emitting it? I think it's likelier that it's warning signals from Jetstone sentries.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:37 pm

DevilDan wrote:"Norp" is also a reference to "porn" according to the less-than-redoubtable Urban Dictionary.
Who is emitting it? I think it's likelier that it's warning signals from Jetstone sentries.


The megalogwiffins are 'chirping' it, I thought. I read 'NORP' as "NO Role-Play", the standard shout on MMORPG's to shut up and fight. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Reclaimer » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:04 pm

multilis wrote:"A big alliance has trouble with Goblin Keep but Charlie can take it out with 30 archons. He has 600.


Way to discount the leadership bonuses they got from RCC's warlords in the hex. Also keep in mind that GK's army at the time was a bunch of extremely weak uncroaked, with most of the higher level dudes cherry-picked by Stanley to escort him the heck out of there, and that Wanda had fired off nearly all the static air defenses as a big screw you to Jillian. They had nothing to block the fliers with.

Without Warlords, they have no multipliers. As flying units, they're weak against archers. They don't seem particularly tough when directly attacked. He's got 600 very sharp paper dolls. Archers? They're cheap. Throw in a couple warlords, and put them in garrison. He can end your turn all you like but when he attacks, a two-sided battle still takes place within the hex. You lose some cheap archer units, he loses units that pop fairly slowly and have a high upkeep cost.

Stack multipliers, mop them up. They're neat support units but without any sort of main force for them to screen themselves with they're easy meat for most mixed armies. This is probably why we've never seen him actually attack without an active alliance with forces in the area (Which would mean they got those juicy multipliers).

Oberon wrote:Charlie is NOT Stanley.


Charlie is a non-Royal whose only claim to power is an Arkentool. If he began a campaign of conquest, I can't imagine the Royals reacting any differently than they did to Stanley. I wasn't trying to imply that they were, as characters, leaders, or tacticians, particularly similar.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby splintermute » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:29 pm

Reclaimer wrote:
multilis wrote:"A big alliance has trouble with Goblin Keep but Charlie can take it out with 30 archons. He has 600.


Way to discount the leadership bonuses they got from RCC's warlords in the hex.

Those 30 archons weren't allied with the RCC at the time - Charlie asked for that calculation after he'd un-allied with the RCC to ostensibly go after Stanley - which means they wouldn't have gotten any RCC warlord bonuses. The archons could have taken GK on their own. Also, some subset of archons has foolamancy, which would likely be an effective defense against archers (and would have worked against Jetstone if they hadn't had particularly observant warlords).

Archons are totally OP - but I'm OK with that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby multilis » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:06 am

splintermute wrote:
Reclaimer wrote:
multilis wrote:"A big alliance has trouble with Goblin Keep but Charlie can take it out with 30 archons. He has 600.


Way to discount the leadership bonuses they got from RCC's warlords in the hex.

Those 30 archons weren't allied with the RCC at the time - Charlie asked for that calculation after he'd un-allied with the RCC to ostensibly go after Stanley - which means they wouldn't have gotten any RCC warlord bonuses. The archons could have taken GK on their own. Also, some subset of archons has foolamancy, which would likely be an effective defense against archers (and would have worked against Jetstone if they hadn't had particularly observant warlords).

Archons are totally OP - but I'm OK with that.

IMO Archons are *not* totally OP, seen similar in regular games. Sound like roughly same class as Dwagons and Megagryphs, their downsides are probably low hitpoints and high upkeep. (ie Stanley with hundreds of dwagons would also be very dangerous)

What I haven't seen is magic bullets like GK volcano or end enemies turn. Closest tricks i have seen is spells that have chance to kill a single high level hero, spells that weaken every unit or enemy on a battlefield or hex (which if repeated may slaughter large armies) and units that are immune to normal low level attacks that can slaughter certain types of armies with no risk (eg physical immunity or fliers with ranged weapons, only can be hurt with magic/fire/ranged/etc weapons).

There is sometimes a single automatically win game type spell or activity that costs a huge fortune/many turns. Eg getting 2/3 vote as supreme ruler by other kingdoms, setting up colony on other planet, casting super expensive "Mastery" spell.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Faenir » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:14 am

I don't know if anyone has posted this (red only three pages of discussion), but Jillian is probably trying to pull something great out of this.

Some have pointed out the (obvious) fact that she is trying to support Jetstone while preserving Ansom and Wanda, two units which could be useful to her in the long run. Well, what if it doesn't need to wait long?

If the allied forces DO beat Ansom's column, they'll be able to capture Wanda, Ansom and Jack to a side, presumably Faq. Well, some of you may say Wanda could escape from air since Faq and Jetstone don't have a flying force strong enough to stop her. I can respect that line of thought, but last text update hinted Charlie's Archons might get involved in this mix, I don't know at what cost.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Reclaimer » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:22 am

splintermute wrote:Those 30 archons weren't allied with the RCC at the time


Yeah, but they were renegotiating the contract. He only priced himself out of their budget AFTER getting that prediction. And again, GK had no flying units or air defenses. I think Jillian and her Scooty Puff Jr. could've taken the tower at that point, if RCC hadn't sent her and almost all their fliers after GK's.

splintermute wrote:(and would have worked against Jetstone if they hadn't had particularly observant warlords).


That's pretty much my point. Any army besides CharlesComm's has warlords and casters, and these are things that would make an archer stack more than just an archer stack.

Faenir wrote:Some have pointed out the (obvious) fact that she is trying to support Jetstone while preserving Ansom and Wanda, two units which could be useful to her in the long run. Well, what if it doesn't need to wait long?


I imagine Stanley could disband her if she was in danger of being captured, since he's still alive and actively monitoring the situation. The question is, would he?

Yeah.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Faenir » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:33 am

Being disbanded = getting croaked?

Then Wanda could just turn rather than getting disbanded?

Because if she can and things turn out to go just the way I mentioned last post, that would be a win for all of them - Faq, Jetstone, Transylvito, Charlie - while maintaning Ansom, Wanda and Jack. Seems like the way to go and the most smart choice to take if you are Jillian. Bet that would make readers respect her a lot more, too.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Reclaimer » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:37 am

Faenir wrote:Then Wanda could just turn rather than getting disbanded?


She had that option. She said boop that. It's not her turn anymore.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Oberon » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:32 am

gazes_also wrote:That is a bizarre parsing of that exchange.

Jillian asks "How's YOUR juice?" wanting to know how much Vanna had left for further action.
To interpret the reply as "Low.".. as a specific reply to the question regarding Vanna, and then
"...That spell cost two turns worth, basically" as meaning the juice used in general, is nonsensical.

That both sentences in the reply relate to the question asked is the only way to interpret it in the English I know.
Not so bizarre, if you're not ignoring the fact that things changed for Vanna. While casting Kingworld, she was linked with Charlie. After casting it, during her conversation with Jillian, she was not. Her description of the juice used and her own juice remaining spans those two states, and so it's not at all odd for her to be speaking from both perspectives.
gazes_also wrote:How would Vanna know how much juice Charlie used, relative to how much he has available anyway?
Because she was in an intimate link with Charlie, where personalities merge and you become your function?
gazes_also wrote:Vanna answered for herself and for herself alone - and if that means that a turnamancer can store juice from turn to turn, so be it.
No. Vanna answered for herself and Charlie when stating the juice used. They were linked at that time. And then for herself, when stating how much juice she had left.

Reclaimer wrote:Without Warlords, they have no multipliers.
You're forgetting that Archons can do just about anything. Some of them have Leadership, and thus give the same bonus as having Warlords. It's sweet to be on the side with everything, isn't it?
Reclaimer wrote:As flying units, they're weak against archers.
No. As fliers, they are able to be attacked by archers. That is a "weakness" every other unit has as well. It's just that Archons aren't able to be attacked by non-fliers (unless the Archons initiate the combat). This is a strength, not a weakness.
Reclaimer wrote:Stack multipliers, mop them up.
LOL! It's the Archons who stack up the multipliers, without even needing unit diversity. They have Leadership, Foolamancy, Dance-Fighting, Dollamancy, Shockmancy, Thinkamancy, flight, and that's just what we have seen or been told by the Archons themselves.
Reclaimer wrote:They're neat support units but without any sort of main force for them to screen themselves with they're easy meat for most mixed armies.
This is pure speculation, and flies in the face of Charlie's force structure. And as I have detailed above, the Archons are by themselves a "mixed force", bringing their own force multipliers to the table. The Archons are Charlie's sole unit with which to advance his agenda. The rest appear to be purely defensive in nature, and stay put to guard his city. If they required other units to be effective, it would be very hard to rent them out as mercenaries. "Hey, I've got these great Archons to rent to you. But, um, they kinda suck by themselves. You'll have to send enough force with them to make sure they get the job done." That wouldn't exactly inspire confidence in the buyer, would it? No, it would not. Instead it's like this: ""Hey, I've got these great Archons to rent to you. Rent enough of them and they just keep racking up the force multipliers, with Leadership, Dance Fighting, etc, etc. They are completely capable of getting the job done, whatever that job might be."

And if you're still doubtful, remember that Charlie was going to take out the GK garrison, which had Parson, three casters, a mixed force structure of units, and plenty of multipliers of its own, with a force comprised of, you guessed it, just Archons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Reclaimer » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:21 am

Oberon wrote:remember that Charlie was going to take out the GK garrison, which had Parson, three casters, a mixed force structure of units, and plenty of multipliers of its own, with a force comprised of, you guessed it, just Archons.


No, he was never "going to"; he asked if he could. And I'm pretty sure the calculator would've factored in that the walls were about to be gleefully beaten down anyways by a coalition of the willing. You probably shouldn't judge their power level based on whether thirty of them could defeat a level 2 warlord leading a stack of three casters who'd just spent an entire turn casting a pretty amazing amount of spells.

They're not stand-alone casters like you seem to be implying, even if they do have a few tricks between them. And they are pretty easy to kill. I haven't seen you address the fact that an arrow or two seems to pretty much dissolve them. They might not be "weak" against archers, but they sure ain't immune to them. And an army of archers would be cheaper to build and buff than an army of flying units. If all you're fighting is fliers, you're not going to be popping a bunch of pikers.
Last edited by Reclaimer on Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 24

Postby Evil Jedi » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:19 am

I haven't read all of the posts about theories for why the Kingsworld spell "basically cost two turns" worth of juice, but Vanna still has a little bit of juice left. I don't know if anyone has proposed this idea yet, but here it goes.

I think that the spell, which is so difficult to cast you need to be linked to a Thinkamancer (presumably Charlie and the Arken Dish) to do it, would cost all of your juice for that turn and the juice for your next one. Because you're basically depriving your enemy of a turn, and jumping yourself ahead a turn. It makes me think about the update when Parson and Sizemore were talking about their perceptions of time. It seems balanced that to get a jump on your turn, it would cost you juice that you would be gaining on that turn (because if you could do it again that would be broken). Now about Vanna still having juice.

This is a completely made up idea and I have no way of supporting it, except I think it sounds good. From what we've seen of a Turnamancer's abilities, they increase productivity of cities. A city managed by a Turnamancer has a greater output than it normally would (Charlie getting 3 Archons every two turns instead of 1 a turn, increased production of FAQ described in one of the text updates). So my theory is that part of a Turnamancer's natural ability is that they are more efficient at gaining juice when their turn starts. Basically what I'm thinking is that Turnamancer's start with more than 100% of their daily amount of juice, because they are Turnamancers. So the Thinkamancer that made the link that cast the spell would start the turn with no juice, but the Turnamancer gets to start with a little bit of juice.

Anyway, that's my theory.
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