Book 2 – Page 24

[haviel]

Great update. I've had alot of fun so far, but I have a bone to pick now.... :/

The grueling pace of the storytelling; both the amount of updates per week, and the low amount of information in the story.

It's starting to become tedious, I really want to keep caring about the story, but the sheer amount of time between updates makes me lapse into apathy.

I remember when Rob said "Hey, Since we can't keep the pace going with the Comic Itself, lets just slow down the update of the comic and add a text update." Great idea, plus it gives those who loved the texts updates something to be happy about. But now there's another problem. You have to have one image made for every text update, which (I think, though I'm uncertain) slows down the pace of the updates.

I guess I'm proposing that Rob skip the Images with each update (Not that they're bad, they're in face awesome!) But I'd rather have two text updates a week plus a comic, then one text update with a picture and one comic a week. Even if I'm wrong about the text update image slowing down the text updates, I'd be overjoyed with another text update, with or without a image.

I have no complaints about the story itself though. I really feel like people who complain that Erfwords Battle Machanic is Broken don't realize that Erfworld isn't a Game, Its a Game like Reality. Meaning its laws can be exploited without interest of fairness. Is it fair that we can split an atom and use that reaction to get enormous Energy? If our Reality were literally a Game of some kind, don't you think that atom splitting would be removed for Balancing issues?

[BLANDCorporatio]

I have no complaints about the story itself though. I really feel like people who complain that Erfwords Battle Machanic is Broken don't realize that Erfworld isn't a Game, Its a Game like Reality. Meaning its laws can be exploited without interest of fairness. Is it fair that we can split an atom and use that reaction to get enormous Energy? If our Reality were literally a Game of some kind, don't you think that atom splitting would be removed for Balancing issues?

Jesus tapdancing Christ.

Just what/who are you referring to? Several/most of the vocal critics of the story lately (including yours truly) have been critical precisely for story reasons and not any game-play nonsense.

It is not about fairness.

It's about having meaningful, earned plot developments that fit into some coherent picture of the world.

Note, I do not wish to go into that argument. AGAIN.

But if you do refer to it, please at least refer to it fairly.

[Oberon]

I don't see why everyone thinks that the decrypted will turn to dust with out their croakamancer. They were made by the pliers, which will keep on existing. They seem to be nothing but, super uncroaked, and I don't think that uncroaked disappear with out the croakamancer.

Not everyone thinks so, but it is clearly a reasonable possibility, as evidenced by Trammenis stating as such. Parson also obviously thinks that with Wanda, so go the decrypted. We have never seen what happens to an uncroaked unit if the croakamancer dies, but it's a fair guess that they disband, and that this is the basis for the supposition that the decrypted will also disband if the wielder of the 'Pliers who decrypted them dies. The circumstances are slightly different, and never before experienced, which is why even Erf residents are not certain.

But whether or not the supposition is correct, smart money is still on croaking Wanda to find out. If you're right, you've killed a master class caster, stolen an Arkentool, wiped out a lot of Dwagons and Archons, and disbanded what must be a majority of the GK forces save perhaps Dwagons, and disproved the Titanic mandate of Toolism. If you're wrong, you've killed a master class caster, stolen an Arkentool, wiped out a lot of Dwagons and Archons, and disproved the Titanic mandate of Toolism. It's kind of a win-win, especially when you consider that the column is meat the turn after their air cover is wiped out. Which is what Trammenus is trying to convey. Jillian is more than aware, but has motivations she isn't communicating to anyone, be they Charlie or Trammenis or Wanda or Slately or Don King.

My hope:
Jillian turns Ansom. He joins her side, rejoicing. They embrace. He turns to dust. Que one of the "Jillian BSOD" or the "Jillian rampage" theme songs.

I think the problem here is that we all think we know what Jillian is thinking, but it seems to me her intentions are being kept intentionally obtuse.

Only because she herself is, typically, rather making it up as she goes. She told both Slately and Charlie that she would be croaking the GK airforce. But once it contained Wanda, that went out the door, along with a fairly severe blow to her credibility as an ally. Jillian has survived as a mercenary since FAQ fell, and to do so you need to maintain a solid credibility as an ally. Even though she is no longer a mercenary, the damage this causes to her reputation can not be lost on her.

Trust and loyalty (or the lack thereof...) are emerging as major themes here in Book 2. I've been very surprised by Jillian's behavior so far, this is a side of her I don't think we've seen before. For example, did she call Wanda in to parlay as part of legitimate diplomatic effort, or just to trick her into dividing her force? Or both? There's no way to be sure.

I don't think the did divide her forces. Mechanically speaking. Check out the last image of Wanda in Page 23. Wanda is surrounded by her air force, with Ossomer right next to her on Ansom's carpet (the first reassignment of items between units on the same side we've seen since the scrolls, btw).

Near as I can tell, there are great many possibilities as to why Jillian would not want to attack Wanda even though it's the strategically smartest thing to do:

1. Because she legitimately has feelings for Wanda.

This. Jillian says as much, and all their history supports it. She cares for Wanda, and has enjoyed their BDSM play, but she has since become a Queen. And Queens must rule all of their units, not play submissive to even one. To do so undermines authority to all the rest.

[gazes_also]

Great update. I've had alot of fun so far, but I have a bone to pick now.... :/

The grueling pace of the storytelling; both the amount of updates per week, and the low amount of information in the story.

It's starting to become tedious, I really want to keep caring about the story, but the sheer amount of time between updates makes me lapse into apathy.

I remember when Rob said "Hey, Since we can't keep the pace going with the Comic Itself, lets just slow down the update of the comic and add a text update." Great idea, plus it gives those who loved the texts updates something to be happy about. But now there's another problem. You have to have one image made for every text update, which (I think, though I'm uncertain) slows down the pace of the updates.

I guess I'm proposing that Rob skip the Images with each update (Not that they're bad, they're in face awesome!) But I'd rather have two text updates a week plus a comic, then one text update with a picture and one comic a week. Even if I'm wrong about the text update image slowing down the text updates, I'd be overjoyed with another text update, with or without a image.

I have no complaints about the story itself though. I really feel like people who complain that Erfwords Battle Machanic is Broken don't realize that Erfworld isn't a Game, Its a Game like Reality. Meaning its laws can be exploited without interest of fairness. Is it fair that we can split an atom and use that reaction to get enormous Energy? If our Reality were literally a Game of some kind, don't you think that atom splitting would be removed for Balancing issues?

How many webcomics have you read? There are B&W 3-4 panel strips that can't keep up the pace at which Rob and Xin produce a full colour 12 panel pages plus text updates. These guys are outstanding.

I also agree with Bland that the criticisms of the story lately (at least the well argued ones) have been primarily about plot-mechanics, not game-mechanics (and that may be the only thing I agree with Bland on).

[BLANDCorporatio]

My hope:
Jillian turns Ansom. He joins her side, rejoicing. They embrace. He turns to dust. Que one of the "Jillian BSOD" or the "Jillian rampage" theme songs.

Whose idea was that originally?

Yeah that would be ... interesting. Too bad this particular comic does not have music embedded in itself, unlike a certain other one.

Only because she herself is, typically, rather making it up as she goes. She told both Slately and Charlie that she would be croaking the GK airforce. But once it contained Wanda, that went out the door, along with a fairly severe blow to her credibility as an ally. Jillian has survived as a mercenary since FAQ fell, and to do so you need to maintain a solid credibility as an ally. Even though she is no longer a mercenary, the damage this causes to her reputation can not be lost on her.

Agreed. It was one of the reasons that I thought Jillian's offer was a trick, surely she would not risk her reputation, given her mercenary background. Yeah that sounds kinda odd now as I write it, but as a mercenary you don't have to be honourable- just reliable (for some value of reliable).

She cares for Wanda, and has enjoyed their BDSM play, but she has since become a Queen. And Queens must rule all of their units, not play submissive to even one. To do so undermines authority to all the rest.

Well, there was that Vanna not knowing how to play business ...

(and that may be the only thing I agree with Bland on).

Thank you.

[Ansan Gotti]

My hope:
Jillian turns Ansom. He joins her side, rejoicing. They embrace. He turns to dust. Que one of the "Jillian BSOD" or the "Jillian rampage" theme songs.

Whose idea was that originally?

Mine, unless someone can claim prior ownership.

[Joe Falco]

Mine, unless someone can claim prior ownership.

If that's what Rob goes with in the comic, it would be his idea then.

[Oberon]

Great update. I've had alot of fun so far, but I have a bone to pick now.... :/

The grueling pace of the storytelling; both the amount of updates per week, and the low amount of information in the story.

It's starting to become tedious, I really want to keep caring about the story, but the sheer amount of time between updates makes me lapse into apathy.

How many webcomics have you read? There are B&W 3-4 panel strips that can't keep up the pace at which Rob and Xin produce a full colour 12 panel pages plus text updates. These guys are outstanding.

Yeah! Just look at Hampstard, it was last update in 2006. 2006!!!1!!!

In case there is any doubt at all, that was a joke. I have no issue with the pace of the updates. To any who do, think about maintaining whatever job supports you, and also self-electing to set the pace on a hobby that you hope may turn into an income, but hasn't yet (to my knowledge, at least). There is a ferocious amount of discipline at work here, folks. Not to mention allowing their own bought-and-paid-for bandwidth to be used to criticize those efforts, and the respect for the fan base that it must take to not go on mass banhammer (pun intended) rampages. Of me, at the very least. I gripe over major points that bug me (DDR, Kingworld, I'm looking at you), and yet I keep coming back to check out Erfworld. It's just far easier to gripe over perceived issues, because being a good read and having good art is just taken for granted as the bare minimum to keep the attention.

My hope:
Jillian turns Ansom. He joins her side, rejoicing. They embrace. He turns to dust. Que one of the "Jillian BSOD" or the "Jillian rampage" theme songs.

Whose idea was that originally?

Yeah that would be ... interesting. Too bad this particular comic does not have music embedded in itself, unlike a certain other one.

Did I swipe someone else's idea? If so, I have not read it and it was an honest duplication of thought on my part. But please do credit the original poster of the idea.

What comic embeds music?

[Reclaimer]

Kingworld

KINGWORLD!

Who didn't imagine Pat Sajak yelling that when she cast the spell? Look, it's stupid crap like that which will keep me coming out. The small touches. Don't gripe over the big stuff, because ultimately the plot moves on, evolves, and adapts. I'm pretty sure I've caught a few hints that the forum is indeed being monitored (Vanna explaining exactly how she pulled that INSANE trick off, to provide one single example), so our griping does garner attention. It's completely game-breaking, yeah, but I'll admit my face looked about exactly like Wanda's when that happened. And succeeded.

Tell me yours didn't.

This comic isn't about Warhammer, it's about a game-like reality (credit to haviel there). The rules are completely broken. But they're pretty hilarious. If you find yourself starting to take this thing seriously, then you are probably a Lit major and have better things to do than be reading a comic. Devote more time to appreciating the small twists and turns of phrase and having a good laugh than deconstructing the story.

Ever play Munchkin? Ever lose Munchkin? Ever lose Munchkin and punch your friend in the jaw?

I bet you did, you sinner.

[Dances-with-Marbits]

heeheehee...



Munchkin.

[Ansan Gotti]

Mine, unless someone can claim prior ownership.

If that's what Rob goes with in the comic, it would be his idea then.

Umm... well, yeah. Isn't that obvious?

Thanks for the eyeroll, though!

[Oberon]

Look, it's stupid crap like that which will keep me coming out. The small touches. Don't gripe over the big stuff, because ultimately the plot moves on, evolves, and adapts.

We have opposite views entirely. I don't sweat the small stuff, because it isn't important to the story nor does it cause outbreaks of Fridge Logic that suspend disbelief. I do object to large disruptions in what is otherwise a good plot and a good story, and do create large amounts of Fridge Logic. (CLick the links in order to get the entire point being made)

I'm pretty sure I've caught a few hints that the forum is indeed being monitored (Vanna explaining exactly how she pulled that INSANE trick off, to provide one single example), so our griping does garner attention.

I must have missed Vanna explaining all the details necessary to let the readers know that there is some logical reason why Charlie doesn't rule over a unified Erfworld. Not by a long shot.

This comic isn't about Warhammer, it's about a game-like reality (credit to haviel there). The rules are completely broken. But they're pretty hilarious. If you find yourself starting to take this thing seriously, then you are probably a Lit major and have better things to do than be reading a comic.

You contradict yourself. Warhammer is where completely broken rules live. Which is why I don't play it. I do enjoy a lot of literature, but only that with enough internal consistency to allow for the suspension of disbelief. In other words, even in a rather zany setting such as Erfworld, if I can't take it seriously to a certain degree, I won't be reading it. The humorous elements are a part of the charm, but the story also needs to be believable.

[BLANDCorporatio]

This comic isn't about Warhammer, it's about a game-like reality (credit to haviel there). The rules are completely broken.

Jes-

Aww, forget it.

Incidentally yeah I played Munchkin, eventually getting to level 9. It is hilarious how the game changes from let's help the combatting guy (lower level) to let's hinder them as much as possible once somebody approaches level 10*.

*: there's Epic Munchkin too, but I haven't played that.

We have opposite views entirely. I don't sweat the small stuff, because it isn't important to the story nor does it cause outbreaks of Fridge Logic that suspend disbelief. I do object to large disruptions in what is otherwise a good plot and a good story, and do create large amounts of Fridge Logic.

And we have views that are in agreement.

Just a recommendation though- linking to tvtropes is frowned upon here. Stumble there and you can kiss your time goodbye

[Ditto]

It's okay. I'd just as soon play regular Munchkin twice. You get into the end-game spite shenanigans sooner!

I don't understand why folks are giving themselves brainsplodes over this. Things like Kingworld are extremely powerful in extremely specific situations. And they are wholly supported by the pre-existing theories on turnamancy (per the wiki), even if we don't know 100% that's how it worked. The point is, at no point does something that has been categorically stated as IMPOSSIBLE directly occur in contravention of that authoritative statement.

I also don't see the difference between 'Erfworld is a game' and 'Erfworld is a game-like world' and 'Earth is a world that's like a game in that it has rules that govern its operation'. Rules are rules. Exceptions to those rules.... are exceptions to those rules. It's not super rocket science.

[BLANDCorporatio]

I don't understand why folks are giving themselves brainsplodes over this. Things like Kingworld are extremely powerful in extremely specific situations. And they are wholly supported by the pre-existing theories on turnamancy (per the wiki), even if we don't know 100% that's how it worked. The point is, at no point does something that has been categorically stated as IMPOSSIBLE directly occur in contravention of that authoritative statement.

I assure you that my brain is in one piece.

As for the rest of the post ... eh. Power issues were never the issue with Kingworld. But again, I'll let that discussion slide and try to forget anything like KW ever happened.

[haviel]

BLANDCorporatio wrote:

Just what/who are you referring to? Several/most of the vocal critics of the story lately (including yours truly) have been critical precisely for story reasons and not any game-play nonsense.

It is not about fairness.

It's about having meaningful, earned plot developments that fit into some coherent picture of the world. Note, I do not wish to go into that argument. AGAIN.

But if you do refer to it, please at least refer to it fairly.

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be plausable"

I guess I can understand your view on that spell.

To me it makes sense in the world narrative, and it challenges Parson. It sounds like the conflict that the story needs to keep going, and it has maintained the suspended disbelief. It felt like those who say "What a broken ____" were complaining for the wrong reasons. I probably wasn't giving those people a fair shake by basically saying "Erfworld is not a game, get over it" Sorry about that.

I guess in general, Magic as any kind of plot device, tends to need more licence then other devices. So the willingness of a viewer to give magic licence "Because its magic" can vary wildly. I'm an easy guy to please as long as the story has lots of conflict and a good narrative.

gazes_also wrote:

How many webcomics have you read? There are B&W 3-4 panel strips that can't keep up the pace at which Rob and Xin produce a full colour 12 panel pages plus text updates. These guys are outstanding.

I don't know what the exact schedule has been for the past three weeks (I know there's been stuff that's messed with his schedule, which is fine); but I've noticed that its one panel a week, as rob said it would be, and one text update a week. I don't see anything wrong with adding one more text update a week inbetween those two. And I read quite a few webcomics, there are comics that update every other day pretty much without fail. So should I judge Rob to that standard? No. I just want a little bit more; I'm supporting Erfworld by being a Tool and I agree with you that they're outstanding. One more text update a week isn't going to hurt anything.

[doran]

I don't know what the exact schedule has been for the past three weeks (I know there's been stuff that's messed with his schedule, which is fine); but I've noticed that its one panel a week, as rob said it would be, and one text update a week. I don't see anything wrong with adding one more text update a week inbetween those two. And I read quite a few webcomics, there are comics that update every other day pretty much without fail. So should I judge Rob to that standard? No. I just want a little bit more; I'm supporting Erfworld by being a Tool and I agree with you that they're outstanding. One more text update a week isn't going to hurt anything.

It may hurt the pacing, remember people reading the books won't get the text updates, so the story has to be readable without them.
Too many text updates compared to the number of pages would make the pacing seem slower. The updates are mainly based around people's reaction to the comic events.

[Ansan Gotti]

I don't understand why folks are giving themselves brainsplodes over this. Things like Kingworld are extremely powerful in extremely specific situations. And they are wholly supported by the pre-existing theories on turnamancy (per the wiki), even if we don't know 100% that's how it worked. The point is, at no point does something that has been categorically stated as IMPOSSIBLE directly occur in contravention of that authoritative statement.

There is a power issue IMO, in that there needs to be a rational explanation as to why Charlie doesn't just do this every other turn to someone (most likely GK right now), effectively crippling that side. Because that certainly seems like a feasible option in the absence of additional information.

I trust there will be a cost or restriction revealed in due course, but as of right now, I still don't care for the ability, either on a game mechanic level or a plot level. Again, however, that is just a leaning and I will reserve judgment until the end of Book Two.

[gazes_also]

There is a power issue IMO, in that there needs to be a rational explanation as to why Charlie doesn't just do this every other turn to someone (most likely GK right now), effectively crippling that side. Because that certainly seems like a feasible option in the absence of additional information.

I trust there will be a cost or restriction revealed in due course, but as of right now, I still don't care for the ability, either on a game mechanic level or a plot level. Again, however, that is just a leaning and I will reserve judgment until the end of Book Two.

I think a rational explanation from what we know is Charlie's character. Charlie is powerful, but he wants to control not rule. He hasn't done this before because he didn't need to. He uses just as much force as he feels he needs to and no more - that was his mistake in trying to get Parson, he underestimated him.

It's bad for business as a 'solutions provider' if your clients even suspect you could crush them like bugs.

It was only when he was faced two toolwielders wiping out his potential clients, and he thought they might be overstretched (as he suggested to Parson), and he had suitable bait for the trap that he exercised some real archentool power, oh and as a bonus he aimed to pick up a second tool . It's not about the power cost, it's about the elements of opportunity aligning, by careful planning and manipulation. Ever watch the British show "Hustle"? I picture Charlie as like Robert Vaughan in that.

As I have stated before, as a plot turn, I like it, but my preference is for 'locked room' type mysteries; where a seemingly impossible event must be unraveled, leading to the denouement, rather than being clearly set-up before. To me foreshadowing is often used to allow readers to feel superior to characters whom we watch blithely unknowingly stepping into situations we see coming "NOOO, don't go up to the attic of the spooky house where even the rats are too scared to go!"

[Lamech]

There is a power issue IMO, in that there needs to be a rational explanation as to why Charlie doesn't just do this every other turn to someone (most likely GK right now), effectively crippling that side. Because that certainly seems like a feasible option in the absence of additional information.

I trust there will be a cost or restriction revealed in due course, but as of right now, I still don't care for the ability, either on a game mechanic level or a plot level. Again, however, that is just a leaning and I will reserve judgment until the end of Book Two.

Well, there is the hiring of the caster, or two or three. There is the extra money they were probably charging. There may be the potential threat of the backlash heading Charlie's way or his dishes way. There is the fact it can't actually be spammed every turn, and we have no idea what other costs there might be (scrolls, turns, tying up the dish ect.). There is the fact all it really does is trap the enemy if you pick the right spot, and if its not in a city the attackers can just croak the caster, assuming it can be cast anywhere but a level 5 tower. There is the fact that it can be probably pretty well countered by a lookamancer checking cities before you attack.


Yeah its powerful, but I don't think its gamebreaking. I mean Charlie broke the link ASAP, somehow I think it has a large cost to use.

Not everyone thinks so, but it is clearly a reasonable possibility, as evidenced by Trammenis stating as such. Parson also obviously thinks that with Wanda, so go the decrypted. We have never seen what happens to an uncroaked unit if the croakamancer dies, but it's a fair guess that they disband, and that this is the basis for the supposition that the decrypted will also disband if the wielder of the 'Pliers who decrypted them dies. The circumstances are slightly different, and never before experienced, which is why even Erf residents are not certain.

If uncroaked disband with out the caster that definitly changes things. And they definitly should be hitting Wanda until she drops the pliers, as long as GK has those there is the potential for more decrypted.