Book 2 – Text Updates 018

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Joe Falco » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:56 pm

gazes_also wrote:I actually respect Charlie for being so direct here and letting the mask slip just a little. I suspect that even if Sammy does exactly as ordered some damage will be inflicted on Haggar; a ship sunk perhaps. One: to remove any doubt that he was not bluffing; and two: for payback.


I hope that if Charlie did do something like that in the future, it would be something akin to humiliating Sammy. Loss of units is one thing, but humiliation is a wound that remains long after anything else Erfworlders ever experience.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Schlock » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:06 pm

Aquillion wrote:Wait, wait, hold it.

Charlie is in the battlespace. As his own side.

Since he's unalligned, he goes at dawn.

He also sees it as vitally important that nobody else find out that he's there.

...does anyone else see the problem with this? If Charlie is going at dawn, that means that there is someone else who should be taking their turn at dawn... who isn't. And will be expecting to. And, therefore, will know, at the very least, that there is an unknown enemy in the battlespace with a turn before theirs.


I'd assume that's why Haggar suddenly re-stacked for veil piercing and told his people to watch the skies.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Zeku » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:41 pm

I'm not seeing the magnificence of this move.

In fact, it would ordinarily be pathetic and heavy-handed, exactly the kind of hands-on side-choosing that a diplomatic mercenary could be destroyed by. The only caveat here is that Sammy is a treacherous little rat, so speaking to him in terms that he can easily understand is probably the best way to handle him. Also, there is probably no attack force at Haggar. This is just a last second gambit to bail out Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby ftl » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:01 am

Schlock wrote:
I'd assume that's why Haggar suddenly re-stacked for veil piercing and told his people to watch the skies.


No, they did that when GK revealed that they had veiled their dwagons as siege stacks. We had a text update about that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:01 am

Zeku wrote:I'm not seeing the magnificence of this move.

In fact, it would ordinarily be pathetic and heavy-handed, exactly the kind of hands-on side-choosing that a diplomatic mercenary could be destroyed by. The only caveat here is that Sammy is a treacherous little rat, so speaking to him in terms that he can easily understand is probably the best way to handle him. Also, there is probably no attack force at Haggar. This is just a last second gambit to bail out Jillian.


The brilliance of this move is not that Charlie is making it, its that he CAN make it at all and with such gusto. He had an EXACT tally of Haggar's defenses, and not just in capital but within reach of the capital. Had he merely claimed the capital was vulnerable, then Sammy would be far less likely to swallow an ultimatum. Beyond that, you do make a point that this not Charlie's typical style and is more a move mandated by circumstances that a brilliant grab of opportunity.

On another note, I suspect Charlie routinely buzzes capitals with Archons to get a feel for their defenses, and since GK is patrolled by Archons itself who can detect any veiled units, he's blind on what's defending GK. Unless he hired a Lookamancer, maybe they could pull it off.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby splintermute » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:30 am

Aquillion wrote:Wait, wait, hold it.

Charlie is in the battlespace. As his own side.

Since he's unalligned, he goes at dawn.

He also sees it as vitally important that nobody else find out that he's there.

...does anyone else see the problem with this? If Charlie is going at dawn, that means that there is someone else who should be taking their turn at dawn... who isn't. And will be expecting to. And, therefore, will know, at the very least, that there is an unknown enemy in the battlespace with a turn before theirs.

You're right, and in this case the side that was expecting to take its turn at dawn, and didn't, is GK. Except according to Maggie, GK actually did start its turn at dawn.

There are four possible explanations:
1) back at the capital, since this battle is taking place outside of GK battlespace, the GKers really did experience start of turn at dawn. The GK forces around Jetstone experienced start of turn at some point after dawn, but didn't think it was worth mentioning
2) Charlie projected a super-powerful thinkamancy illusion (or he has an army of veiled archons projecting a super-powerful thinkamancy/foolamancy illusion) to make all the GK forces believe they were starting turn at dawn (unlikely, since he was apparently fully engaged in the link at the time)
3) the archons moved into position so quickly that Charlescomm was able to start and end turn in a matter of seconds, before anyone noticed
or
4) the updates are inconsistent and have finally begun to contradict each other.

I'm partial to 3).

Reclaimer wrote:Edit: My speculation regarding Archons' Leadership ability and the possibility of demotions is just that, but there's no overt evidence of them leading stacks. There's also no evidence of them not leading stacks. My idea is as impossible to prove as it is to disprove without further information from the comic itself, so feel free to ignore it. I just think it plays into my theory of Charlie as a control freak rather well, and the fact that they're the only exception to a rule is too curious to be completely coincidental.

There is evidence of them doing something leader-ish - the DDR in Book 1 required archons with the specific combination of dance fighting, leadership, and foolamancy.

I think there are two forms of leadership, or Erfers view leadership in two ways - there's the leadership bonus, which gives a combat bonus to led troops, and seems specific to warlords and to casters leading their created units; and there's a quality called "leadership" that distinguishes between stacks that are "led" and stacks that are "unled," which allows the "leader" to direct the actions of a "led" stack, and which enables "led" stacks to decide not to auto-attack - this form of "leadership" seems much more common than the leadership bonus form, and seems to be a property of all warlords, all casters (casters are considered Commanders), some archons, and maybe other unit types (nobles? courtiers? heirs? diplomats? scouts?).
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby fjolnir » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:26 am

There is of course a 5th option, that since charlie is allied at least partially with Faq, he goes on her turn, at least partially...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Lamech » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:30 am

GK didn't notice Charlie's turn? So, some how Charlie manipulated his turn to make it appear like he did not get a turn at all. Sorry, if this has been pointed out, but... turnamancer? In a super-powerful link?

Also since Charlie was also out of commision, I presume he was in the link-up. Thats a massive cost to Charlie, if someone starts bugging the other caster in the link about some inane detail, Charlie could eat backlash; worse, if someone was to start yelling out the caster's name? Big potential for damage. And even if Charlie can deflect the backlash, I doubt that will make him popular with casters.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:52 am

Oh very good. I'll say it again - I always enjoy seeing Charlie in action. Also rather interesting look at Archons again. I feel rather sorry for Hillery ending up like that, though it seems things are looking up because Charlie is on his game. Hopefully she'll live to fight another day.

I guess this is what he broke off contact with Jillian to deal with. Looks like Sammy is on board for now. I wonder what casters Haggar has though... and also it looks like the distance link up pretty much took up all the Arkendish's attention for the duration.

I doubt Charlie is in a position to actually carry out the attack on Haggar, but they wouldn't know that I'm guessing. It is these kind of situations that make having comprehensive intelligence a good thing.

I also liked the info of this foolamancy going on. The Archons could take steps to limit the likelihood of being spotted for example.

Lord Kasavin wrote:The brilliance of this move is not that Charlie is making it, its that he CAN make it at all and with such gusto. He had an EXACT tally of Haggar's defenses, and not just in capital but within reach of the capital. Had he merely claimed the capital was vulnerable, then Sammy would be far less likely to swallow an ultimatum. Beyond that, you do make a point that this not Charlie's typical style and is more a move mandated by circumstances that a brilliant grab of opportunity.


Indeed. And he did it with such style. I loved his ""Ambush?" said Charlie. He cleared his throat. "Capital idea, Highness. And funny you should mention it."" bit.

Lord Kasavin wrote:On another note, I suspect Charlie routinely buzzes capitals with Archons to get a feel for their defenses, and since GK is patrolled by Archons itself who can detect any veiled units, he's blind on what's defending GK. Unless he hired a Lookamancer, maybe they could pull it off.


And that would be useful information to have. I suspect many sides would pay a great deal to know what forces are in or about a capital, though I guess Charlie might not sell that information normally.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Kinda interesting though to see him (so far, I'll stick to what the story says before I revert to the theory that Charlie is David Bowie) so invested in this little campaign here. Makes you wonder just how big Erfworld is.


Well it is a rather special campaign that I think warrents closer attention, thanks to the tools and decryption. Even if Erfworld is truly massive it is easy to imagine Toolism and decryption effecting all of it if left unchecked.

Justyn wrote:And if Wanda can get to them before Charlescomm starts turn again, Gobwin Knob will get three new Decrypted Archons.


With the situation Wanda is in now I don't think she'll be going after Archons. And I don't think Charlie will let Sammy hang onto his injured prisoners, he'll have them released one way or another so Wanda shouldn't even be aware they are not to far away.

Taznak wrote:I have a distinct feeling these Archons are immensely weaker than the ones Parson had to fight with his Dwagons. I would have imagined six Archons could've easily wiped out Sammy's column from what I'd seen of them previously.


Well those dwagons were injured.

Plus they have different levels and different powersets. Sounds like these ones are used for spying and not combat. We did see one of GK's archons get dusted when they got fired on as well.

Casander wrote:For a smart guy, Charlie can be Very stupid.

People are going after GK because they are afraid of a particular Arkentool, and its potential to obliterate them. And here comes Charlie, putting a dagger to Haggar's neck, and expecting them to be happy about it, and not move to Heaven and Earth to prevent Charlie from EVER exerting that pressure again.

It may not happen this time, or even soon, but if THIS is how Charlie manipulates people, GK looks MUCH more attractive.


I don't know...

Charlie's Way: Hey I tried to be a bit subtle but the situation being what it is I need you to do something and and you will do it or else. And when you have done it you can go back to your normal lives and we need never interact again. Understood?

GK's Way: Hey, you can stay alive and serve us or we can kill you, decrypt your corpses and you can serve us. Understood?

I'd be inclined to resist both (depending on what Charlie needs and/or whether I agreed with Toolism or not) but GK definitely doesn't look more attractive.
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby atalex » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:21 am

Also, while Charlie was heavy-handed with Haggar, the only faction likely to be pissed at him for it is, well, Haggar. I suspect that if Slately learns that Charlie forced Haggar to be a contributing member of the RCC2 under threat of obliteration, he'll be perfectly fine with it and may even reconsider his earlier opposition to Charlie's participation in the RCC2. After all, it was pretty much the same strategy Ossomer used to bring Haggar to the table in the first place.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:31 am

Lamech wrote:GK didn't notice Charlie's turn? So, some how Charlie manipulated his turn to make it appear like he did not get a turn at all. Sorry, if this has been pointed out, but... turnamancer? In a super-powerful link?


Charlie's place in the turn order is naturally ahead of GK. TV also naturally goes before GK. Their turns must occur at some point in the world before GK, it only becomes noticeable I guess when units from different sides are in the same battlespace and that was how Maggie knew unallied Charlie wasn't present at the Bridge/Spacerock.

Charlie's Archons then aren't in the same battlespace as the GK forces it seems. They are in the same space as Haggar's forces. Haggar, being in the RCCII led by Jetstone goes on their turn, which is after both Charlescomm and GK. As I read it there is no reason why GK should have known anything special. Haggar maybe, but then they were always going going to be waiting till Jetstone began its turn, Jetstone due to the forces in its battlespace was always going to wait for GK to finish its turn.

Plus it does start out with "Charlie was formally allied with no side in this battlespace"....

The whole dawn business adds to the strangeness, but back in the summer updates Maggie tried to explain to Parson how the appearance of time could differ hex to hex, and that is wasn't uniform across hexes.

gazes_also wrote:Archons are as devoted to Charlie as the Decrypted are to Wanda - could the Decrypts be tuned back to Charlie? Is that a trick he's keeping up his sleeve, they are a kind of sleeper agents without even being aware of it? Either that or will their heads will explode like fembots due to the internal conflict if they are ordered to attack Archons?


If so it will also be an interesting question in terms of dwagons. If Wanda decrypted a dwagon would Stanley still be able to influence it? The Archons Parson spoke to still were influenced by their experiences in Charlescomm (in how they behaved) even if their loyalty is totally to Wanda.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Agreed. Of the mentioned lot, the most sympathetic.


Also agreed. I liked your bit about Hillery Clinton as well, more so since I honestly had to think for a minute of a Hillery that fit with the theme - Dr Pepper already got it, but I first thought Swank as well. Though I suspect if Charlie does have a Clinton like Archon she'd be found with his elite guard Archons.

The Black Hand wrote:Ah, but it's the ability to use that unlimited information and power intelligently that separates the Magnificent Bastard from your typical Near-Omniscient Villain/Hero.


Indeed. And Charlie isn't always all knowing. He got a bloody nose and a battered rep out of TBfGK, but when he is on his game and using what he knows smartly he is a bit of a MB.

Dr Pepper wrote:I also think that Charlie deliberately sacrificed his toys to the Red Rocker, figuring that this was the only way he could communicate without being immediately hung up on.


Well he had them in position before it seems he knew he'd need to communicate (assuming he is pointing Sammy towards helping Jillian). I guess he could be covering his bases, gathering intelligence to ensure everything will go off without a hitch, but I don't think he intended for his Archons to die.

raphfrk wrote:That Charlie is wouldn't be willing to pay that for the return of an Archon? If they cost 500 per turn, then that would be 20 turns cost, that doesn't seem unreasonable.


Hehe, there is japery going on.

But yes, over 9000 ( ;) ) Shmucker for an Archon would be reasonable, especially with the experience/lvls/skillsets she might have. It might be like balancing paying to get back, say, a lv 3 Archon with leadership and shockmancy or not paying and popping one at lv 1 that needs however long to gain lvls and skills again.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Oberon » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:45 am

splintermute wrote:
Oberon wrote:A turn is a day. So this would be better phrased "This could take hours or even Turns."

A turn is not a day - a day is the sum of all the turns of all the sides in a battlespace. Every side gets one turn per day, [...]
Fine. You are correct, but picking your nit changes nothing about the point I was making. ;)
Reclaimer wrote:Let's not forget that the 'dish also lets him give his Leadership bonus to units abroad.
This, and the following paragraph which I snipped, is pure speculation. Unless you can provide a reference? I recall nothing which suggests that Charlie provides a leadership bonus via the 'Dish.
Reclaimer wrote:Edit: Just a speculation. As Oberon has pointed out, some Archons do have natural Leadership abilities. Normally this would automatically make them Warlords. However, I believe that Charlie would demote them back to Knight-class because he is obsessive-compulsive and cannot stand the thought of somebody else playing with his toys.
Huh? Having an Archon with the random Leadership bonus is a valuable means to make up for the fact that Charlie apparently pops no Warlords. There is nothing which suggests that he'd be stupid enough to deliberately hamper this happy counter to his own obscure practice of refusing to pop Warlords.
Aquillion wrote:Wait, wait, hold it.

Charlie is in the battlespace. As his own side.

Since he's unalligned, he goes at dawn.

He also sees it as vitally important that nobody else find out that he's there.

...does anyone else see the problem with this? If Charlie is going at dawn, that means that there is someone else who should be taking their turn at dawn... who isn't. And will be expecting to. And, therefore, will know, at the very least, that there is an unknown enemy in the battlespace with a turn before theirs.
Very good point!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Raza » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:53 am

Aquillion wrote:Wait, wait, hold it.

Charlie is in the battlespace. As his own side.

Since he's unalligned, he goes at dawn.

He also sees it as vitally important that nobody else find out that he's there.

...does anyone else see the problem with this? If Charlie is going at dawn, that means that there is someone else who should be taking their turn at dawn... who isn't. And will be expecting to. And, therefore, will know, at the very least, that there is an unknown enemy in the battlespace with a turn before theirs.

This might not be a problem, depending on how battlespace overlap works. If the RCC is in a battlespace with Charlescomm and Gobwin Knob, and Gobwin Knob is in a battlespace with the RCC but not Charlescomm, then nobody that expected to go at dawn will fail to.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby build6 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:57 am

hrm, so basically the archons regard Charlie the way cultists do their guru?

that's really freaky and it really drives home how wrong the whole Charlie-archon side is...

I was gonna say I hope Charlie gets whacked, but I don't see how that's gonna happen without a lot of dead archons, so ... erfworld sucks. Janice was right, it needs Parson to break it.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Raza » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:03 am

Iunno. Although fanatical devotion is really easy to abuse, it's not morally wrong per se, and sometimes you just get it thrown into your lap for doing what you'd be doing anyway. And since erfworld has inescapable hierarchies woven into its very physics, it seems a lot less relevant there than it does in our reality, where hierarchy exists only in our minds and devotion is the glue that holds it together.

Seems to me it makes their lives more pleasant by removing the difference between what they might want to do and what they're forced to, if anything.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Dahak » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:51 am

Aquillion wrote:Wait, wait, hold it.

Charlie is in the battlespace. As his own side.

Since he's unalligned, he goes at dawn.

He also sees it as vitally important that nobody else find out that he's there.

...does anyone else see the problem with this? If Charlie is going at dawn, that means that there is someone else who should be taking their turn at dawn... who isn't. And will be expecting to. And, therefore, will know, at the very least, that there is an unknown enemy in the battlespace with a turn before theirs.


Barbarian units also go at dawn. I'm not sure GK would be able to tell how much delay is Charlie taking a quick move and how much is recently popped Dragons and Gobwins running about.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:04 pm

Lamech wrote:GK didn't notice Charlie's turn? So, some how Charlie manipulated his turn to make it appear like he did not get a turn at all. Sorry, if this has been pointed out, but... turnamancer? In a super-powerful link?


... MUST ... resist ... urge to comment ...

Anyway, back to the turn-at-dawn moment.

This might be an inconsistency in the updates; it's not that unlikely. The minute you play around with something else than a rigid location-independent turn order, you open yourself to problems whether you use notes or not.

In this case, maybe it can be explained, within the rule system that we (think we) understand, by saying that Charlie did not, in fact, have any units in any hex common with GK. Some form of simultaneous turn resolution would then apply, just as it applies to GK and The Steam Gentlemen living on the other side of the Erfworld doughnut that we do not see or care about.

This way we don't have to make recourse to "a wizard (link) did it".

(Though, battlespace ... a better definition of "my battlespace" is the area of hexes I can reach now given all the move and move-enhancement my units have; so rather than sharing occupied hexes, sharing battlespace would also mean sharing presently empty hexes that are potentially reachable).

And on the Archon Leadership thing, we know (some) Archons have leadership (they said so to Parson), they can and did lead units before (DDR), they can form stacks without warlords that nonetheless do not auto-attack (is that due to a scouting ability however?) so it's not unreasonable to expect them to control themselves without other leadership and maybe even provide bonuses to each other.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby kagato23 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:20 pm

Regarding leadership, I think that it is leaderless stacks that have to auto-attack, not warlord stacks. You just need somebody with leadership ability. Note for example that casters can lead a stack. So if an archon has a leader in stack, they can choose not to engage. I have to assume that with a decent amount who get this as a random skill when they start, that it works well. If a warlord or caster was necessary, you'd see a lot less stacks in the game.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Jindra34 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:25 pm

To all those who were calling Charlie an idiot for essentially wrangling Sammy into this through threat of a capital strike, remember in doing so Charlie also showed that he could have pulled a capital strike at close to any time after the march began thus eliminating a royal side. It may be a brutal tactic but it also showed that Charlie is still rather mercenary, and not aligned with Stanley. Thus while not perfect for Charlie, it still undermines the rumors that King Slately is spreading.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 018

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:40 pm

build6 wrote:hrm, so basically the archons regard Charlie the way cultists do their guru?

that's really freaky and it really drives home how wrong the whole Charlie-archon side is...

I was gonna say I hope Charlie gets whacked, but I don't see how that's gonna happen without a lot of dead archons, so ... erfworld sucks. Janice was right, it needs Parson to break it.


I don't know if it is that bad or if Charlie would see the situation like that. Despite being attuned to a tool and with all the power that comes from being a ruler he is a total recluse in his own city and doesn't seem to see himself as divinely anything (judging from his discussion with Parson on toolism).

We've seen how one Archon felt in a bad situation and it did sound rather like a big crush. And Hillery will certainly have never seen Charlie and would know virtually nothing about him/her/it... I guess it isn't that different from the way decrypted feel towards Wanda, if Ansom's feelings towards her are standard across all the decrypted.

Heh, although then again it could be a funny take on the kind of themes that so frequently pop up in songs sung by these Archons namesakes.

1Luv wrote:Does anyone else think that perhaps hilary has not just loyalty, but love for Charlie?and that the two are actually different things?


Well we know Erfworlders do fall in love. Bunny and Caesar, Jillian + three major characters (not counting Jack's unrequited love)... I think it is fair to say something more then normal loyalty is going on I'm not sure love love is it based on just this (though hey, it could be, but Hillery has never even met Charlie).

We have seen that rulers like Don King, Stanley and Slately have the loyalty of their followers and inspire different amounts of fear, respect or admiration in them, but love definitely isn't ensured. It is possible the dish is behind this, like the pliers are with the decrypted, inspiring higher feelings of devotion from those units influenced by them towards the attuned.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:... MUST ... resist ... urge to comment ...


You can do it!

In this case, maybe it can be explained, within the rule system that we (think we) understand, by saying that Charlie did not, in fact, have any units in any hex common with GK. Some form of simultaneous turn resolution would then apply, just as it applies to GK and The Steam Gentlemen living on the other side of the Erfworld doughnut that we do not see or care about.


That is what I think. Every side has a turn every day, and if Charlie's turn is before GK's then it is before GK's and it will always happen. Just like all those sides we haven't seen that must have there turns as well. It is just when multiple sides are active in a battlespace different turns become so noticeably ordered and give away who has forces there. Maggie saying GK's turn started like that just meant there were no Charlescomm units in battlespaces where GK is present, not that Charlie's turn hadn't occurred.

I guess it comes down to how large battlespaces are or how they are defined. Haggar's column must be outside the battlespace Wanda's forces are in otherwise GK would have known. Unless like has been suggested he had a lightening fast move that GK might not have picked up, but that seems like quite a commitment from Charlie - turn time is a vital commodity, to end one so quickly...

Dahak wrote:Barbarian units also go at dawn. I'm not sure GK would be able to tell how much delay is Charlie taking a quick move and how much is recently popped Dragons and Gobwins running about.


Hmmm, barbarians. Looking at it again I notice it says "Charlescomm was formally allied with no side in this battlespace, and so the six of them had taken their turn at dawn." "Their turn"? It almost sounds as if that group of Archons had its own distinctive turn... heh, I think I'm just reading too much into how it is phrased.

I guess that might just be indicating Charlie isn't formally allied with Jillian, or if he is it doesn't bind him in any way, shape or form to the rest RCCII otherwise he couldn't have taken his natural turn in the order.
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